Conwy Valley Line closed

[Signal_Box]

If they can get away with it, they (or their contractors) will absolutely do so.

After all, the fudiciary duty of the management of NR or its contractors would drive them to take said expedient action as far as they can get away with.

That’s a very unfair, and offensive to the staff working across the U.K. under intense pressures to get the network back on track after incidents like this.

The actual situation is often gold plated especially on this line which has seen extensive disruption due to weather over the last few years to ensure its robust for the future.

 

[Starmill]

If they can get away with it, they (or their contractors) will absolutely do so.

After all, the fudiciary duty of the management of NR or its contractors would drive them to take said expedient action as far as they can get away with.

Very cynical take. Not that I'm saying this doesn't happen but most large organisations are careful to pay for advice to comply with the law. Not doing so results in their reputation being damaged at far greater expense than the original issue.

 

[HSTEd]

That’s a very unfair, and offensive to the staff working across the U.K. under intense pressures to get the network back on track after incidents like this.

The reality is that the regulatory regime exists for a reason - and that reason is a long history of practices that are no longer considered acceptable.

You might consider the railway to be above such practices with no further meaningful oversight, but I don't think that belief can reasonably be expanded to every single contractor that the railway might employ, or their subcontractors, or their subcontractors etc etc etc.

The reality of modern competitive tendering is that a race to the bottom is very difficult to prevent once it has begun. As a result, we must be eternally vigilant, and above all trust no one.

Issuing licenses retroactively is a very dangerous precedent to set.

 

[Ploughman]

In the 2 cases I was involved with. 1 family was relocated to a Concrete pipe sett and the other was evicted by use of netting and One way gates.
Both cases had to have MAFF (As it was at the time) permission and no disturbance allowed without there say so.
The relocation took about 9 months to achieve with no great problems.
The forced eviction was another story.
Once the site had been devegged, netted and gates installed, after about 6 months MAFF gave the go ahead to block up the holes by using cement grout, as in brickwork repairs in tunnels. I think we used about 8 cu metres of grout pumped into the sett. It covered a fair length of track whatever.
Mr and Mrs Badger were not impressed or at all phased with our efforts, they promptly dug another sett under the track a month later.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yesterday there were two Network Rail vans and a Network Rail minibus parked by the bridge over the Afon Lledr about two miles south of Betws y Coed

Sounds like a consultancy job for Iolo Williams, who's the respected wildlife champion for Wales.
It's not far from his usual tramping ground at the RSPB reserve at Llandudno Junction.

 

[175001]

Line shut till Tuesday at the latest

 

[zwk500]

The reality is that the regulatory regime exists for a reason - and that reason is a long history of practices that are no longer considered acceptable.

You might consider the railway to be above such practices with no further meaningful oversight, but I don't think that belief can reasonably be expanded to every single contractor that the railway might employ, or their subcontractors, or their subcontractors etc etc etc.

The reality of modern competitive tendering is that a race to the bottom is very difficult to prevent once it has begun. As a result, we must be eternally vigilant, and above all trust no one.

Issuing licenses retroactively is a very dangerous precedent to set.

I'm confused, the earlier post suggested that NR or it's contractors would be cutting corners and asking questions later, now you are suggesting they will obey the letter of the law. Which is it?

FWIW, NR would be very hesitant about working with a contractor that had been shown to break the law and apply for retrospective permission, as the financial liabilities are immense.

 

[Bald Rick]

Meanwhile people’s lives are disrupted, TfW loses money in fares and Network Rail loses money carrying out repairs and compensating TfW.

To be fair, when that line is closed it saves the railway a load of cash.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm confused, the earlier post suggested that NR or it's contractors would be cutting corners and asking questions later, now you are suggesting they will obey the letter of the law. Which is it?

I'm suggesting that any loosening of the regulations would lead to a race to the bottom and thus to the situation suggested in my first post.
Whatever your feeling for NR's own position on such things, the reality of subcontracting is that unless you trust literally everyone in the country, you can trust noone.

 

[Brush 4]

.....and that is why contracting out is bad practice in all industries and needs to be returned to in house operation for efficiency, speed and lower costs. The last 30 years have been a disaster for rail. It doesn't mean renationalising, just keeping everything in house. Trouble is, the staff from those days have gone, never to return.

 

[Bald Rick]

.....and that is why contracting out is bad practice in all industries and needs to be returned to in house operation for efficiency, speed and lower costs. The last 30 years have been a disaster for rail. It doesn't mean renationalising, just keeping everything in house. Trouble is, the staff from those days have gone, never to return.

But how far do you go with insourcing?

BR contracted out loads of work - resignalling, electrification, major Civils, etc etc.

Or do you anticipate going back to the GWR method of owning th e forests for the wood that the draughtsmen’s pencils are made from?

 

[Brush 4]

As much as is possible, whatever that may be. More difficult after everything has been disbanded but, constantly relearning history, reinventing the wheel, can't be efficient. The GWR electrification hadn't learnt from previous schemes and was over-specced. Many other examples no doubt.

 

[zwk500]

As much as is possible, whatever that may be. More difficult after everything has been disbanded but, constantly relearning history, reinventing the wheel, can't be efficient. The GWR electrification hadn't learnt from previous schemes and was over-specced. Many other examples no doubt.

There's no reason you can't learn lessons from other people. Bringing everything in-house would be very inefficient when you're not using them - and having external contractors means they can gain experience elsewhere between NR projects.

 

[Signal_Box]

To be fair, when that line is closed it saves the railway a load of cash.

