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Could a pay-per-use road charging scheme powered by vehicle data reporting be viable?

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Meerkat

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How is this giving up personal freedom? It wouldn't stop you doing anything that you can't do today (Other than, if you want to use your car to commit crimes - in which case it makes it more likely that you'll be caught).
That’s just a variation of the “Let’s have cctv in your lounge - if you aren’t doing anything wrong....” argument.
It also relies on your opinion of “doing something wrong” being in line with the authorities opinion.
How do you feel about the Chinese surveillance system? I am sure that is just for the good of society.
 
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cactustwirly

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How is it class envy when I could do it whenever I wanted?



A hard no to that. You don't understand. This balance of individual rights happens all the time for reasons well beyond state security!

Did you know that Jehovah's Witnesses object to blood transfusions on religious grounds? If a blood transfusion was required for them to survive something, then they'd rather die. It is your right to reject medical treatment on any grounds other than personal incapacity. The NHS does not forcibly keep Jehovah's Witnesses alive by forcibly giving them blood, because it respects that.

We have a right in this country to individual free expression and a freedom to follow a religion or none. If Jehovah's Witnesses want to follow those requirements, then society will not stop them.

But this hits a brick wall when children are involved. The state will forcibly provide Jehovah's Witness children with blood transfusions to save their lives. This has been brought before the courts time and time again and it is legal in all cases. The state is infringing on religious free expression. Why? Because in these cases, the right of the parents to hold religious beliefs is not deemed to exceed the right to life of a child who is not yet Gillick competent and able to make life-changing decisions about their own medical care.

There is no state security problem here. Other than the child and their parents, no one is directly affected. But, the state and courts weigh up rights and make decisions which prioritise some over others.

This balance is absolutely fundamental to the functioning of society. If you go around saying that everyone has inalienable rights upon which the state cannot infringe, then you end up with no rights at all. At this very moment societies across the world are weighing up the right to life against the right to freedom of movement. The idea that the state could imprison its population in their homes is more absurd and draconian than any amount of people tracking, yet this is the law of the land here today. The right to life for the old, disabled and vulnerable is more important than the rights of people to go where they want, when they want.

The right to life is even able to conflict with itself. What right to life do you have if you are a bedbound 80 year old on the last ventilator in the hospital when a 25-year-old ICU nurse is struck down by COVID-19 and needs it too? Medical ethics dictates that the right to life of the 80 year old is ultimately deemed less than the right to life of the 25 year old. In all plausible ethical scenarios this will hold. We don't ever remove the right to life from someone for no reason; we just have to weigh it against those of other deserving people.

We're talking here about a taxation system which would do nothing less than give private car owners the same treatment as those who rely on public transport.



Do we have a national database of refrigerators? Or lampshades?

Do we have a centralised database of identities of people permitted to operate a ride-on lawnmower?

The rubicon of special handling for motorised vehicles for use on the public highway, compared to other areas of society, was crossed long, long ago. We're just updating it to the most recent level of technology.



Newsflash - you're already able to do this. Domestic abusers are already permitted to fit tracking devices to their own vehicle. Being the registered keeper of the vehicle gives you the right to do this for your own purposes. Tracking someone else's car would not be acceptable. There is no fundamental change here, as abhorrent as these practices may be.



Do you like people clogging up cities and making them unpleasant for everyone but themselves?

Have you noticed how peaceful the roads are right now? How much clearer the air is?

Would a 'polluter pays' scheme just be from a "I don't like factories dumping poisonous gases into the air" motivation?



I don't care how nice the car is.



The main reason I would advocate street-by-street charging is that there can be fairly drastic differences in roads within a small geographic area. I think the technology would end up needing to be able to determine exactly what street you drove on. Once you've got that, having smaller pricing bands would be an inevitable optimisation. Some of these charging systems could be even more complex: for instance, using a residential street as a rat run. I'm thinking of a quiet residential street parallel to a main road. Someone driving along the full length of the residential street instead of the main road is a problem if it's used as a rat run, but it's not a problem if they had some useful purpose on the road that slowed them down.

I don't see how it is giving car owners the same treatment as public transport, since passengers don't need to pay a tax to use the rail network, nor do they need to pay for the fuel, with tax on that as well.
I don't see what this scheme achieves, it's just a really expensive way of significantly disadvantaging people who need to use a car. Public transport is expensive, especially for a family, so a car may be the only affordable option for poorer families, or shift workers who physically can't use public transport to get to work.
Public transport users don't have the government watch their every move, so why should car users?
 

