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Could a pay-per-use road charging scheme powered by vehicle data reporting be viable?

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DynamicSpirit

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Indeed, and how does that government find such people? If they knew a meeting had taken place it would be handy to download all cars that had been in the vicinity

It would also be handy for such a Government to have a police force available to arrest these people. So can you please explain why you haven't argued for disbanding the police force to prevent that possibility.
It would also be handy for such a Government to have jails available to put these people in. So can you please explain why you haven't argued for disbanding the entire prison system to prevent that possibility.
It would also be handy for such a Government to have cars and vans to use to transport these dissidents to their prisons. So can you please explain why you haven't argued for destroying all cars and vans in the UK to prevent that possibility.
 
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Meerkat

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It would also be handy for such a Government to have a police force available to arrest these people. So can you please explain why you haven't argued for disbanding the police force to prevent that possibility.
It would also be handy for such a Government to have jails available to put these people in. So can you please explain why you haven't argued for disbanding the entire prison system to prevent that possibility.
It would also be handy for such a Government to have cars and vans to use to transport these dissidents to their prisons. So can you please explain why you haven't argued for destroying all cars and vans in the UK to prevent that possibility.
A police service is an essential part of any society. They operate within strict rules and are reluctant to become a political instrument.
But they already have history for pushing the boundaries of what they can do - infiltrating protest groups etc. So why would you want to give their less controlled partners in the Security Services a massive boost to their ability to intrude on people’s privacy, just for a very marginal (and dubious) rise in the fairness of taxation that smells a lot like an ideological crusade?
 

Bald Rick

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Indeed, and how does that government find such people? If they knew a meeting had taken place it would be handy to download all cars that had been in the vicinity

But the point is: that can already be done, and is! But it is done, for example, for the purposes of detecting and solving crime, or tracking road use for traffic models. I simply don’t see why an extension of that already available data for road user charging is such a problem.
 

AM9

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Indeed, and how does that government find such people? If they knew a meeting had taken place it would be handy to download all cars that had been in the vicinity. ...
And then what? The police/government security services would need a bit more than a list of cars driven somehwere near a meeting place on a certain day. If they didn't, they would end up looking a bit stupid rounding up a random selection of of car owners whose vehicles happened to be in that locality.
And for those that really wanted to do harm and should be tracked, don't you think that they might swap cars/park further away/use public transport/even walk?
 

Meerkat

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But the point is: that can already be done, and is! But it is done, for example, for the purposes of detecting and solving crime, or tracking road use for traffic models. I simply don’t see why an extension of that already available data for road user charging is such a problem.
The traffic model stuff is anonymised.
I don’t like you using those precedents as I don’t think that they should have been allowed in the first place - not without thorough debate and regulation.

And then what? The police/government security services would need a bit more than a list of cars driven somehwere near a meeting place on a certain day. If they didn't, they would end up looking a bit stupid rounding up a random selection of of car owners whose vehicles happened to be in that locality.
And for those that really wanted to do harm and should be tracked, don't you think that they might swap cars/park further away/use public transport/even walk?
It all adds up, and if they can do it almost instantly without any legwork they will pretty soon have a good idea who is involved. Pattern of life - they run it for several days to exclude the neighbours - and if there is more than one meeting then they have you.
 

AM9

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... It all adds up, and if they can do it almost instantly without any legwork they will pretty soon have a good idea who is involved. Pattern of life - they run it for several days to exclude the neighbours - and if there is more than one meeting then they have you.
So you don't like them using the tools that they already have for crime detection, you probably don't like speed cameras, ANPR, maybe police mobiles are an intrusion because they can check up who owns a car, who is likely to be driving it, when it was MoT'd, if it has an insurance, etc..
If you regard all of these police 'instruments of repression' as barriers to your freedom and privacy to live an invisible existence, then maybe you need to emigrate to a country where there is less law, - try this place: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...try-where-no-one-can-control-anyone-else.html
You can do whatever you want there include drive around on all the roads without paying a penny.
 

