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Contactless card on the underground

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MikeWh

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Does anyone know how long weeklies have been sold starting on any day? I vividly remember in my youth having a southern region rover ticket which had been erroneously printed on that weeks season ticket stock. IIRC the ticket had a large outline number which made it easier to check if it was in date or not. I'm 99% certain that in those days the week ran from Mon-Sun.
 
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jon0844

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I would expect that Oyster (and any ITSO compliant upgraded version) will still remain for season ticket holders, which would include people buying a weekly or monthly ticket.

If we're to have flexible season tickets, I'd also expect that to be managed by a dedicated smartcard.

I see payments by contact less card replacing what few cash transactions there are, as well as helping tourists and occasional visitors/travellers - but still with the benefit of a capping system (which could be seen as the carrot to get people to stop using cash entirely, and certainly stop needing the use of any ticket office).
 

Deerfold

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Does anyone know how long weeklies have been sold starting on any day? I vividly remember in my youth having a southern region rover ticket which had been erroneously printed on that weeks season ticket stock. IIRC the ticket had a large outline number which made it easier to check if it was in date or not. I'm 99% certain that in those days the week ran from Mon-Sun.

I don't in London but I know many places used to have them starting on Mondays - certainly in Halifax in the 70s the bus passes started on a Monday and were only sold on Mondays and Tuesdays.

I've come across cities abroad that still do this making it uneconomic for many tourists to get anything longer than a daily ticket.
 

Be3G

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Contractors, for example?

Capping in this way by itself is not an issue, but if paper tickets are going to be removed in the long run, then they better make sure that people who currently buy weeklies starting midweek are not unfairly penalised. Not everyone buys them every week and travel patterns can change. If I have a long weekend then I may well buy one next week starting from the first day when I am back at work.

Ah, I see your thinking now – a slightly more cynical view that perhaps the idea is weekly seasons will be abandoned entirely. Whilst I agree that it looks like all forms of paper ticket in London are on the way out, I'd be very surprised if weekly seasons were eradicated altogether, even on Oyster. I've seen repeated mentions (from TfL) that the Oyster card is going to remain and in fact continue to be developed.
 

jon0844

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I can't see Oyster ever being scrapped and just replaced with a system that relies on people having (and wanting to use) a contract less debit or credit card. The former might not have enough money on it, the latter might incur interest charges.

People can buy a smartcard for travel and know that any money on it is only for travel. The card can be topped up by themselves or even others, online (although I'm not sure if there's an official way to do this other than logging in to that person's account).

Contactless cards are merely another way to allow people to travel, and an excellent option to give people. I expect most people will be infrequent travellers who would probably only benefit from the daily capping anyway. It's just that you might as well offer a weekly cap too if it's simple to do. Once you've done the daily limit, I guess there's not much extra work involved - at least not if you set a rigid timeframe for that week.
 

RJ

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That's one of the documents from the LUL intranet. I went through the intranet quite extensively and couldn't find any references to a code 89. The one I've seen from the TOC intranet has more entries than that, including the one discussed in this thread. I think there are minor differences in the programming of TOC and LUL barriers.
 
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Kentish Paul

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Does anyone know how long weeklies have been sold starting on any day? I vividly remember in my youth having a southern region rover ticket which had been erroneously printed on that weeks season ticket stock. IIRC the ticket had a large outline number which made it easier to check if it was in date or not. I'm 99% certain that in those days the week ran from Mon-Sun.

Have been using weeklies for 9 months and starting them on any day. You have to buy them after midday if you want them to start the following day. (Southeastern).

I work shifts on a 7 on 4/3 off day/night pattern. Great for the day shifts where a 7 day ticket covers it all. On nights however you need 8 days travel. An off peak single to get to work on the first day and a 7 day travelcard for the rest. This means I have the luxury of a day roaming the 6 zones on the 7th day after finishing at 07:00hrs.:D
 

bb21

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This means I have the luxury of a day roaming the 6 zones on the 7th day after finishing at 07:00hrs.:D

I would have thought that most people would like to catch up on their sleep after a night shift rather than roaming around London. ;)
 

swt_passenger

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It is interesting to read the confidence that Oyster will remain in use (e.g. for seasons) in various threads on this and similar subjects. I noticed this statement in one of TfL's board papers the other day:

The acceptance of Contactless Payment Cards (CPCs) is a first step towards a new ticketing system that will replace the existing Oyster platform, which is expensive to administer.
Future Ticketing Phase 1 introduced the CPC platform on the bus network, to work in parallel with Oyster. Phase 2 will expand coverage to the Rail and Underground networks and is underway. Phase 3 will expand the functionality to include adult season tickets.
The project is due to complete in June 2015.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/PPP-20140109-Item05-Project-Monitoring.pdf

"Future Ticketing Programme – Phase 3" on page 12
 

transmanche

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It is interesting to read the confidence that Oyster will remain in use (e.g. for seasons) in various threads on this and similar subjects. I noticed this statement in one of TfL's board papers the other day:
I think perhaps you're inferring something from that which wasn't intended.