DynamicSpirit

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That’s just a variation of the “Let’s have cctv in your lounge - if you aren’t doing anything wrong....” argument.

No it's not. It's a serious point. You're equating cars self-reporting their location with a loss of freedom, but it isn't. It doesn't remove your freedom to do anything that is legal and which you can't do at the moment. You may well feel you have some good reasons for not wanting the Government to have that data - well, clearly you do because that's what we're debating ;). But it's not directly an issue of freedom.

How do you feel about the Chinese surveillance system? I am sure that is just for the good of society.

No massive issues with the technology the Chinese use. Possibly I'd find a few minor quibbles if I looked into it in detail. It seems to have proven its worth in preventing many more deaths from Covid-19 in China than European experience suggests would have happened (although to be fair that was in part a draconian lockdown, not just their data collection). I do have a massive issue with the authoritarian nature of the Chinese Government and the way it uses its surveillance system, clamps down on free speech and abuses human rights, but that's a different thing.

For comparison, I also have a huge issue with the way the Chinese Government uses tv and newspapers to push out its propaganda and suppress dissent. But I suspect you'd think I was insane if I suggested the appropriate response was to stop having any tv or newspapers. But that's the logic you seem to be using when comes to tracking movement of motor vehicles.
 

Tetchytyke

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I do have a massive issue with the authoritarian nature of the Chinese Government and the way it uses its surveillance system, clamps down on free speech and abuses human rights, but that's a different thing.

Except it isn't a different thing at all. Our government, for now, may be benign (though by no means as benign as they think they are), but there's no guarantee they will remain so.

Would those advocating a black box that tracks your car's every move also advocate an ankle tag that tracks your every move? If not, why not. It would reduce crime, cut anti-social behaviour, reduce congestion at busy times...

Ironic, really, that people demanding such authoritarian policies are doing it "for the environment". Ask environmental protesters how benign the police are and get back to me!

I also have a huge issue with the way the Chinese Government uses tv and newspapers to push out its propaganda and suppress dissent. But I suspect you'd think I was insane if I suggested the appropriate response was to stop having any tv or newspapers.

No, the Chinese propaganda machine works by denying access to independent journalism, both through outright bans and firewalls. You only get access to the internet if you do as you're told.

It's not so very different to this idea that you are banned from the road- paid for by your taxes- if you don't want the Government Snooping Machine TM in your car.
 
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Meerkat

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You're equating cars self-reporting their location with a loss of freedom,
Being under surveillance is very much a loss of freedom

I do have a massive issue with the authoritarian nature of the Chinese Government and the way it uses its surveillance system
How do you know a future UK government wouldn’t do this.
By the way you do realise the Chinese government suppresses free speech here, in politics and universities? Seeing as you have expressed opposition to them online maybe they would hack the database and start following you?
 

The Ham

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I don't see how it is giving car owners the same treatment as public transport, since passengers don't need to pay a tax to use the rail network, nor do they need to pay for the fuel, with tax on that as well.
I don't see what this scheme achieves, it's just a really expensive way of significantly disadvantaging people who need to use a car. Public transport is expensive, especially for a family, so a car may be the only affordable option for poorer families, or shift workers who physically can't use public transport to get to work.
Public transport users don't have the government watch their every move, so why should car users?

Whilst there's going to be some for whom using a car is essential (shift workers as an example), however car ownership is quite expensive.

As an example an adult unlimited bus pass for a fairly large area in Southern England costs £930 for the year. That works out at about £18 a week, that's generally less than most individuals would spend on petrol. Having 2 bus passes would compare with a couple paying £150/month for their single car (which is easy to do just on lease costs).

Now once you start getting to the point where you've got several children who also need to be moved about then a car can start to be good value, until you then need a second car.

A lot of people will start to realise how much they spend on their cars whilst they are in lockdown. In that if they are working from home they'll see their petrol/diesel costs drop significantly.
 
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NotATrainspott

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Except that's not true, is it. There's all the other data points attached to that- address, date of birth, vehicle type, vehicle value, length of journey, origin of journey, destination of journey, time spent at the destination, destination of the next journey, time spent there. You know who else was there. You know how long they spend there, if they arrived together, etc etc.

Why this data?

