Could Freightliner Class 86s and/or 90s be fitted with batteries?

[Class15]

I’m not sure how much it would cost to add batteries to class 86s and 90s but they would not be powerful so I wouldn’t think too much. A battery system would allow them to get into London Gateway and possibly even Felixstowe as well as shunt at terminals without the need for shunters. What are your thoughts on this idea? Thanks.

 

[The Planner]

I’m not sure how much it would cost to add batteries to class 86s and 90s but they would not be powerful so I wouldn’t think too much. A battery system would allow them to get into London Gateway and possibly even Felixstowe as well as shunt at terminals without the need for shunters. What are your thoughts on this idea? Thanks.

Only thing getting added to Class 86s is a cutting torch.

 

[Class15]

Only thing getting added to Class 86s is a cutting torch.

When was this announced? Last I heard they were still at Basford Hall.

 

[The Planner]

When was this announced? Last I heard they were still at Basford Hall.

They are all sat there in a line last time I went by. I doubt they are going to get any use at all.

 

[zwk500]

Yeah I wouldn't have thought 60-odd year old electrics would be particularly ripe for a conversion, even if the internals have been modernised in the meantime. However if there's room in a 90 for a battery pack allowing a couple of hours of lower-speed running it'd be quite handy to avoid the eternal problem of how to put overhead wire in for an overhead loading train.

 

[Whistler40145]

The Class 86s are life expired

 

[Class15]

Yeah I wouldn't have thought 60-odd year old electrics would be particularly ripe for a conversion, even if the internals have been modernised in the meantime. However if there's room in a 90 for a battery pack allowing a couple of hours of lower-speed running it'd be quite handy to avoid the eternal problem of how to put overhead wire in for an overhead loading train.

That’s fair, although the fact that they are old means that if it was a failure it wouldn’t ruin good locos.

The Class 86s are life expired

They would’ve continued had it not been for the GA 90s…

 

[Whistler40145]

Spares for the Class 86s would run out or be hard to obtain

 

[zwk500]

That’s fair, although the fact that they are old means that if it was a failure it wouldn’t ruin good locos.

They would’ve continued had it not been for the GA 90s…

No, the 86's were dead. They'd continued for as long as they had waiting for the GA 90s to relieve them. Remember the 86s were built for the WCRM in the 60s, whereas 90s were built from the late 80s

 

[Spartacus]

Probably need new Co-Co bogies too to spread the additional weight.

 

[edwin_m]

I doubt there's room for any more than a fairly small battery without removing the transformer, which would make them unable to operate or re-charge from 25kV. The 86s are controlled via a tap changer on the transformer, and the 90s have phase angle control, either of which would need total replacement with something that could be fed from a DC power source.

 

[Bald Rick]

No chance. The traction system would need complete redesign and replacement between the transformer and the traction motors exclusive. And then there’s the weight. You’d need around 1MWh of battery to do a round trip to Felixstowe and shunting with some contingency. That’s 8-10 tonnes extra.

 

[Class15]

No chance. The traction system would need complete redesign and replacement between the transformer and the traction motors exclusive. And then there’s the weight. You’d need around 1MWh of battery to do a round trip to Felixstowe and shunting with some contingency. That’s 8-10 tonnes extra.

London Gateway is less and that’s what the suggestion was for

 

[zwk500]

London Gateway is less and that’s what the suggestion was for

But you've missed the larger point that any battery of any size will trigger the complete gutting and rebuild of the traction system.

Class 90s are getting on for 35-40 years old, digging into their innards is perhaps not an effective use of time and money when current manufacturers are offering perfectly acceptable products in the form of 88s, 93s and 99s.

 

[JKF]

Could a ‘battery wagon’ be produced that could be coupled behind an electric locomotive and connected via jumper cables of some kind to provide power? Or does that get complicated when running round the train? I guess if it was like a brake tender then it could stay on the front without obstructing the view. What voltage would this need to be for compatibility, assuming 25kV isn’t practical (presume in locomotives this is stepped down via a transformer - is the stepped down voltage consistent across different locomotive classes?)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Only thing getting added to Class 86s is a cutting torch.
They are all sat there in a line last time I went by. I doubt they are going to get any use at all.
The Class 86s are life expired

No, the 86's were dead. They'd continued for as long as they had waiting for the GA 90s to relieve them. Remember the 86s were built for the WCRM in the 60s, whereas 90s were from the late 80s

not happening

 

[Bald Rick]

London Gateway is less and that’s what the suggestion was for

You did say ‘possibly even Felixstowe’ in your OP.

