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Could Bolton get a better express service?

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Philip

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Why is the service to Scotland from Bolton so sparse when there is a pick up/set down restriction there? I'd have thought this would enable all services to stop at Bolton, but they don't and even some off peak services don't stop there. The 10:07 off Man Airport doesn't stop, the 12:07 does but then the 14:07 doesn't again. I think the southbound service pattern is similar.

Is there any reason for this? It's strange too that Penrith isn't served in some hours.
 
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route101

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I was thinking that too. Most of the Glasgow TPEs are only running to Preston too, Edinburgh's seem to running through to Manchester.
 

Ianno87

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Why is the service to Scotland from Bolton so sparse when there is a pick up/set down restriction there? I'd have thought this would enable all services to stop at Bolton, but they don't and even some off peak services don't stop there. The 10:07 off Man Airport doesn't stop, the 12:07 does but then the 14:07 doesn't again. I think the southbound service pattern is similar.

Is there any reason for this? It's strange too that Penrith isn't served in some hours.

Hangover from pre-Covid - restricting to pick ups / set downs on the busiest trains.
 

Liverpool 507

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Why is the service to Scotland from Bolton so sparse when there is a pick up/set down restriction there? I'd have thought this would enable all services to stop at Bolton, but they don't and even some off peak services don't stop there. The 10:07 off Man Airport doesn't stop, the 12:07 does but then the 14:07 doesn't again. I think the southbound service pattern is similar.

Is there any reason for this? It's strange too that Penrith isn't served in some hours.

It isn’t always easy to have the same stations called at for each service. There will be pathing restrictions preventing each service from calling at Bolton and Penrith North Lakes, with the latter also interlinking with Avanti West Coast services which also call selectively at Penrith North Lakes.
 

Philip

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It isn’t always easy to have the same stations called at for each service. There will be pathing restrictions preventing each service from calling at Bolton and Penrith North Lakes, with the latter also interlinking with Avanti West Coast services which also call selectively at Penrith North Lakes.

There are paths for every service to stop at Bolton, Penrith is more understandable since it interlinks with the Avanti service. But now there doesn't seem to be any reason why they all can't stop at Bolton, particularly with the set down and pick up restrictions.
 

geoffk

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There are paths for every service to stop at Bolton, Penrith is more understandable since it interlinks with the Avanti service. But now there doesn't seem to be any reason why they all can't stop at Bolton, particularly with the set down and pick up restrictions.
Surely no need for the picking up/setting down restrictions either with so few travelling. Hopefully TPE will review this when travel picks up again and confine it to evening peak departures from Manchester.
 

Philip

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Will the new timetable see TPE stopping all of their Edinburgh and Glasgow services at Bolton? I can see the point about needing pick up and set down restrictions in busy times, but it's a bit of a mess only stopping some but not others. Avanti serve Wigan at least hourly with their own Scottish services, so why do TPE not do the same with Bolton?
 

bengley

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Will the new timetable see TPE stopping all of their Edinburgh and Glasgow services at Bolton? I can see the point about needing pick up and set down restrictions in busy times, but it's a bit of a mess only stopping some but not others. Avanti serve Wigan at least hourly with their own Scottish services, so why do TPE not do the same with Bolton?
Avanti stopping at Wigan isn't even comparable to TPE at Bolton.
 

cle

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The London/Birmingham-Scotland is not a commuter route or purpose for Wigan, the Bolton TPE one ostensibly is.
 

Bletchleyite

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The London/Birmingham-Scotland is not a commuter route or purpose for Wigan, the Bolton TPE one ostensibly is.

Depends if they carry passengers between Manchester and Bolton or not; in the past they haven't. The commuter demand between Bolton and Preston is probably similar to between Wigan and Preston.
 

Ianno87

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Depends if they carry passengers between Manchester and Bolton or not; in the past they haven't. The commuter demand between Bolton and Preston is probably similar to between Wigan and Preston.

Pre-2013 (after which they were diverted via Chat Moss), Airport-Scotland stops at Bolton were fully open in both directions, as were Virgin XC calls pre-2007.
 

cle

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Yes folks will use them in many ways, but my real point is that Preston is not Manchester, as a destination.

Plus it is halfway through the journey, vs Bolton-Manchester being close to the terminus, with those conflicting flows.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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The commuter demand between Bolton and Preston is probably similar to between Wigan and Preston.