Meerkat

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So you don't like them using the tools that they already have for crime detection, you probably don't like speed cameras, ANPR, maybe police mobiles are an intrusion because they can check up who owns a car, who is likely to be driving it, when it was MoT'd, if it has an insurance, etc..
If you regard all of these police 'instruments of repression' as barriers to your freedom and privacy to live an invisible existence, then maybe you need to emigrate to a country where there is less law, - try this place: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...try-where-no-one-can-control-anyone-else.html
You can do whatever you want there include drive around on all the roads without paying a penny.
I see we have finished sensible debate.....
 

Bald Rick

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The traffic model stuff is anonymised.
I don’t like you using those precedents as I don’t think that they should have been allowed in the first place - not without thorough debate and regulation.

Some of it is, some of it isn’t. Police routinely use mobile data and ANPR data (collected from thousands of detectors all around the network) to locate vehicles they have an interest in.

My question still stands, though, which I haven’t had an answer to. What specific scenarios are you (or anyone else) concerned about with the use of vehicle location data for road pricing? I genuinely can’t think of any.
 

Meerkat

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My question still stands, though, which I haven’t had an answer to. What specific scenarios are you (or anyone else) concerned about with the use of vehicle location data for road pricing? I genuinely can’t think of any.
If there is any event that the government decide they didn’t like they could use the data to see who was there.
If you were a member of a protest organisation they could track where you went, who you visited and who else went there.
Where do you draw the line? Should we all wear trackers so the government can see who is breaking quarantine?
 

The Ham

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If there is any event that the government decide they didn’t like they could use the data to see who was there.
If you were a member of a protest organisation they could track where you went, who you visited and who else went there.
Where do you draw the line? Should we all wear trackers so the government can see who is breaking quarantine?

Again it's tracking your vehicle not you. As such there are ways around it. Such as walking or cycling to go to places, such as getting someone to give you a lift and then walking and cycling.

If someone is that paranoid about the government tracking you, then I doubt that there're going to be so stupid as to drive to a meeting and park right outside the door of where they're meeting asking with all the other people within that group.

Chances are they'd meet somewhere where it wouldn't be surprising that there's going to be lots of people, maybe a beach. Then discuss the key points whilst swimming so that the background noise was enough that it would be hard for others to overhear and there would be no electrical devices nearby.

As long as you meet at the beach as well as go to the beach randomly as well (so that there's always going to be a random mix of people who are at the beach at the same time as you) then it's going to be impossible to be sure as to with whom you are meeting.

It doesn't need to be a beach; a national park or other location with limited CCTV.

Which is why I'm not too concerned, as I've worked out ways to get around the problem.
 

Meerkat

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Again it's tracking your vehicle not you. As such there are ways around it. Such as walking or cycling to go to places, such as getting someone to give you a lift and then walking and cycling
Which is why I'm not too concerned, as I've worked out ways to get around the problem.
So the system put in place for marginal ideological tax gain has just made legitimate protest more difficult.
You are also assuming you realise that your group is a target of the security services.
 

The Ham

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So the system put in place for marginal ideological tax gain has just made legitimate protest more difficult.
You are also assuming you realise that your group is a target of the security services.

Chances are you know if the group you belong to is of interest to the authorities, in that you wouldn't be discussing much online.

Likewise most legitimate protests wouldn't be overly concerned about if the authorities were aware of their intention to protest, and if they're not then the protest is likely to be fairly small as you wouldn't be able to advertise it too widely as a certain Mr Fawkes knows to his cost
 

Meerkat

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Chances are you know if the group you belong to is of interest to the authorities, in that you wouldn't be discussing much online.

Likewise most legitimate protests wouldn't be overly concerned about if the authorities were aware of their intention to protest, and if they're not then the protest is likely to be fairly small as you wouldn't be able to advertise it too widely as a certain Mr Fawkes knows to his cost
The scenario would be that lots of large groups become of interest to the government. I doubt all the CND, Animal Lib, environmentalist groups that have previously been infiltrated by the security services thought they needed to use anti-surveillance techniques - and that was a relatively benign government.
If our state started drifting toward tyranny how would we protest if everything we do is tracked and monitored? You avoid the Internet and phones by physical travel, public transport becomes compulsory registered travel cards and then they they track your car.....
 

Bald Rick

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If there is any event that the government decide they didn’t like they could use the data to see who was there.
If you were a member of a protest organisation they could track where you went, who you visited and who else went there.
Where do you draw the line? Should we all wear trackers so the government can see who is breaking quarantine?