There's two sides to the data here. There's the data about where a specific vehicle ID has been and thus how much to charge it, and then there's the side where the registered keepers are involved with their names and addresses. There's little need to consider the second half when calculating the first half. It really doesn't matter who owns the car when you calculate how much tax it needs to pay.

Something a little frightening for you is that the combination of your post code and date of birth is able to uniquely identify you something like 99% of the time. How many companies are there who have your date of birth and postcode? How many systems have been built around the assumption that date of birth and postcode are not, in themselves, enough to identify you? Think about all of the people who have this data, and how easily most people will give it away in return for anything.

A system like this for vehicle taxation would inevitably mean we would have to deal with the privacy implications of a system upfront, rather than being ignorant or even pretending that such problems could arise. Being upfront means you can design the system around privacy and auditing (as you really need to under GDPR anyway, but whatever).

If all this information were useless, the Stasi wouldn't have spent so long designing systems to obtain it. The East Germans were many things, but they were not stupid.

So why would you create a system which completely and fundamentally ignored millions of people in the UK? It's people who cause political problems for the government. Cars and vans are just inanimate lumps of steel and rubber.

If you concentrate that data in one place, controlled by the government, it becomes harder to put that legal framework in place. Data held externally needs a court warrant, you can't just nip in the back door.

Why? Laws are laws. If the law says that the government must seek a court order before the DVLA will hand over the tracking data, then the government must seek a court order. It's illegal for civil servants to do things which are illegal, even if the government asks them to. If the government wants to change the law, then it has to go through Parliament.

If Parliament is in a mood to give the police unfettered access to the DVLA database without a warrant, then it will also give the police unfettered access to private data collections about vehicle movements too. There's no meaningful difference.

We've seen local councils use anti-terrorism legislation to spy on people applying for popular schools, so no, I don't trust them.

That's why councils wouldn't have access to this data. There's no justifiable reason for them to have this level of access. All they would need and would get would be the aggregated and therefore anonymous data (e.g. that there were 10,000 vehicles driving along a road per day, rather than the specific 10,000 vehicle IDs which did).

The benefits listed- which can be achieved through less intrusive means- certainly don't justify forcing every person in the country to have a black box tracking their every move (or, indeed, their lack of movement!)

It's not people being forced to have a black box fitted. It's road-going vehicles. Millions of people in the UK will never personally be affected by tracking of vehicles because they don't own one, and won't need to. We already accept that road-going vehicles are a special category of objects which are acceptable for the government to interfere in unlike almost any other thing you own.

The benefits listed cannot be achieved to anywhere near the same extent with less intrusive means. Attack parking, and you create a world of zombie vehicles driving around for no reason but to wait for their passengers to be ready to be picked up again. Attack mileage, and you punish the Western Isles for the benefit of Camden. Attack fossil fuels and you just speed up the total shift to EVs. Attack electricity costs and you'll have all of middle England installing PV cells.

The tracking system is the only one which cannot be beaten, and so people will not begin doing silly things to try that.

That’s just a variation of the “Let’s have cctv in your lounge - if you aren’t doing anything wrong....” argument.
It also relies on your opinion of “doing something wrong” being in line with the authorities opinion.
How do you feel about the Chinese surveillance system? I am sure that is just for the good of society.

There is no expectation of privacy out in public. When you're driving on the public highway, you are out in public. There can be an expectation of some degree of privacy within the confines of your own private vehicle, but the location of that vehicle is not private. There is very much an expectation of privacy in your own home, and thus a mandatory CCTV system would violate it.

I don't see how it is giving car owners the same treatment as public transport, since passengers don't need to pay a tax to use the rail network, nor do they need to pay for the fuel, with tax on that as well.
I don't see what this scheme achieves, it's just a really expensive way of significantly disadvantaging people who need to use a car. Public transport is expensive, especially for a family, so a car may be the only affordable option for poorer families, or shift workers who physically can't use public transport to get to work.
Public transport users don't have the government watch their every move, so why should car users?

As said above, the majority of public transport is paid for through easily trackable means. Even if it hasn't been historically, the shift to contactless payments instead of cash is a tipping point like no other.

The problem with the idea that this system is punishing poor car owners is that the existing system punishes poor car owners in a way which is fundamentally less fair. There are many people who have no choice but to own and use a car, but they must suffer on the roads from congestion due to the many people making journeys by car which could be done by other means. We know that extra road capacity does not help, as it just encourages even more unnecessary and/or inefficient journeys to be made. With this charging scheme, the roads would be far clearer for those who need them. We can decide to subsidise travel for the poorest and most needy in society if we wish, using the revenue from this taxation system.
 

cactustwirly

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Why this data?