Have a look at these two reports from the London Assembly:
http://www.london.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s5079/The Future of Ticketing - Appendix 1.pdf
http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/The Future of Ticketing FINAL.pdf

London Assembly said:
TfL reports that its plans for future ticketing will save money. It states, for example, that introducing contactless bank cards as tickets will result in a cheaper and easier ticketing system to manage. The current Oyster card system is expensive and complex. For every £1 TfL collects from Oyster card ticket sales, 14 pence is spent on the actual system. The Oyster system relies heavily on the cards themselves and the readers. By contrast, the technology for the contactless payment system is rooted in back offices. The new system will not require TfL to issue any cards and it will not involve the card readers having to hold detailed fares information and transfer it to the cards.

In the longer term, the introduction of contactless bank cards could provide scope for TfL to develop a new fares policy and ticket products. With the new technology rooted in back offices with unlimited capacity, TfL could develop more sophisticated, tailored fares. It might be able to provide peak hour pricing, develop loyalty programmes, and improve its offer for groups whose travel patterns vary e.g. part time workers.

The Committee will explore the potential implications for TfL of its plans for ticketing. This will include examining TfL’s reasons for allowing the use of contactless bank cards as tickets and how far this development might save money, especially as the Oyster card system will continue to operate. The Committee will explore the extent to which the contactless payment system will be easier to manage and will resolve issues that have arisen with the Oyster card system. The Committee will also consider potential longer term benefits for TfL from the introduction of contactless bank card payment relating to its fares policy and ticket products.
 

swt_passenger

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transmanche

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The report I just quoted is a few weeks old, the London assembly reports are 2 years old...

Just saying...
And? Do you have any evidence that the plans have changed?

I'm guessing that you didn't actually read the reports; which suggest to me that TfL want to move from 'front office' (card/card reader based processing) system to a 'back office' system to save money. That is the 'Oyster platform replacement' referred to. This will reduce (but not eliminate) the number of Oyster cards in circulation, as some people will choose to use other cards (contactless payment or other ITSO cards) instead.
 
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swt_passenger

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And? Do you have any evidence that the plans have changed?

I'm guessing that you didn't actually read the reports; which suggest to me that TfL want to move from 'front office' (card/card reader based processing) system to a 'back office' system to save money. That is the 'Oyster platform replacement' referred to. This will reduce (but not eliminate) the number of Oyster cards in circulation, as some people will choose to use other cards (contactless payment or other ITSO cards) instead.

I'm simply going by the plain english meaning of the words "replace the existing Oyster platform".

You're welcome to interpret that differently...
 

transmanche

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[I'm simply going by the plain english meaning of the words "replace the existing Oyster platform".[/QUOTE]The crucial word being 'platform'.

You're welcome to interpret that differently...
Try reading the reports, then I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusion as me.
 

DJL

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Is it possible that long term oyster cards would be kept for travel cards only. If this substantially reduces the complexity of the system (a ticket is either valid at a given gate or it is not - no caps to worry about for example) then it may become practical to retain it.
Indeed it may be preferable over implementing the same functionality on an alien system
 

Be3G

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It is interesting to read the confidence that Oyster will remain in use (e.g. for seasons) in various threads on this and similar subjects. I noticed this statement in one of TfL's board papers the other day:

My assumption is it's the platform that's going to be replaced, not the Oyster card itself. In other words, the card will remain, but running on a different platform (by which I mean the back-end infrastructure). Note too that your quote only refers to adult seasons; child and 18+ seasons would still need to be catered for.
 

bicbasher

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ITSO will replace Oyster to an extent for National Rail customers who use Travelcards, which will be a relief to the likes of SWT and Southeastern who have recently removed Oyster facilities from their TIS at selected stations within London.