Government already can do this, and does with terrorist organisations etc. The issue you are raising is the extension of existing powers / technology to less ‘harmful’ gatherings. That is a political issue, not a technological one.

Even then, to find out who was at such an event, they would be tracking mobile data, not vehicle data.
 

DynamicSpirit

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So the system put in place for marginal ideological tax gain has just made legitimate protest more difficult.

Now this is getting (a) silly and (b) very obviously wrong.

  • Firstly, road charging isn't going to make legitimate protest more difficult. What would make legitimate protest more difficult is if at some point in the future we get an authoritarian Government - and remember, that is just a hypothetical possibility. Please don't confuse the two things. As long as we retain the current democratic, reasonably liberal, political system, road charging and cars reporting their location will make basically no difference at all to your ability to protest (unless you plan to break the law during those protests).
  • Secondly, you're on pretty shaky grounds when you describe road charging as 'marginal ideological tax gain' since those of us who support it generally do so for two very solid, practical reasons: (1) We need to continue to disincentivise people driving cars everywhere after cars convert to electric and fuel duty becomes irrelevant - because if we don't the transport system will grind to a standstill under the weight of congestion that far exceeds anything you see today. To do that, we need some kind of tax to replace fuel duty. And (2) because it is well recognised that taxing by fuel quantity, as is done today, is not really good enough because it doesn't distinguish between trips in cities that cause the most harm, and those in rural areas that don't do nearly as much harm, and which you'd therefore ideally like to charge less per mile for. Hence the need to factor location into any reasonable road charging scheme.
There's nothing ideological about those reasons, and they are motivated mainly by concerns about the environment and quality of life, not about tax (although it's certainly true that they do help the Government's finances).
 

Meerkat

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Government already can do this, and does with terrorist organisations etc. The issue you are raising is the extension of existing powers / technology to less ‘harmful’ gatherings. That is a political issue, not a technological one.

Even then, to find out who was at such an event, they would be tracking mobile data, not vehicle data.
Much easier to avoid mobile tracking (just turn it off!) and harder to get hold of from a private company than a government database.
The government can not currently trawl for all cars in a particular area.

And (2) because it is well recognised that taxing by fuel quantity, as is done today, is not really good enough because it doesn't distinguish between trips in cities that cause the most harm, and those in rural areas that don't do nearly as much harm, and which you'd therefore ideally like to charge less per mile for. Hence the need to factor location into any reasonable road charging scheme.
“well recognised” by who? It’s good enough, and it’s far far cheaper, and far less controversial (how soon before the rich areas got their prices put up to divert traffic through the poor ones?). If rural communities need subsidy then do it directly (your way would just make rural bus services even less likel)
 

The Ham

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Much easier to avoid mobile tracking (just turn it off!) and harder to get hold of from a private company than a government database.
The government can not currently trawl for all cars in a particular area.


“well recognised” by who? It’s good enough, and it’s far far cheaper, and far less controversial (how soon before the rich areas got their prices put up to divert traffic through the poor ones?). If rural communities need subsidy then do it directly (your way would just make rural bus services even less likel)

The setting of the charges would likely have to be set to follow national rules, so things like by traffic volume along roads, to restrict through traffic, or the like. Now it could well be that rich areas will benefit from the setting of these rules, however they tend not to be on main roads currently and so the poor are disadvantaged already.

Having said that, by being able to charge a lot to discourage people from driving into towns and cities it could well be that some of that revenue could be used to subsidise public transport within them. This would benefit the poor in those areas.

Likewise, in rural or predominantly rural areas (such as Cornwall) the cost of getting around could fall significantly during the off season. As there would be not a lot of congestion.
 

AM9

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I see we have finished sensible debate.....
Sensible debate in this thread went off the rails when the conspiracy theories and whataboutery entertain the government using it to keep tabs on citizens that politically inconvenienced it. It would be a troubled person who really believed that, and I don't think that those using the argument are stricken in that way, so I still see it as a proxy reason for defending rights that car users currently have over those who can't or won't drive cars.
 