There's two sides to the data here. There's the data about where a specific vehicle ID has been and thus how much to charge it, and then there's the side where the registered keepers are involved with their names and addresses. There's little need to consider the second half when calculating the first half. It really doesn't matter who owns the car when you calculate how much tax it needs to pay.

Something a little frightening for you is that the combination of your post code and date of birth is able to uniquely identify you something like 99% of the time. How many companies are there who have your date of birth and postcode? How many systems have been built around the assumption that date of birth and postcode are not, in themselves, enough to identify you? Think about all of the people who have this data, and how easily most people will give it away in return for anything.

A system like this for vehicle taxation would inevitably mean we would have to deal with the privacy implications of a system upfront, rather than being ignorant or even pretending that such problems could arise. Being upfront means you can design the system around privacy and auditing (as you really need to under GDPR anyway, but whatever).



So why would you create a system which completely and fundamentally ignored millions of people in the UK? It's people who cause political problems for the government. Cars and vans are just inanimate lumps of steel and rubber.



Why? Laws are laws. If the law says that the government must seek a court order before the DVLA will hand over the tracking data, then the government must seek a court order. It's illegal for civil servants to do things which are illegal, even if the government asks them to. If the government wants to change the law, then it has to go through Parliament.

If Parliament is in a mood to give the police unfettered access to the DVLA database without a warrant, then it will also give the police unfettered access to private data collections about vehicle movements too. There's no meaningful difference.



That's why councils wouldn't have access to this data. There's no justifiable reason for them to have this level of access. All they would need and would get would be the aggregated and therefore anonymous data (e.g. that there were 10,000 vehicles driving along a road per day, rather than the specific 10,000 vehicle IDs which did).



It's not people being forced to have a black box fitted. It's road-going vehicles. Millions of people in the UK will never personally be affected by tracking of vehicles because they don't own one, and won't need to. We already accept that road-going vehicles are a special category of objects which are acceptable for the government to interfere in unlike almost any other thing you own.

The benefits listed cannot be achieved to anywhere near the same extent with less intrusive means. Attack parking, and you create a world of zombie vehicles driving around for no reason but to wait for their passengers to be ready to be picked up again. Attack mileage, and you punish the Western Isles for the benefit of Camden. Attack fossil fuels and you just speed up the total shift to EVs. Attack electricity costs and you'll have all of middle England installing PV cells.

The tracking system is the only one which cannot be beaten, and so people will not begin doing silly things to try that.



There is no expectation of privacy out in public. When you're driving on the public highway, you are out in public. There can be an expectation of some degree of privacy within the confines of your own private vehicle, but the location of that vehicle is not private. There is very much an expectation of privacy in your own home, and thus a mandatory CCTV system would violate it.



As said above, the majority of public transport is paid for through easily trackable means. Even if it hasn't been historically, the shift to contactless payments instead of cash is a tipping point like no other.

The problem with the idea that this system is punishing poor car owners is that the existing system punishes poor car owners in a way which is fundamentally less fair. There are many people who have no choice but to own and use a car, but they must suffer on the roads from congestion due to the many people making journeys by car which could be done by other means. We know that extra road capacity does not help, as it just encourages even more unnecessary and/or inefficient journeys to be made. With this charging scheme, the roads would be far clearer for those who need them. We can decide to subsidise travel for the poorest and most needy in society if we wish, using the revenue from this taxation system.

The reason why many people use cars, is because the public transport system is quite frankly ****! Especially the buses. The way to get people out of their cars, is to improve public transport, so that it is genuinely usable, and isn't something you have to use because you don't have a car.
Not some draconian unfair taxing system.
 

Meerkat

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There is no expectation of privacy out in public.
Yes, there absolutely is. You are thinking purely in terms of whether someone can take a photo of you in a public place, which in many ways is more about not infringing their rights.
If there was no right to avoid being identified and located why can you legally refuse to tell a policeman your details or what you are doing?
 

DynamicSpirit

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Except it isn't a different thing at all. Our government, for now, may be benign (though by no means as benign as they think they are), but there's no guarantee they will remain so.