No, it really isn't. Rather more intermediate stations on the Chorley route for a starter. And places like Buckshaw, Chorley and Adlington generate traffic both ways. Whereas Euxton Balshaw Lane is rather lightly used full stop. If it wasn't for the need to maintain freight paths on the WCML I suspect TPE performance would be better running via Chat Moss.
 

Bletchleyite

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No, it really isn't. Rather more intermediate stations on the Chorley route for a starter. And places like Buckshaw, Chorley and Adlington generate traffic both ways. Whereas Euxton Balshaw Lane is rather lightly used full stop. If it wasn't for the need to maintain freight paths on the WCML I suspect TPE performance would be better running via Chat Moss.

None of which are really relevant to journeys actually between Bolton and Preston/Wigan and Preston, though. The intermediates have little to do with the service under discussion.
 

cle

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I wonder if a 4/6tph metro service from Preston to Manchester (Vic/Picc up for debate, likely the former) - via Bolton would be a good shout. Electric, all stations, slower for some like Chorley but overall more frequent and lessened journey time on average, including waits. And it could use bays/no crossing moves at Preston.

With fast services to Lancs and Scotland to run via Chat Moss. Blackpool services could run as extensions, or as a pair of fasts via Wigan, with connections at Preston from Liverpool (this could be upped), London and York.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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None of which are really relevant to journeys actually between Bolton and Preston/Wigan and Preston, though. The intermediates have little to do with the service under discussion.

Then let me put it another way. Preston bound traffic from both Bolton and Wigan doesn't add up to much and is more than adequately covered by non-TPE services.
 

Bletchleyite

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Then let me put it another way. Preston bound traffic from both Bolton and Wigan doesn't add up to much and is more than adequately covered by non-TPE services.

Which was my exact point. If you put the Bolton stop in northbound, the train won't fill with commuters, therefore why not put it in to allow for Scotland travel?
 

Philip

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No, it really isn't. Rather more intermediate stations on the Chorley route for a starter. And places like Buckshaw, Chorley and Adlington generate traffic both ways. Whereas Euxton Balshaw Lane is rather lightly used full stop. If it wasn't for the need to maintain freight paths on the WCML I suspect TPE performance would be better running via Chat Moss.

But that would mean no Scotland services at Bolton and it is a reasonable market, enough to justify an hourly service. By adding pick up and set down restrictions, you remove the potential problem of local commuters filling up the trains.
 

WatcherZero

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As someone who was regularly leaving Manchester in Peak before the restriction it was justified. Everyone would cram on the first train for Wigan/Bolton after work and there would be no room for the long distance travellers. Before the evening peak fare was introduced on every service out of Manchester westwards between 5 and 6 it would be physically impossible for all waiting passengers to board and there would be people left behind on the platform at Manchester and Salford.
 

Philip

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Worth pointing out too that Northern now run a half hourly 6-coach service on Manchester-Bolton-Preston route and from what I've seen the booked formation is pretty reliable. Everything else is mainly 4-coaches and the Clitheroe usually 3, so it should mean the problems of the past; local commuters packing out the Scottish service, shouldn't be a problem even when passenger numbers return to more normal levels. The capacity provided by Northern is excellent and the 331 is a good train, so local Manchester commuters have no need to use the TPE for the short hop to Bolton or Preston.
 

Bletchleyite

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Worth pointing out too that Northern now run a half hourly 6-coach service on Manchester-Bolton-Preston route and from what I've seen the booked formation is pretty reliable.

That's certainly a transformation of capacity on that route and means commuters don't need to crowd out the ICs. It's good to see South East style capacity around Manchester (6x24m is only 16m shorter than your typical South East 8x20m formation), and it's needed (COVID aside) on far more routes around the North West.
 

Purple Orange

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That's certainly a transformation of capacity on that route and means commuters don't need to crowd out the ICs. It's good to see South East style capacity around Manchester (6x24m is only 16m shorter than your typical South East 8x20m formation), and it's needed (COVID aside) on far more routes around the North West.

Exactly. Linking back to the Bolton-Scotland issue, I’d base it all on the question of what is Bolton station for? I see it as simply a funnel for Manchester services, of which 1 tph should certainly be an intercity service to Scotland, with the rest connecting to Manchester with a combination of fast and stopping services. Minimum 6-car commuter trains. I can’t ever see TPE extending the 397 units, so if additional capacity was to be ordered for that route, it would likely come in the form of a new order of trains and the current 397 fleet used to bolster Liverpool-Scotland.
 