Bald Rick

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Much easier to avoid mobile tracking (just turn it off!) and harder to get hold of from a private company than a government database.
The government can not currently trawl for all cars in a particular area

1) it’s not harder to get from a private company - there are ‘arrangements’ in place, and if an Orwellian Government came to power you could bet your last penny it wouldn’t be an issue. Again that’s politics, not technology.

2) yes the Government (or more accurately, Police and the Security Service) can trawl for all cars in a particular area. Clearly this is more achievable on main roads and urban areas where ANPR is much more prevalent. But if the police needed to know which vehicles had driven up Park Lane today, or passed the M1 / North circular interchange, or the A41 in a suburb of Wolverhampton, or the A9 at Dalwhinnie, it would be a couple of clicks.
 

The Ham

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1) it’s not harder to get from a private company - there are ‘arrangements’ in place, and if an Orwellian Government came to power you could bet your last penny it wouldn’t be an issue. Again that’s politics, not technology.

2) yes the Government (or more accurately, Police and the Security Service) can trawl for all cars in a particular area. Clearly this is more achievable on main roads and urban areas where ANPR is much more prevalent. But if the police needed to know which vehicles had driven up Park Lane today, or passed the M1 / North circular interchange, or the A41 in a suburb of Wolverhampton, or the A9 at Dalwhinnie, it would be a couple of clicks.

ANPR is getting more prevalent as time goes by, and much more so in places where there's congestion charges (which are likely to spread more, especially now that people have got used to what the town/city would be like without traffic and they know they can do home working), as such the ability of the state to know where the vast majority of people are (quite possibly in near real time).

In fact to provide security to the GPS based system it could be that the data could be uploaded in data bursts, so that there's a bit of a lag and/or at random gaps in time between the location data (say every 2 - 5 minutes) which is sent so that it's not always possible to fully identify the exact location or route. However this would only likely work in areas where there's not a lot of congestion, where there is then it would still show the exact location fairly accurately of the whole route.
 

Peter Sarf

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/government-increase-use-of-public-transport.202690/

An advantage of a pay-per-use road charging scheme powered by vehicle data reporting is that it can also cover parking, including in otherwise unrestricted areas. The positioning systems in cars are getting more precise than standard civilian GPS in order to power self-driving features, so it won't be impossible to tell the difference between a pavement and a driveway. Charging this way means you can effectively blanket the road network with charging prices with smooth gradients, rather than hard thresholds. If you have one half of the street charge £1 for parking and the other half charge £2 it's quite natural for people to prefer to park in the £1 zone. The only way to remove cliff edge problems like these is to put computers in charge of the collection. The same goes for roads.

Since traffic patterns don't tend to change that dramatically (unless you're in a pandemic!) it should be possible to make these charges transparent and available ahead of doing the journey. What we want, in effect, is for Google Maps or equivalent to be able to put a £ cost of driving a car journey alongside the journey time, just as it does for taxi and public transport services. Once you've got that transparency people will make better decisions and take more efficient modes instead. Ideally this is just walking or cycling.

The great thing about imposing charges like these is that they encourage people at the margin to change their behaviour, leaving the roads clearer for those who have no real choice but to drive.

I choose to restrict use of my car in favour of the bus. You advocate me paying for parking my car and not using it so I might as well use my car more !. In fact that is just what Croydon Council have stupidly done - charge me £300 per year for a residents parking permit. The simple way to control car/lorry use is to tax fuel, it is a low tech and simple method and taxes people on how much fuel they use. I think the amount of fuel used reflects the amount of pollution created. So if I have a filthy petrol guzzling monster of an engine I will get charged more per mile than a much more ecological car - makes sense to tax fuel.


Now I wish they would tax the fuel the airliners use that fly (flew !) over my house.

As for road tax - most of that does not get spent on the roads.

Another way to reduce road use is to not repair the roads - oh that is being done already !.

Next step for me is to concrete over my lovely front garden and save £300 per year.
 
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Meerkat

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2) yes the Government (or more accurately, Police and the Security Service) can trawl for all cars in a particular area. Clearly this is more achievable on main roads and urban areas where ANPR is much more prevalent. But if the police needed to know which vehicles had driven up Park Lane today, or passed the M1 / North circular interchange, or the A41 in a suburb of Wolverhampton, or the A9 at Dalwhinnie, it would be a couple of clicks.
There really isn’t that much ANPR around, certainly not enough to do more than say a car was in a particular town.
This is also boiling frogs - the ANPR cameras just appeared, with no public debate about whether or how they should be used. Now you guys are using them as a precedent to turn the temperature up a bit more.
 