OK lets's imagine that in 10 years' time, the UK will turn into an authoritarian dictatorship, and use your logic:
  • This dictatorship will find tv incredibly useful to push out propaganda to everyone. Guess we'd better abolish tv tomorrow, to make sure that can't happen.
  • They'll be able to use the electoral register, in combination with other easily obtainable data to identify people who used to be members of rival political parties. Better abolish the electoral register then, just in case we ever get an authoritarian Government.
  • How about the police force. Imagine how useful a dictatorship will find it to have all these police officers around, able to arrest people, along with cells in police stations to put dissidents in, and jails to lock them up in. Guess we'd better disband the police right now then, and get rid of all prisons.
  • Oh, and the army. Obvious means to intimidate the population. That's going to have to go.
Hopefully these examples demonstrate how daft it is to use 'but what if the UK Government becomes more authoritarian in a few decades time' as a primary basis for policy-making today. The reality is, if we don't implement road charging and therefore collect data like this today, there won't be anything to stop a future authoritarian Government doing it anyway if it so chooses. It'll maybe take it an extra year or two, but it'll be able to. The technology will be relatively easy to develop (or possibly just buy in from China or somewhere if they are willing to sell some). The only thing you achieve by refusing to do it now on the basis of a remote possibility of a bad Government in the future is you lose the ability to do some very useful things that help society today.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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There is no expectation of privacy out in public.

Yes, there absolutely is.

Guess I must be imagining all those other people I see whenever I go out in public who can look at me and - if they know me - say exactly who I am and where I am at what time. Along with all those CCTV cameras all over the place in city centres etc. videoing my movements. And (if I'm in a car) those cameras using my number plate to check my speed or check whether I'm going over a red light.
 
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The Ham

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Yes, there absolutely is. You are thinking purely in terms of whether someone can take a photo of you in a public place, which in many ways is more about not infringing their rights.
If there was no right to avoid being identified and located why can you legally refuse to tell a policeman your details or what you are doing?

Whilst you can refuse to tell a policemen your details your car had to display their identification (numberplate) for all to see at all times. Not to do so would result in you getting into trouble fairly quickly.

Numberplates have been mandatory for quite some time now in a way that ID cards would nearly never be so widely accepted.

There's a fair amount of freely available data once a numberplate is entered into various publicly accessible websites, for instance is the car taxed, when the MOT is due, details about the type of car (make, middle, colour, engine size, transmission, etc.) and so on.

However none of it is linked to you.

If you wish to be scared about something then don't have staff ID on display. I did a test once, I Googled someone's name on a train and found out when their birthday was. Not from their social media, which was fairly tightly locked down, but from one of their friends wishing them happy birthday. This was done within a 20 minute train journey. If I could have been bothered I'm sure I could have found out more information. For instance there's likely to have been a birthday wish identifying their age somewhere along the line or using the same friend's social media images of them which could help to identify other friends and their details.

Likewise I'm aware of someone who, by viewing social media (image which showed in the background a view from a window) and then by paying for the land registry details, identified the home address of someone. (To be fair they did know the area in question very well).

It's not hard to do if you know the right places to look and have a motivation to do so. There thing that stops most people is that it's not quick and for some things there's charges. However if time wasn't a factor there's quite a bit which you could find out if you so wished.
 

The Ham

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The reason why many people use cars, is because the public transport system is quite frankly ****! Especially the buses. The way to get people out of their cars, is to improve public transport, so that it is genuinely usable, and isn't something you have to use because you don't have a car.
Not some draconian unfair taxing system.

Currently the tax on fuel is typically something like 6-9p per mile (depending on how efficient your vehicle is). Any new power mile charge is likely to be an average rate of a similar amount, so as to replace lost revenue as more cars become electric.

In rural areas then the charge is likely to be lower than this typical amount, whilst urban areas will be higher. This will mean that those areas where there's good public transport will be charged a lot more for driving than those where public transport is not an option.

For instance a family driving their children 2.9 miles to the nearest village for school may be charged 2p per mile, whilst those driving 2.9 miles past several schools to get their child to the "right" school in an urban area might be charged 21p per mile.

Those in the urban area could end up therefore with a charge of about £2.52 a day (assuming a x3 the current tax rate) for taking their child to school whilst the rural family would be charged about 24p (compared with the current charge of say 84p).

The urban family would have the ability to avoid the £2.52 in tax by using other methods of travel or by using to go to a school closer to home. However if congestion was a major problem (let's say going through Camden) the per mile charge could be much higher, maybe even as much as 63p per mile (x9 the current rate), pushing that daily charge for the school run up to £7.56.