The key to Oyster's success has been the integration, contactless cards should offer a similar level of flexibility for the majority of customers within London except those with concessionary fares, although if NR ITSO products could be used on London's buses under agreement with TfL alongside a PAYG product for the London travelcard zones, this could be a solution to those who don't wish like myself to use a debit or credit card directly to pay.
 

talldave

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The downside of using contactless credit/debit cards instead of Oyster is the risk that they might occasionally demand PIN input - which you can't do on a ticket barrier or bus. TfL advice on this point (for bus travel) is to get off and go to a shop to buy something! An Oyster card perhaps??!!
 

island

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The downside of using contactless credit/debit cards instead of Oyster is the risk that they might occasionally demand PIN input - which you can't do on a ticket barrier or bus. TfL advice on this point (for bus travel) is to get off and go to a shop to buy something! An Oyster card perhaps??!!

Yes, this is suboptimal. Making a balance enquiry at an ATM will also do, though.
 

Deerfold

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The downside of using contactless credit/debit cards instead of Oyster is the risk that they might occasionally demand PIN input - which you can't do on a ticket barrier or bus. TfL advice on this point (for bus travel) is to get off and go to a shop to buy something! An Oyster card perhaps??!!

Where have you seen this advice? You should not have problems with a card asking for PIN input when boarding a bus.
 

maniacmartin

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It's detailed on http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/Using_contactless_payment_cards_on_buses.pdf

TfL said:
From time to time your card issuer requires that you enter your PIN as a security check. If this happens when you are on a bus you will not be able to use your contactless payment card to pay for your
journey

Use a different way to pay for the journey. Make a chip and PIN transaction at another retailer and try your card again on another bus journey. If necessary, contact your card issuer for advice
 
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island

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Yes, from time to time a contactless card will require a chip & PIN transaction to be carried out as a security measure.
 

talldave

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..and the embarrassment caused by the red light and loud beeps of rejection mean that it's not a viable method to use on a regular basis - particularly in rush hour.
 

andrewkeith5

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..and the embarrassment caused by the red light and loud beeps of rejection mean that it's not a viable method to use on a regular basis - particularly in rush hour.

Of course, it's perfectly fine if you use your cards PIN number every so often... I only have one contactless card that has ever declined a transaction with a PIN request, because I only ever use that card for contactless and online transactions so every so often Barclaycard like to know it's still me using it.

Every other contactless card I have has never asked for a PIN on a contactless transaction because I use the PIN for other transactions regularly enough.
 

Be3G

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I wish I'd seen that before I filled in my (already negative) response to the cashless buses consultation last year. I find this statement particularly ironic:

Some types of CPC are not accepted for travel and some cards may occasionally be rejected because the issuer requires additional authorisation. If this happens, the bus driver will not be able to resolve the situation; you will need to find another way to pay for that journey.

If we're all being encouraged to use contactless bank cards where possible rather than Oyster (meaning some people will surely stop carrying Oysters eventually), and the facility to pay with cash is removed, what exactly is the passenger expected to do?! Not every bus stop in London is conveniently located next to a shop or ATM.
 

andrewkeith5

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If we're all being encouraged to use contactless bank cards where possible rather than Oyster (meaning some people will surely stop carrying Oysters eventually), and the facility to pay with cash is removed, what exactly is the passenger expected to do?! Not every bus stop in London is conveniently located next to a shop or ATM.

As I said above, if the card is regularly used for PIN transactions this won't be a problem. Contactless only requests a PIN after a number of "customer not present" or "no cardholder verification" transactions. Therefore if the card is used like a normal debit/credit card (i.e. every so often there's a PIN transaction or balance check of any amount) there won't be an issue.

Similarly, I'd bet the majority of people probably have more than one credit/debit card which will provide cover as I doubt by the time Oyster goes that it will be that difficult to get a contactless card. Anyone can go and get one whilst they wait at Metro Bank and some Barclays branches.
 
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jon0844

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..and the embarrassment caused by the red light and loud beeps of rejection mean that it's not a viable method to use on a regular basis - particularly in rush hour.

I think that's a fair point. I use my card contactless as often as I can, and obviously that does sometimes mean being asked to enter a PIN.

That's fine, but does it therefore mean I have to try and make sure to deliberately use C&P just in case I might want to use a bus later?

I'm sure we've already seen what happens when someone gets on and their Oyster doesn't work.. They try over and over, perhaps try and plead with the driver, and then get told to get off and sort it out.

If that's what will happen to people who have a card that HAS got the funds, it's not going to very popular - and that's before the likes of Watchdog and the Daily Mail get involved.
 
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talldave

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I think that's a fair point. I use my card contactless as often as I can, and obviously that does sometimes mean being asked to enter a PIN.

That's fine, but does it therefore mean I have to try and make sure to deliberately use C&P just in case I might want to use a bus later?

Yes! Good for coffee shops no doubt?!
 
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