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Could more Class 395s be ordered?

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rdlover777

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Hi all, yesterday me and one of my friends were discussing HS1 and they jokingly brought up that Southeastern should order Class 800s for use on HS1 to which i replied that they'd realistically order more class 395s This got me thinking, the Class 395 design is about 12 years old now, could SE (or what ever GBR call it now) actually be able to order brand new 395s or would they have to order models based of the 80X body shell like the units First are using for its ECML toc?
 
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4SubAsociation

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Simple answer is no.

I was informed this back in 2017 by a Hitachi rep. The reason they cannot is due to it would against government procurement policy (iep).

The rep did say at the time (2009 ish) they wanted south eastern to order more as they felt it would not cover the service diagram, but that was not the case.
 

hexagon789

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Hi all, yesterday me and one of my friends were discussing HS1 and they jokingly brought up that Southeastern should order Class 800s for use on HS1 to which i replied that they'd realistically order more class 395s This got me thinking, the Class 395 design is about 12 years old now, could SE (or what ever GBR call it now) actually be able to order brand new 395s or would they have to order models based of the 80X body shell like the units First are using for its ECML toc?
I suppose it depends whether the 395s were built to the latest crash standards as to whether you could get exact 'replicas' so to speak. Otherwise an updated design from the AT300 family would be possible.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Hi all, yesterday me and one of my friends were discussing HS1 and they jokingly brought up that Southeastern should order Class 800s for use on HS1 to which i replied that they'd realistically order more class 395s This got me thinking, the Class 395 design is about 12 years old now, could SE (or what ever GBR call it now) actually be able to order brand new 395s or would they have to order models based of the 80X body shell like the units First are using for its ECML toc?

Sadly, no. Far too old now. I read something a few years ago which said they could not now order more
 

Mikey C

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SE definitely could do with some more highspeed stock, especially if any of the suggested extensions (e.g. to Hastings) ever happen

It's quite a specialised train, 140mph on HS1, switching to 3rd rail as it trundles along the classic lines, so different requirements from the 80x. Only 20m also
 

JamesT

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SE definitely could do with some more highspeed stock, especially if any of the suggested extensions (e.g. to Hastings) ever happen

It's quite a specialised train, 140mph on HS1, switching to 3rd rail as it trundles along the classic lines, so different requirements from the 80x. Only 20m also
Are there diagrams that remain solely on HS1? So you could buy new stock and reserve it for the high speed runs and the 395s could work those that need to go onto the classic lines?
 

notadriver

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Are there diagrams that remain solely on HS1? So you could buy new stock and reserve it for the high speed runs and the 395s could work those that need to go onto the classic lines?

no HS1 only work on a full diagram except engineering works.
 

tbtc

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Give them enough money to justify a big enough order and I'm sure they could come up with a "396" (something very similar but not identical)

Worth remembering what a success the 395s and HS1 have been - I'm old enough to remember the days that many of them were sat idle, with the suspicion that they only ordered so many of them to tick the box of conveying huge numbers of people for a few weeks of the London Olympics, and they were a waste of money, HS1 would never take off, people wouldn't be willing to pay a premium for it, passengers only wanted to travel to Charing Cross etc - they've done really well in reality.
 

AM9

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SE definitely could do with some more highspeed stock, especially if any of the suggested extensions (e.g. to Hastings) ever happen

It's quite a specialised train, 140mph on HS1, switching to 3rd rail as it trundles along the classic lines, so different requirements from the 80x. Only 20m also
It's quite specialised in that it's the only true HS train that has 3rd rail shoes (now they have been removes from the 373s). In terms of their basic components, I would imagine that an equivalent 2020's version could be fabricated by Hitachi if it was worth their while. Maybe not a 20m body, - however they were quick enough to come up with a 23m 'ish body for the 810s when all the other current UK AT300s have 26m ones. For HS1/SE use there wouldn't be any need to find space to mount gensets between the bogies.
Depending on whether a DC bus is standard for the range, fitting shoes and extra switchgear is unlikely to be that difficult, and it's normal for modern dual voltage EMUs to have their power draw clipped to make them compliant with the sub-standard 3rd rail system.
 

JonathanH

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Perhaps Hitachi would be interested if it could be part of a whole Networker replacement package.
That is a bit tail wagging the dog though isn't it. They have happily built five 802s for Hull Trains to lease and five 803s for East Coast Trains to lease without it being part of an non-associated order for metro stock.

It would seem to come down to whether more stock can actually be used.
* How many spare paths are there out of St Pancras at peak times?
* Are those trains already at full length?
* Is it possible to extend any of the existing services to run further?
 

py_megapixel

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That is a bit tail wagging the dog though isn't it. They have happily built five 802s for Hull Trains to lease and five 803s for East Coast Trains to lease without it being part of an non-associated order for metro stock.
Though if they could get the cab design done properly and adapt them to run on third rail, a fleet of appropriate-length 385s with a slightly different interior configuration would probably be perfect for SE.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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On what planet do we need more commuter stock into London, beyond that already on order?
Is the current 395 fleet unduly stretched?
There is no requirement for 140mph commuter services elsewhere (although HS2 might generate some, eg Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool).
The 80x EMU platform would be just as suitable and of more recent design.
There's also the new dedicated high-speed platform for HS2 stock, whose manufacturer is still to be decided.
 

py_megapixel

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What's wrong with Aventras or whatever standard 110mph EMU platform is on the go by then?
Nothing (apart from the fact that most of the orders for them have been extremely late due to software issues).