Can you explain, why when compared to the current taxes, such a per mile charge would be unfair? As those who can most easily avoid it would be able to do so by making modal shift from cars to other modes of transport.

The higher the charge the lower the uptake of driving, quite possibly to the point where road space can be redistributed to provide more space for pedestrians and cyclists. This could even include the closure to through traffic (either physically or by means of a, say, £5 charge for driving through a residential area on top of the typical per mile rate) of many more side roads.

Now whilst there's be cries of "what about deliveries" most deliveries would require a stop of long enough to identify that the vehicle had reason to be in there, even a post through the door Amazon delivery would likely have more than one in a fairly small area and so would slow down enough to register as such, even for a road with terraced houses where the doors are at the back of the footway.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Now whilst there's be cries of "what about deliveries" most deliveries would require a stop of long enough to identify that the vehicle had reason to be in there, even a post through the door Amazon delivery would likely have more than one in a fairly small area and so would slow down enough to register as such, even for a road with terraced houses where the doors are at the back of the footway.

I'd be somewhat surprised if there are as many delivery vehicles around in 10 years'-ish time given the current trials of using robots to deliver (and drones, but those are much more problematic in urban areas as well as currently illegal near most buildings). I don't personally see a problem with charging delivery vehicles the same high-ish per mile charge that similar vehicles would be expected to pay in urban areas. In the first place, they cause just as much damage to the local environment/etc. as other vehicles, so it's not unreasonable to expect those who run (or use) them to pay for that damage. And in the second place, a proportionate road charge for them would almost certainly incentivise delivery companies to better optimise their use so they get more deliveries for fewer vehicle miles.
 

The Ham

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I'd be somewhat surprised if there are as many delivery vehicles around in 10 years'-ish time given the current trials of using robots to deliver (and drones, but those are much more problematic in urban areas as well as currently illegal near most buildings). I don't personally see a problem with charging delivery vehicles the same high-ish per mile charge that similar vehicles would be expected to pay in urban areas. In the first place, they cause just as much damage to the local environment/etc. as other vehicles, so it's not unreasonable to expect those who run (or use) them to pay for that damage. And in the second place, a proportionate road charge for them would almost certainly incentivise delivery companies to better optimise their use so they get more deliveries for fewer vehicle miles.

Sorry I may not have been clear, the point with delivery vehicles was only related to those passing through an area with would otherwise result in a significant additional charge for rat-running vehicles.
 

87 027

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I may be missing something but once we have all gone EV is the damage to the environment (other than congestion) quite so markedly different in rural vs. urban areas? Whether Camden or the Western Isles, the electricity is ultimately coming from the same National Grid via the Distribution Network Operators, and if people feed into it via solar panels that is a whole separate question dealt with via electricity billing.

Sure there is road maintenance, I live on an unadopted road and we have to organise and pay for repairs out of our own pockets so I know all about that. (Adoption has been looked into but is too expensive now.)

At the risk of going OT, with the school run examples, I realise not all posters will have personal experience of this, but choice and availability of schools is based on many factors other than physical proximity. In my part of the world, we still have grammar schools and the 11+ exam, so you could live practically next door but still not get in because you don’t meet their admission criteria. There are other societal factors which interplay with all of this and it isn’t necessarily pure free choice.
 

Meerkat

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OK lets's imagine that in 10 years' time, the UK will turn into an authoritarian dictatorship, and use your logic:
  • This dictatorship will find tv incredibly useful to push out propaganda to everyone. Guess we'd better abolish tv tomorrow, to make sure that can't happen.
  • They'll be able to use the electoral register, in combination with other easily obtainable data to identify people who used to be members of rival political parties. Better abolish the electoral register then, just in case we ever get an authoritarian Government.
  • How about the police force. Imagine how useful a dictatorship will find it to have all these police officers around, able to arrest people, along with cells in police stations to put dissidents in, and jails to lock them up in. Guess we'd better disband the police right now then, and get rid of all prisons.
  • Oh, and the army. Obvious means to intimidate the population. That's going to have to go.

And that’s why the freedom of the press is so important, and why any extensions of police powers are so rigorously resisted. Also why the police themselves make such a lot of effort to maintain “policing by consent” and not become a state police.
 

edwin_m

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I may be missing something but once we have all gone EV is the damage to the environment (other than congestion) quite so markedly different in rural vs. urban areas? Whether Camden or the Western Isles, the electricity is ultimately coming from the same National Grid via the Distribution Network Operators, and if people feed into it via solar panels that is a whole separate question dealt with via electricity billing.