Meerkat

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The setting of the charges would likely have to be set to follow national rules, so things like by traffic volume along roads, to restrict through traffic, or the like.
But for it to be worth bothering about it would have to be based on desired traffic volumes not current traffic volumes, or you would reinforce current inappropriate rat runs.
There would have to be multiple consultations involving much inter community argument, then once in operation there would need to be a huge rejigging once reality had been oberved, again with multiple consultations, then regular consultations as traffic patterns changed and new developments were proposed
Yet more reason this scheme is so insanely complicated and expensive it could never be worth the marginal gain.
 

NotATrainspott

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I choose to restrict use of my car in favour of the bus. You advocate me paying for parking my car and not using it so I might as well use my car more !. In fact that is just what Croydon Council have stupidly done - charge me £300 per year for a residents parking permit. The simple way to control car/lorry use is to tax fuel, it is a low tech and simple method and taxes people on how much fuel they use. I think the amount of fuel used reflects the amount of pollution created. So if I have a filthy petrol guzzling monster of an engine I will get charged more per mile than a much more ecological car - makes sense to tax fuel.


Now I wish they would tax the fuel the airliners use that fly (flew !) over my house.

As for road tax - most of that does not get spent on the roads.

Another way to reduce road use is to not repair the roads - oh that is being done already !.

Next step for me is to concrete over my lovely front garden and save £300 per year.

It might be worth reading more of the thread. I've pointed out fairly comprehensively that you cannot rely on the taxation of fuel as a proxy for vehicle use. This is the system we have today, but it's about to implode with the dawn of mass-market electric vehicles. The more you cling to the fuel-based tax system, the greater the distortion it will cause in favour of electric vehicles, giving you even less control.

A tracking system works on the fundamentals. A given vehicle was at a given place at a given time. How that vehicle is powered is irrelevant. The only way to pay less for using your car is to use your car less, which is the intended effect.

The example you raise of parking charges is an interesting one, because it also shows how attempts at resolving this without a tracking system can and will result in perverse outcomes. If you make the upfront fixed costs of motoring high in an attempt to dissuade vehicle use, it will do two things:

  • Some people who can't justify or afford that cost will no longer be able to use a vehicle at all, even for rare journeys where it is the most effective option. This is bad.
  • The people who can afford and justify that fixed cost will then be incentivised to use their vehicle as much as possible to gain as much benefit from that fixed cost as they can. This is made worse if you no longer have efficient ways of taxing incremental usage.
There's nothing wrong with someone buying a £20k car and leaving it on their driveway, gathering dust. For the rest of society, that's no worse than someone going and buying themselves a £20k grand piano and never playing it. If you are willing to pay for the land/space used to store that useless £20k lump of metal, then you can do whatever you want.

(Obviously this now gets into issues about the efficient taxation of the finite resource of land - this is resolved with a Land Value Tax).

If you are daft enough to pay the parking charges required for your £20k lump of steel to sit, unused, on a street parking space then that's also your prerogative. It's not different to the charges councils impose for skips to be on the street.

The cost of private vehicle happens when you start driving it around. We need to tax that incremental use, and the ultimate way of doing that is to track usage of vehicles at all times.

But for it to be worth bothering about it would have to be based on desired traffic volumes not current traffic volumes, or you would reinforce current inappropriate rat runs.
There would have to be multiple consultations involving much inter community argument, then once in operation there would need to be a huge rejigging once reality had been oberved, again with multiple consultations, then regular consultations as traffic patterns changed and new developments were proposed
Yet more reason this scheme is so insanely complicated and expensive it could never be worth the marginal gain.

We already know the nature of roads and streets, so setting a charge will not be difficult. Google Maps already does it when you plan a route. It knows that it should prefer motorways, then trunk roads, then main roads, and only then do smaller routes.
 