And the FOCs aren’t going to want to investment big bucks in a rebuild for something that only benefits a a small proportion of their work.

 

[The Planner]

not happening

What isn't? The 86s being knackered and having no real use anymore?

 

[gg1]

Could a ‘battery wagon’ be produced that could be coupled behind an electric locomotive and connected via jumper cables of some kind to provide power? Or does that get complicated when running round the train? I guess if it was like a brake tender then it could stay on the front without obstructing the view. What voltage would this need to be for compatibility, assuming 25kV isn’t practical (presume in locomotives this is stepped down via a transformer - is the stepped down voltage consistent across different locomotive classes?)

Theoretically I suppose you could converted a DVT into a battery box and have it semi-permanently coupled to an appropriately converted loco, eliminating the need to run round.

Whether it's worth the expense of doing so for a 1980s loco is another matter (I'm discounting 86s entirely at this point).

 

[D365]

surely fitting ETCS to the Class 90s would be a more pressing matter…

 

[Class15]

surely fitting ETCS to the Class 90s would be a more pressing matter…

Why? The WCML, NLL and GEML are not planned for ETCS?

 

[zwk500]

Why? The WCML, NLL and GEML are not planned for ECS.

All of them see Empty coaching stock every day And the WCML North was talked about getting ETCS at the next major resignalling in connection with HS2, as well as the general point that at some point it will get rolled out quite widely.

 

[Class15]

as well as the general point that at some point it will get rolled out quite widely…

…by which point the 90s will have gone.

 

[zwk500]

…by which point the 90s will have gone.

The 90s are 25 years younger than the locos they replaced. They've got time left. Fitting ETCS is not as difficult a job as fitting batteries to the traction system as described above.
As electrification creeps upwards, 90s will find more roles.

 

[Class15]

The 90s are 25 years younger than the locos they replaced. They've got time left.

I meant that ETCS will take a long time to be fully completed. The NLL could take a long time as cash-starved TfL won’t be keen on fitting costly equipment to 378s.

Fitting ETCS is not as difficult a job as fitting batteries to the traction system as described above.
As electrification creeps upwards, 90s will find more roles.

Based on how little they’re used south of Crewe I wouldn’t be confident. Especially with terminals on the GWML and ECML not being wired.

 

[zwk500]

I meant that ETCS will take a long time to be fully completed. The NLL could take a long time as cash-starved TfL won’t be keen on fitting costly equipment to 378s.

NLL is likely to wait a while as it interacts with so many other areas, but it is also where ETCS benefits would be most keenly felt. 378s are Electrostars, and the GW and ECML families of Electrostars are being fitted for ETCS now (or already have it). There will be a small first-in-class adjustment for the 378s but it won't be a total redesign.

Based on how little they’re used south of Crewe I wouldn’t be confident. Especially with terminals on the GWML and ECML not being wired.

Operators want to use electric traction. The issue at the moment is that full diagrams can't be done on electric. It will take time, but I imagine the Class 90s can last a while longer than they would have if they had continued running at 100/110mph day in day out.

 

[43096]

I meant that ETCS will take a long time to be fully completed. The NLL could take a long time as cash-starved TfL won’t be keen on fitting costly equipment to 378s.

TfL wouldn’t be paying for the installation, it would be funded via the ETCS implementation project as it is a network change.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What isn't? The 86s being knackered and having no real use anymore?

The 86s being used for batteries/Hydrogen/bionic duckweed, is not happening. Being used for razor blades is more likely.

 

[D365]

Fitting ETCS is not as difficult a job as fitting batteries to the traction system as described above.

At a technical level, certainly not, but I’ll bite my tongue now before I get into the politics!

 

[Welly]

Could a ‘battery wagon’ be produced that could be coupled behind an electric locomotive and connected via jumper cables of some kind to provide power?

I had one of these on my Lego train set decades ago! Would love to see the reversing switch in use at stations! https://www.brickeconomy.com/set/1106-1/lego-battery-tender-for-trains