Sure there is road maintenance, I live on an unadopted road and we have to organise and pay for repairs out of our own pockets so I know all about that. (Adoption has been looked into but is too expensive now.)

At the risk of going OT, with the school run examples, I realise not all posters will have personal experience of this, but choice and availability of schools is based on many factors other than physical proximity. In my part of the world, we still have grammar schools and the 11+ exam, so you could live practically next door but still not get in because you don’t meet their admission criteria. There are other societal factors which interplay with all of this and it isn’t necessarily pure free choice.
CO2 from fossil fuel burning or electricity production affects everyone equally, but other emissions have more effect in populated areas because there are more people nearby. For fossil fuels this relates mainly to NOx and exhaust particulates, but both electric and fossil fuel vehicles create tyre particulates which some people reckon are about as bad as those from engines. In fact they may be more from an electric vehicle, as it's probably heavier than the internal combustion equivalent. Noise and accidents probably have more impact in populated areas, although this may be offset by lower speed limits. So the difference between impacts (excluding congestion) on urban or rural areas reduces with EVs but doesn't disappear entirely.

Choice of schools is one of many societal factors that have been enabled by mass car ownership - in previous years virtually everyone went to the school whose catchment they lived in. So we need to find a response to a future environment where car travel isn't so easy but people will still want to travel far more than they did last time that was in the case in the 1950s. For things like school journeys this could include things such as better cycling facilities, much more frequent and integrated bus services (trams in some cases) and micromobility options such as electric scooters.
 

87 027

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This morning I was reading an academic evaluation of the Lorry Road User Charge scheme that HMRC worked on for several years in the 2000s before the decision was taken not to go ahead with implementation. This was exactly the sort of scheme that is being proposed here, i.e. charging based on real time tracking of roads travelled down and road-level pricing. The idea was that both UK and non-UK lorries would be charged, but to level the playing field UK lorries would be given an equivalent tax rebate - so overseas lorries paid a "fairer share" for road usage given that road tolls are quite rare in the UK but common in mainland Europe.

The study noted that whilst the GPS location tracking element would be fairly straightforward, determining and updating the appropriate pricing for every stretch of road would be rather more complex. It is not a technical matter of populating the database tables, it is agreeing what principles, factors and assumptions are used as inputs to the calculation - and avoiding perverse outcomes. It also noted the potential for displacement, i.e. price-sensitive but not time-sensitive hauliers deliberately taking longer and more circuitous but lower priced routes to their destination and this would increase emissions overall.

The devil is in the detail.

I for one would be very enthusiastic about the legalisation of electric scooters.
 

edwin_m

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It also noted the potential for displacement, i.e. price-sensitive but not time-sensitive hauliers deliberately taking longer and more circuitous but lower priced routes to their destination and this would increase emissions overall.
That's less of an issue if the trucks are EVs powered mainly by nuclear and renewables. There would still be local effects such as noise, accidents and tyre particulates, but a lower-priced route would probably be one that avoids urban areas and therefore exposes fewer people to them. IC engined vehicles would have to be charged similarly under any road pricing scheme but would also still pay fuel tax, as an incentive to reduce fuel usage and CO2 emissions.
 

DynamicSpirit

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On a different note, it just occurred to me that there's another potential advantage of cars reporting their locations to a central database: If real-time analysis was being done (which is an extra step up technology-wise) and if the geographical accuracy was to within a few metres), the system would be able to instantly detect a fair proportion of car accidents. A car leaving the boundary of a known road at speed for example. And any crash that resulted in vehicles suddenly stopping from a high speed, or a collision that showed up as two travelling vehicles suddenly reporting virtually the same location as each other. This could result in emergency services being summoned before anyone has even had time to dial 999, which could well save a few lives. Certain types of dangerous driving would also be detectable - for example, you'd no longer having idiots driving at 60mph through residential streets, or youths having dangerous overtaking competitions on public roads - because they'd almost immediately be detected.
 

Bald Rick

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I’m finding this debate all rather amusing.

A significant proportion of cars and vans are already tracked and report real time location data to a ‘central’ database. Pretty much every organisation with a big fleet does it, as do many people who want to lower their insurance costs, and some more recent models of car.

Similarly, anyone carrying a mobile phone is having their location tracked and reported.