Meerkat

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We already know the nature of roads and streets, so setting a charge will not be difficult. Google Maps already does it when you plan a route. It knows that it should prefer motorways, then trunk roads, then main roads, and only then do smaller routes.
No, we really don’t. Google knows how fast traffics currently flows on those roads. It doesn’t know if that’s where we want the traffic to flow. See the big arguments between residents who want speed limits on main roads and authorities who need the traffic to flow.
and don’t forget you want some kind of banding system as rural areas turn to urban areas. That alone will be a massive argument between authorities and campaigning groups.
 

Bald Rick

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There really isn’t that much ANPR around, certainly not enough to do more than say a car was in a particular town.

ANPR is everywhere. Speed cameras, almost all commercial car parks (my local Sainsbury’s has had it for at least 15 years), all the trunk highway network, entrance to most settlements of any size (my parents rural village for example). I’ve just done a 6 mile return trip to a supermarket, and will have been ANPRd at least 8 times, and that’s without using a trunk road, and not including the 2 police traffic cars I drive past.
 

NotATrainspott

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No, we really don’t. Google knows how fast traffics currently flows on those roads. It doesn’t know if that’s where we want the traffic to flow. See the big arguments between residents who want speed limits on main roads and authorities who need the traffic to flow.
and don’t forget you want some kind of banding system as rural areas turn to urban areas. That alone will be a massive argument between authorities and campaigning groups.

It might be worth going and diving into OpenStreetMap to see what sort of data is available already about the public highway. Google Maps and other commercial systems keep their information proprietary so we can only reason about what they have, but it'll be a more advanced version of OSM. Each street on the map isn't just a line but a line that has all sorts of metadata such as speed limits, number of lanes, street lights or no street lights, etc. Roads are designed according to highway manuals which mean there is a fairly tractable number of distinct road types around, so we can fairly easily make a first cut approximation of what the charges should be.

We can also take into account the data about the surrounding areas to tweak the charges further. We're worried about the effect of pollution and cars on humans, and humans tend to live in houses rather than industrial estates. Even with the same basic road type we can create different charging schemes for different areas.
 

corfield

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Going back to the start:
This is nothing to do with road use/congestion or pollution.

Tax is simply the Government trying to raise mo as easily as possible.
  • It’s why road tax was created and has always gone into general funds.
  • It’s why road tax was changed after everyone got low tax cheap vehicles and now clean ones pay more than dirtier ones.
  • It’s why after the protests in the early 2000s, the Government stopped arbitrarily raising the fuel tax in the way it had previously.
  • It is no different from when windows were taxed because they could walk round the (tiny) towns, stand on your doorstep, count them and demand payment.
  • It’s why we pay 20% “Value Added” tax on stuff that was made in another country, shipped here and driven to the store with no “value” being added in this country at all.
  • It’s why we pay 10s of £1000s when we want to move home.
  • It’s why the Government takes some of our saved wealth when we die.
The problem is electric vehicle are not dependent upon an easily applied universal tax at a few discrete points because people can charge them from their homes and the money the Govt makes from energy costs is a fraction of what it makes off fuel tax. This neatly illustrates how far fuel tax has become divorced from the actual real world costs of that energy.

In effect, the Government has been caught with its hands in the “energy cost of motoring” till.
(This is something a lot of people will make very obvious once the majority of us can charge from home vs cost of fuel)

The answers are simple.
  1. energy (electric) prices that jump if you use them a lot - ie charging a car daily is going to really increase your electricity consumption. I have lightbulbs and a tv off mine at the moment - 15k miles a year is going to be rather noticeable!
  2. Increase annual lump sum payment for owning a car / greater purchase taxes / stamp duty style tax on any vehicle purchase incl 2nd hand.
  3. Tax on battery servivcing / replacement / disposal as that is mileage linked.
Or this byzantine system of pricing every mile of road, legally requiring people to declare their whereabouts at all times and the infinite arguments that creates. Good luck, but I dont think Sir Humphrey would even have a description for how “courageous” that would be - looked at what happened to fuel tax escalator, motorway pricing and ID cards - of which this is all 3.
 

NotATrainspott

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Going back to the start:
This is nothing to do with road use/congestion or pollution.