But if an all-Hitachi fleet was desired then it would make sense - mainly in reference to this comment:
Perhaps Hitachi would be interested if it could be part of a whole Networker replacement package.
 

RobShipway

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Nothing (apart from the fact that most of the orders for them have been extremely late due to software issues).

But if an all-Hitachi fleet was desired then it would make sense - mainly in reference to this comment:
Ah yes. But then the relevant offering would be the AT200?
Bombardier (Now Alstom) had previous proposed a bi-mode 125mph version of Aventra which I believe which would have been a successor to some diesel units such as Turbostar or Voyager units back in 2018. I am not sure that they would be able to do a version that would be able to do 140mph plus though on HS1/HS2.
 

AM9

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Bombardier (Now Alstom) had previous proposed a bi-mode 125mph version of Aventra which I believe which would have been a successor to some diesel units such as Turbostar or Voyager units back in 2018. I am not sure that they would be able to do a version that would be able to do 140mph plus though on HS1/HS2.
Why would an addition to the HS1 domestic fleet need to be bi-mode?
 

Aictos

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Why would an addition to the HS1 domestic fleet need to be bi-mode?
Extending to Hastings maybe but that's a mute point simply because the layout at Ashford International doesn't allow for it unless of course you wish to remodel the station area to allow it?
 

RobShipway

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Why would an addition to the HS1 domestic fleet need to be bi-mode?
Well, I am following on from those that posted before me. But, an example would be extending services from Ashford to say Hastings as others have mentioned. I cannot see the line between Ashford and Hastings being electrified.
 

AM9

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Well, I am following on from those that posted before me. But, an example would be extending services from Ashford to say Hastings as others have mentioned. I cannot see the line between Ashford and Hastings being electrified.
If there is sufficient demand for through journeys between Stratford/St Pancras and stations on the Marshlink line then electrification of the line would the appropriate long term solution. If not then a shuttle as now but maybe battery or other prime energy source should be used.
Cluttering up HS1 with bi-modes dragging diesel gensets would be the least satisfactory solution. This thread is about providing more trains intended for HS1 domestic services to supplement the 395s.
 

RobShipway

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If there is sufficient demand for through journeys between Stratford/St Pancras and stations on the Marshlink line then electrification of the line would the appropriate long term solution. If not then a shuttle as now but maybe battery or other prime energy source should be used.
Cluttering up HS1 with bi-modes dragging diesel gensets would be the least satisfactory solution. This thread is about providing more trains intended for HS1 domestic services to supplement the 395s.
Who said that the bi-mode would have diesel gensets. The trains may replace diesel gensets, but if it is carrying anything around it would be batteries that would have charged up from using the overhead wires on HS1.
 

Meerkat

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Can St Pancras handle anymore passengers? That SE gate line is far too small!
 

AM9

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Who said that the bi-mode would have diesel gensets. The trains may replace diesel gensets, but if it is carrying anything around it would be batteries that would have charged up from using the overhead wires on HS1.
So batteries could be even heavier than gensets. Almost 28 miles and six intermediate stops with the equipment that can keep to 140mph paths could require quite a lot of battery reserve.
 

notadriver

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I don’t think there’s enough passengers to justify a direct service to Hastings - especially post covid.

How about a speed up of services to Folkestone and Dover by building a flying junction at Saltwood junction connecting the classic lines to the HS lines?
 

Meerkat

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The Hastings thing has died with the departure of the marginal government MP surely?
Hastings already has a direct service to London, if there is money just electrify the line to improve the local service to Ashford rather than have expensive HS trains trundling across the marshes.
 

JonathanH

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I don’t think there’s enough passengers to justify a direct service to Hastings - especially post covid.
Not least because it requires major infrastructure work at Ashford beyond the choice of traction equipment.

How about a speed up of services to Folkestone and Dover by building a flying junction at Saltwood junction connecting the classic lines to the HS lines?
Is that with the Ashford stop dropped? Do Dover, Folkestone and the coast stations have enough demand to support that?

The Hastings thing has died with the departure of the marginal government MP surely?
Probably when someone pointed out it can't realistically be done (which seems a shame but appears to be fact).
 

D365

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Well, I am following on from those that posted before me. But, an example would be extending services from Ashford to say Hastings as others have mentioned. I cannot see the line between Ashford and Hastings being electrified.
We had this discussion recently, it was pointed out that the trackwork at Ashford would need very significant alteration.
 

rdlover777

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We had this discussion recently, it was pointed out that the trackwork at Ashford would need very significant alteration.
iirc, the work would require a rebuild of a junction at the western end and platform 2 getting fitted with 25KV lines
 
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