I see this as a good thing. I genuinely don’t understand why anyone is concerned about it.
 

Meerkat

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I’m finding this debate all rather amusing.

A significant proportion of cars and vans are already tracked and report real time location data to a ‘central’ database. Pretty much every organisation with a big fleet does it, as do many people who want to lower their insurance costs, and some more recent models of car.

Similarly, anyone carrying a mobile phone is having their location tracked and reported.

I see this as a good thing. I genuinely don’t understand why anyone is concerned about it.

Which cars and insurance schemes include recording their location?
I don’t understand how someone could not be concerned about the state tracking their location!
 

The Ham

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I would ban the electric scooters - way too dangerous

In what way are they more dangerous than a non electric version or an electric cycle?

I'd suggest that the biggest risk from having them on the roads (where the suggestion is that they would be) is from cars. If we were to be considering allowing cycles onto our roads is suggest that similar objections would be forth coming. However for anyone who is a car driver the now people who use other modes of travel the better it is for those who remain as car drivers.

I give you the example of the school holidays when traffic volumes of non tourists areas drop significantly, view of only there was another example I could cite where traffic has fallen leaving that it's easier to drive around for the few cars still doing so....
 

AM9

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I’m finding this debate all rather amusing.

A significant proportion of cars and vans are already tracked and report real time location data to a ‘central’ database. Pretty much every organisation with a big fleet does it, as do many people who want to lower their insurance costs, and some more recent models of car.

Similarly, anyone carrying a mobile phone is having their location tracked and reported.

I see this as a good thing. I genuinely don’t understand why anyone is concerned about it.
There's more than that. Increasingly since EU directive 2015/758, most cars are being supplied fitted with telematics that via a GSM modem, send status and maintenance data back to the manufacturers and provide emergency rescue facilities. In 2020, all new cars will be required to carry this equipment as a condition of type approval. Given that there is now really no such thing as a 'British' car, and all cars sold in the UK will be built to EU standards, it is unlikely the the UK government will change the law to create a standard that would just raise the cost of buying new cars and complicate their maintenance. In addition, European specification cars made by UK outposts of far east manufacturers would be made to the full European standard, so there would be an inbuilt capability, even in IC cars, easing the task of introducing a use-based taxing system by any UK government in the future.
 

87 027

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A colleague of mine (more precisely his son) had a bad experience with a black box insurance scheme. His son got several warnings and a final warning before compulsory termination for speeding violations. It turned out the mapping data was out of date and hadn’t reflected a recent increase in speed limit from 30 to 40 on a short stretch of road near his house. Having insurance terminated is a serious matter you must declare on new proposals so in the end he just cancelled it altogether.
 

Bald Rick

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Which cars and insurance schemes include recording their location?
I don’t understand how someone could not be concerned about the state tracking their location!

I don’t have a full list of cars that record location, but I know that when my father took his 8 year old Nissan for a repair to his engine management system, they told him they knew he had broken the speed limit on his way there!

Also, there was a recent conviction for murder in Anglesey where key evidence for the trial was location information retrieved from the Land Rover he had borrowed on the night of the murder; the car had been destroyed, but all the data was held at Jaguar Land Rover’s data centre. Without this he would have got away with it. See this (long) article:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51466273

It’s reasonable to assume that all new Jaguars and Land Rovers have the same technology. I’d be surprised if most other manufacturers don’t have the same.
EDIT: just seen @AM9’s comment, and have now remembered such technology is mandatory for all cars from this year.

But why should I be worried if the State is tracking my vehicle’s location? I’ve got nothing to hide. Indeed having had a couple pinched in the past, I would have found it rather useful.
 
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Meerkat

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In what way are they more dangerous than a non electric version or an electric cycle?
They are dangerous for pedestrians if they are on the path and dangerous for the riders if on the road (as the French have found out)

There's more than that. Increasingly since EU directive 2015/758, most cars are being supplied fitted with telematics that via a GSM modem
They work via your phone don’t they, so you can just not connect it

Also, there was a recent conviction for murder in Anglesey where key evidence for the trial was location information retrieved from the Land Rover he had borrowed on the night of the murder; the car had been destroyed, but all the data was held at Jaguar Land Rover’s data centre
That must be pretty if for data protection - I hope they actively get your permission to store that information.

But why should I be worried if the State is tracking my vehicle’s location? I’ve got nothing to hide.
Because one day the State’s politics might diverge enough from yours that they consider you a threat.
 
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