Tax is simply the Government trying to raise mo as easily as possible.
  • It’s why road tax was created and has always gone into general funds.
  • It’s why road tax was changed after everyone got low tax cheap vehicles and now clean ones pay more than dirtier ones.
  • It’s why after the protests in the early 2000s, the Government stopped arbitrarily raising the fuel tax in the way it had previously.
  • It is no different from when windows were taxed because they could walk round the (tiny) towns, stand on your doorstep, count them and demand payment.
  • It’s why we pay 20% “Value Added” tax on stuff that was made in another country, shipped here and driven to the store with no “value” being added in this country at all.
  • It’s why we pay 10s of £1000s when we want to move home.
  • It’s why the Government takes some of our saved wealth when we die.
The problem is electric vehicle are not dependent upon an easily applied universal tax at a few discrete points because people can charge them from their homes and the money the Govt makes from energy costs is a fraction of what it makes off fuel tax. This neatly illustrates how far fuel tax has become divorced from the actual real world costs of that energy.

In effect, the Government has been caught with its hands in the “energy cost of motoring” till.
(This is something a lot of people will make very obvious once the majority of us can charge from home vs cost of fuel)

As societies develop, they notice the existence of more complex and interesting problems, and propose more novel solutions to them. The foundations of the tax system we have now for vehicles was set decades ago, back when people didn't realise there could be big problems from mass private vehicle usage. That's not because people back then were dumb, or malicious. People were doing the best they could at the time, responding to the problems society had noticed by that point. No, with hindsight, we can see that some of their ideas weren't very good.

The rate of change in society is increasing all the time, and the next big thing we're going to see is mass-scale adoption of electric vehicles. As you say, this is going to drive a coach and horses through the existing system. We need to come up with a better system, but when we do so, we have to pay attention to the problems that we've noticed. Many of these problems will not go away just because the vehicle is electric and possibly even powered by a wind farm or solar panel. If we do not address these problems now, then we're going to have to scrabble around finding a solution to them very soon. The crisis that would unfold from a bad tax response to EVs would unfold in a matter of years, not a lifetime from now. We're better off having a solid discussion and thinking to the very end of the problem and addressing it there, in a way where there's no fundamental changes ever required in future as new technologies become available and society changes to accommodate them.
The answers are simple.
  1. energy (electric) prices that jump if you use them a lot - ie charging a car daily is going to really increase your electricity consumption. I have lightbulbs and a tv off mine at the moment - 15k miles a year is going to be rather noticeable!
  2. Increase annual lump sum payment for owning a car / greater purchase taxes / stamp duty style tax on any vehicle purchase incl 2nd hand.
  3. Tax on battery servivcing / replacement / disposal as that is mileage linked.

Unfortunately, as we have explored in this thread, these answers are not sufficient. They would create and persist more problems than they would resolve.

You cannot tax electricity like that, because we are about to shift to a world where fossil fuels are no longer getting piped or delivered to homes as an efficient way of space and water heating. The reason we have millions of tiny little gas burners inside kitchens and utility rooms across the country rather than what should be vastly more efficient power stations creating electricity from that energy is that there is a practical limit to the amount of mechanical work we can derive from a heat power source. The electrical generation from a coal, gas or even nuclear power plant is based on that mechanical energy. In heat plants, huge amounts of heat is totally wasted because it's too cold to power a turbine but it's too far from the people who need it. This is why co-generation is so incredibly efficient and buildings like The Shard are actually powered by natural gas. You can extract electrical power as normal but then use the wasted heat to warm (and even cool) the building and the water within. The difficulty getting that heat from centralised power plants into homes is large enough that we deem it better just to burn the fossil fuels in the house and not bother trying to extract electricity from it, and just using all of it as heat. This is why the electrical revolution seemed to go backwards over the last 60 years, with pure electric space & water heating replaced by gas boilers in homes.

This world is now slipping away. Electricity generation is moving away from the world of heat generation, and towards mechanical (wind, water turbines) and quantum electrical (photovoltaic) sources. With that, there is no meaningful waste heat at point of production. As a result, you may as well do pure electrical space and water heating in your home. Even if it means going around retrofitting three-phase supplies in homes to power instant water heaters it's still more efficient than having a gas or oil boiler. If everyone is now going to be using electricity for heating, you can't trivially tax large electricity use, because then you're taxing people heating their homes! That electrical energy can be used from anything from charging electric vehicles to powering appliances to heating water and there's no practical way for the government to tell what was used for what. The split taxation system for diesel (red vs white) is only enforceable because of the dye that gets added and the authority of the government to do dip-stick tests in vehicles that are only eligible to use white diesel.