Ianno87

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Exactly. Linking back to the Bolton-Scotland issue, I’d base it all on the question of what is Bolton station for? I see it as simply a funnel for Manchester services, of which 1 tph should certainly be an intercity service to Scotland, with the rest connecting to Manchester with a combination of fast and stopping services. Minimum 6-car commuter trains. I can’t ever see TPE extending the 397 units, so if additional capacity was to be ordered for that route, it would likely come in the form of a new order of trains and the current 397 fleet used to bolster Liverpool-Scotland.

The railway is effectively a Bolton-Manchester tube line, that being the overwhelming demand at Bolton.

Scotland services do generate some demand at Bolton, but the service provision has been erratic over the years in a way that, say, somewhere like Stockport doesn't suffer from, with:

-Pre-2002, a handful of Scotland trains per day, I think up to about 5 or so at the peak
-September 2002 to May 2003: Every 2 hours under 'Operation Princess'
-May 2003 to December 2004: Cut back to 2 stops per day each way in the recovery from Operation Princess:
-Dec 2004 to Dec 2007: Every 2 hours restored, but with services largely split at Manchester (except 1 per day running through south of Manchester to Stafford / Birmingham)
-Dec 2007 to Dec 2013: Every 2 hours operated by TPE, increasing to pretty much full hourly service
-Dec 2013 to May 2018: Trains diverted via Chat Moss with Bolton stops withdrawn
-May 2018 onwards: Trains restored via Bolton with some limited calls introduced


So service provision has hardly been consistent over the last 20 years!
 

cle

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I think that 6 car electric Preston - Bolton - Manchester services at 4-6tph are all that line needs. Some to extend to Blackpool if deemed essential. I'd prefer to use the bays at Preston, and have more Blackpool services run to Liverpool, to keep the throat neater at Preston.

Blackburn and Westhoughton routed trains would add capacity for Bolton too of course. Scotland and Cumbria services to run via Wigan. Bolton needs fast, frequent services to the local hubs, not long distance really.
 

Hugo3000

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I think that 6 car electric Preston - Bolton - Manchester services at 4-6tph are all that line needs. Some to extend to Blackpool if deemed essential. I'd prefer to use the bays at Preston, and have more Blackpool services run to Liverpool, to keep the throat neater at Preston.

Blackburn and Westhoughton routed trains would add capacity for Bolton too of course. Scotland and Cumbria services to run via Wigan. Bolton needs fast, frequent services to the local hubs, not long distance really.
Good luck fitting a six car train into the bays at Preston!
 

AMD

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Good luck fitting a six car train into the bays at Preston!
That and there's (normally) not much capacity for trains to terminate in the through roads at Preston, and during the summer that same capacity through Bolton is well used between Preston and Blackpool.
 

cle

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Agreed agreed - was thinking in terms of possible extensions. But then I saw the video just today on HS2 plans for Preston, and those bays are gone. So will need another plan!

How do you know Bolton doesn't need long distance services?
Maybe in an even world, it could justify them on population. But given they have been so erratic in provision, I don't think they would be missed, if the core needs (Preston and Manchester, maybe Lancaster or Blackpool) - were met and compensated in place of their removal.

Bolton is a large suburban/outer town - yes it's big but not everywhere has demand for long distance services. It's unfortunately located on a loop, and historical demand will have adapted. Wigan, Preston and/or Manchester do the job heading north and south.
 

Philip

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Agreed agreed - was thinking in terms of possible extensions. But then I saw the video just today on HS2 plans for Preston, and those bays are gone. So will need another plan!


Maybe in an even world, it could justify them on population. But given they have been so erratic in provision, I don't think they would be missed, if the core needs (Preston and Manchester, maybe Lancaster or Blackpool) - were met and compensated in place of their removal.

Bolton is a large suburban/outer town - yes it's big but not everywhere has demand for long distance services. It's unfortunately located on a loop, and historical demand will have adapted. Wigan, Preston and/or Manchester do the job heading north and south.

The demand has always been there, if it wasn't then BR and later Virgin wouldn't have stopped their Scotland services at Bolton. The only reasons Bolton has seen its Scotland service reduced or removed is as stated above; to recover from Operation Princess and then later because the Chat Moss line was electrified first to allow for the 350s to replace 185s, and finally to prevent local commuters from crowding the train out, when capacity was less.

From what you're saying, you could make an argument for London and CC services missing out Stockport!
 
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