Does it though in reality? If that was the case the majority of lines would have been closed during the early dark days of covid.

I think, I stand corrected some European countries closed lines but they still needed inspections and occasional test trains to keep systems in operational order.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does it though in reality?

Yes.

If that was the case the majority of lines would have been closed during the early dark days of covid.

Lines were kept open during Covid for essential workers to get to work. It was about U.K. economics, not railway economics.

it’s reasonable to assume that in the event of another lockdown, a different strategy would be used.

 

[Signal_Box]

Yes.



Lines were kept open during Covid for essential workers to get to work. It was about U.K. economics, not railway economics.

it’s reasonable to assume that in the event of another lockdown, a different strategy would be used.

You can’t just close a line, then open it up again at a point in the future. Asset inspections need to be kept upto date for a start. The wear and tear cuts yes are reduced but like any mechanical equipment it’ll need maintenance to ensure it works when required so there will still be costs trains or not.

 

[Bald Rick]

You can’t just close a line, then open it up again at a point in the future. Asset inspections need to be kept upto date for a start. The wear and tear cuts yes are reduced but like any mechanical equipment it’ll need maintenance to ensure it works when required so there will still be costs trains or not.

Well, actually, you can. And we did in the early part of Covid, only nobody noticed.

You only need to do asset inspections if you’re going to use it - it’s quite possible to reduce frequency or even stop them if nothing is running. (I’ve done this personally during long engineering blocks).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

.....and that is why contracting out is bad practice in all industries and needs to be returned to in house operation for efficiency, speed and lower costs. The last 30 years have been a disaster for rail. It doesn't mean renationalising, just keeping everything in house. Trouble is, the staff from those days have gone, never to return.

There is a dividing line between in- and out- sourcing depending on the volume of work and need to keep up with technology and best practice.
Outsourcing basic maintenance was a step too far in the 1990s, but research and development, rolling stock manufacture and maintenance, signalling technology, catering etc have long gone down the outsourcing route - it's much the same outside the UK.
Put bluntly, the UK railway is not big or influential enough to employ all its functions in-house.

The airline and shipping industries manage very well (mostly) on an outsourced basis (or a careful mix of ownership and hire).

 

[Signal_Box]

Well, actually, you can. And we did in the early part of Covid, only nobody noticed.

You only need to do asset inspections if you’re going to use it - it’s quite possible to reduce frequency or even stop them if nothing is running. (I’ve done this personally during long engineering blocks).

Okay. Well you are much more in the know what me so I’ll withdraw and surrender to your knowledge.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the closure of the Conwy Valley Line. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread in the relevant forum section.

 

[GardenRail]

Just seen it’s closed due to ‘structural issue’. Anyone know what’s up?!

Spends more time shut, this line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spends more time shut, this line.

Hasn't been closed long term due to weather at all since those rocks were dumped alongside the previously vulnerable section.

 

[samrammstein]

Line appears to have reopened today with at least one service on RTT having run.

 

[ricoblade]

Line appears to have reopened today with at least one service on RTT having run.

Excellent, my mum can't drive at the moment and has been looking at getting the train from Sheffield to stay near Rhyl and then doing a day out on the FR via the Conwy line, we were just talking about it yesterday.

 

[175001]

Spends more time shut, this line.

Erm. No it doesn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2023 ==

Line appears to have reopened today with at least one service on RTT having run.

Indeed. The mid morning departure looked to be a empty stock proving run. Rest of the day is normal working.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Erm. No it doesn't.

Being one of the stereotypical Beeching survivors (in this case due to the nuclear power station) alongside the Marston Vale, it tends to be rather focused-upon by this Forum and its supporters - and its "wannabe Beechings". So anything about it will be reported.

The Caledonian Sleeper is similar.

 

[175001]

Being one of the stereotypical Beeching survivors (in this case due to the nuclear power station) alongside the Marston Vale, it tends to be rather focused-upon by this Forum and its supporters - and its "wannabe Beechings". So anything about it will be reported.

The Caledonian Sleeper is similar.

Oh I know right. Some on this forum would happily see it gone!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Line appears to have reopened today with at least one service on RTT having run.

Presume Mr. & Mrs. Badger have therefore been evicted and re-housed outwith the local area?

 

[Krokodil]

I'd be interested to see if there's been any growth with the 197s.

Any growth would have been tempered by the removal of services when the service was suspended during the 175 crisis. Disruption such as this also makes it more likely that residents of Blaenau might take up driving lessons. What will have improved things for the railway is that the loss of the T19 bus now means that the railway has a monopoly of public transport heading north from Blaenau, as well as for villages like Maenan where the 19X bus now only calls twice a day southbound, once northbound. The repair of the former railway bridge over the Conwy at Dolgarrog and officially designating it as a proper footpath has also contributed to a noticeable increase in traffic at this station (at one point the quietest in Wales).

To be fair, when that line is closed it saves the railway a load of cash.

How? The staff still get paid, a unit was still being diagrammed, mother nature still batters the infrastructure, and the bus company will have left a bill. Temporary closures won't save any money. A permanent one would of course but thankfully that would be politically unacceptable.

 

[Starmill]

How? The staff still get paid, a unit was still being diagrammed, mother nature still batters the infrastructure, and the bus company will have left a bill. Temporary closures won't save any money. A permanent one would of course but thankfully that would be politically unacceptable.

When the Llandudno shuttles are cancelled the crew and the unit are able to be redeployed. Next to nobody is on the Llandudno Junction - Llandudno stubs when they're not through from Blaunau.