That is, unless you start creating byzantine tracking systems to check how much you've charged your car separately from your normal electricity supply. But then you get into a whole world of pain because fundamentally the technology used to power an electric car is no different, other than scale, from the technology used for all sorts of other consumer devices in your life. Base the tax system on this and people will come up with ways to charge up vehicles without the government being able to track that charging. And, unlike red diesel or a movement tracking scheme, there's basically no way for the government to tell whether someone has done it or not. The complexity in overriding the vehicle charging system will be overcome if the economic incentive is there, just as it would be if you made taxation dependent on it!

Having a static charge for owning a vehicle also makes precisely zero sense. For one, it means that people who need a car for occasional use are stuck with a high charge even though they do very little consumption damage. It also creates weird incentives about leasing cars. If the cost is fixed per vehicle, then all you'd end up with is a mass rollout of rental-by-the-hour services where that fixed cost gets divided up by lots of users while their own actual usage isn't properly taxed. If you do own a vehicle, it then means you have little economic incentive not to use it at any given moment. If the marginal cost of motoring is basically zero, then no one who owns a car is ever going to be persuaded to use public transport.

And a mileage scheme means people who live in rural areas will suffer dramatically. You cannot come up with a single mileage charge which works for the entire country. Either it's too high for rural areas, or it's too low for people in cities who are driving around for no good reason at all. And as explained earlier in the thread, it also means you create really extremely perverse incentives for people to avoid slightly circuitous bypass roads in favour of driving through traditional town centres!

Or this byzantine system of pricing every mile of road, legally requiring people to declare their whereabouts at all times and the infinite arguments that creates. Good luck, but I dont think Sir Humphrey would even have a description for how “courageous” that would be - looked at what happened to fuel tax escalator, motorway pricing and ID cards - of which this is all 3.

I found this article very interesting today:

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/10/21215...ing-economy-recession-depression-unemployment

As you may have noticed, we're in a bit of a crisis at the moment. Unfortunately, it appears that until there is a vaccine or suitable treatment for Covid-19, the only viable ways for countries to return to any sort of normality will be the imposition of a technological-health surveillance state. Your individual areas of freedom are fundamentally irrelevant in a world where you, individually, could trigger another pandemic.
 

corfield

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2012
Messages
478
None of what you’ve written changes that tax is about getting money. Any societal stuff is just spin.

The problem is reducing revenue - so as with they did for Road Tax, they up it without regard to logic. They’ll do the same to where we do “fuel” the vehicles from. Far easier.

The usage of the roads, congestion and pollution are just layers that habeen added - it is not why this revenue collection needs to happen.

It doesn’t matter if the tax makes no sense as I illustrated with VAT. Stamp Duty makes it harder and disincentivises moving home yet for decades the Government has had a “get on yer bike” mentality that we seek opportunity.Death duties? Why? What has society or the Govt done to earn taking a portion of wealth given the death costs fall on the estate anyway - the answer now, as ever, is nothing. It’s just a point in time that their assets can be easily assessed and they get away with it because the person doesn’t need it anymore and the inheritors cant complain as they are still getting something.

Your own post illustrates the problem, rural roads would be lower priced. Why? They cost more to maintain and urban road costs can be amortised over so many more users.
Such an argument is impossible to even have for every mile of road.

Your suggestion of an invasion of privacy for health (a) isn’t actually happening, (b) is very different than one for revenue replacement. That should be obvious. It also serves to reinforce the libertarian arguments on this thread.

Ref Covid, the blunt reality is that once a load of people have died, and the rest have had it, normal life will resume. Prep for another will merely be medical capacity and training - a wider volunteer system perhaps and many of the ad hoc things that have been done in recent weeks, being formalised in planning, exercises and education.

If you think this will green light bringing in authoritarian surveillance more widely you are naieve at best - the backlash would annihilate anyone proposing it. If anything peoples tolerance will have been exhausted by this and the sense of unfairness if that is exploited would be huge.
 
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