Contactless card on the underground

[lightbulb]

Having heard that a trial of contactless cards is now operating on TFL, curiosity got the better of me yesterday. I touched in with my contactless credit card at King's Cross St Pancras just after 1900, and to my surprise, the card was accepted, and gates opened, showing the code 89. But on arrival at Hampstead around 25 minutes later, the gate showed code 89 as before, but "seek assistance". The station staff took some convincing that I had indeed used the credit card to enter at St Pancras, but eventually let me out.

How much will I be charged for this journey? I've never had an Oyster card, so am unfamiliar with how it works.

 

[CNash]

AFAIK you need to have signed up for the trial programme in order for contactless cards to work on the Tube, so I'm not sure what's happened in your case. Have you checked your card statement to see how much (if anything) was taken from your card?

 

[island]

Since it happened yesterday it's unlikely to have shown up on the OP's statement yet.

 

[Squaddie]

Since it happened yesterday then it will almost certainly be on the OP's statement by now.

 

[island]

I don't know about you, but for me transactions take two to three days to show up on my statement. Sometimes they are in the "pending transactions" list first, but contactless payments don't go there.

 

[londonbridge]

When I use my contactless card on the bus it shows up as "TFL Bus-London" and, depending on the time of day of the journey, is usually on my statement/money deducted within twenty four hours.

 

[telstarbox]

At the moment contactless cards can only be used on buses, but surely an Oyster reader at a tube barrier would reject a card as it isn't on a bus?

 

[maniacmartin]

At the moment contactless cards can only be used on buses, but surely an Oyster reader at a tube barrier would reject a card as it isn't on a bus?

They're running a trial on the tube for a small group of users who are selected

 

[Deerfold]

They're running a trial on the tube for a small group of users who are selected

It should only allow the relevant users to touch in and out, but perhaps the reader at Kings X was not correctly programmed (whereas the one at Hampstead was).

I wouldn't recommend anyone outside the trial tries it!

 

[ainsworth74]

Does anyone know what code 89 means? That would seem to be important.

 

[maniacmartin]

It's a pretty new code, as it wasn't even in existance in 2011 when this FoI request was made.

 

[RJ]

The list I have gives Code 89 as Unknown card type.

 

[jon0844]

I had it as

Code 89: STOP THIS PERSON NOW! DON'T LET THEM LEAVE. USE ANY FORCE NECESSARY.

 

[Deerfold]

The list I have gives Code 89 as Unknown card type.

So it's then curious as to why the gate opened...

 

[185]

I had it as

Code 89: STOP THIS PERSON NOW! DON'T LET THEM LEAVE. USE ANY FORCE NECESSARY.

Brilliant! How do I apply for a transfer to that company

 

[jon0844]

Brilliant! How do I apply for a transfer to that company

I want in too, especially as code 90 is Shoot on sight. (Something to do with trying to use an off-peak ticket in the peak I think).

Back to reality though; how will people be charged? I presume that the system will pre-authorise a certain amount (the max fare?) and then rely on you tapping out for you to be charged correctly? So if you fail to tap out, it will prove quite expensive - just like Oyster.

I wonder, however, how easy it will be to refund anyone in the way you do with Oyster right now if things go wrong (the gates don't work or similar).

Obviously the testing is going to be trying to sort all that out, but it's clearly not as easy as a flat rate fare on a bus and how you normally make a payment with a credit/debit card.

Also, given the current £20 maximum (and presumably the maximum amount you could pre-authorise?) such a payment method will presumably not be possible on the main railway network as you'd simply not touch out if your fare was going to be higher.

 

[LexyBoy]

I want in too, especially as code 90 is Shoot on sight. (Something to do with trying to use an off-peak ticket in the peak I think).

Travelling whilst Brazilian I think.

 

[class303]

Travelling whilst Brazilian I think.

very poor taste imo.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Accurate though.

 

[redbutton]

My understanding is that they intend to support daily and weekly capping, so presumably they would aggregate all your journeys in a given week and then charge your card accordingly.

 

[bb21]

All figures are hypothetical.

Say weekly cap is set at £50 and daily cap is £10, for example.

What happens in the following scenario?

...
Total cost on Friday: £0
Total cost on Saturday: £0
Total cost on Sunday: £6
Total cost on Monday: £5
Total cost on Tuesday: £10
Total cost on Wednesday: £10
Total cost on Thursday: £10
Total cost on Friday: £10 (charged £9 as weekly cap reached)
Total cost on Saturday: £2 (charged zero as weekly cap reached)
Total cost on Sunday: £10 (How much is charged?)
Total cost on Monday: £0
Total cost on Tuesday: £0
...

Would caps run for fixed periods, eg. Monday - Sunday or Sunday - Saturday?

 

[jon0844]

My understanding is that they intend to support daily and weekly capping, so presumably they would aggregate all your journeys in a given week and then charge your card accordingly.

Interesting.

I wonder how that's going to work when someone with a debit card can't necessarily afford to have £nn held, and if no money is 'held' then it could bounce when payment is taken later on.

So I imagine the card will have to be charged daily no matter what, and TfL will simply take less once a cap is reached in any day/week. Could be messy.

Obviously it will also mean Joe Public, which might own more than one card, remembers to always use the same card to get the cap too!

 

[Be3G]

Yep, weekly capping has been on the cards (oops, unintentional pun) for quite some time now – I believe it was originally considered years ago for use with Oyster cards, but will now be implemented as a contactless feature. My assumption is that it'll be based on a fixed, consistent seven-day period rather than a rolling one (in the same way that a daily cap is fixed from 0430 to 0429).

In terms of how the card is charged, my guess is that TfL might continue to charge each individual journey as a separate transaction to the contactless card, then simply stop charging any more for that day once a cap is reached, yet resuming charging if the validity of that cap is broken, e.g. travelling to an outer zone later in the day. Essentially how an Oyster card already works: you get charged £1.40 for bus journey number one, £1.40 for the second, £1.40 for the third, £0.20 for the fourth, £0 for the fifth, then extra if you decide to jump on a train. Presumably, weekly capping within a fixed seven-day stretch could implement the same system, possibly resulting in no fares being charged at all for the final couple of days of the week.

That second paragraph is just conjecture, though, albeit inspired by the fact that the contactless trial on buses resulted in a separate £1.40 transaction for every journey made, with no capping or even daily aggregation of transactions (e.g. one of £5.60 for four same-day journeys).

 

[island]

Contactless card protocols do not allow for preauthorizations to be taken.

 

[mattdickinson]

Yep, weekly capping has been on the cards (oops, unintentional pun) for quite some time now – I believe it was originally considered years ago for use with Oyster cards, but will now be implemented as a contactless feature. My assumption is that it'll be based on a fixed, consistent seven-day period rather than a rolling one (in the same way that a daily cap is fixed from 0430 to 0429).

In terms of how the card is charged, my guess is that TfL might continue to charge each individual journey as a separate transaction to the contactless card, then simply stop charging any more for that day once a cap is reached, yet resuming charging if the validity of that cap is broken, e.g. travelling to an outer zone later in the day. Essentially how an Oyster card already works: you get charged £1.40 for bus journey number one, £1.40 for the second, £1.40 for the third, £0.20 for the fourth, £0 for the fifth, then extra if you decide to jump on a train. Presumably, weekly capping within a fixed seven-day stretch could implement the same system, possibly resulting in no fares being charged at all for the final couple of days of the week.

That second paragraph is just conjecture, though, albeit inspired by the fact that the contactless trial on buses resulted in a separate £1.40 transaction for every journey made, with no capping or even daily aggregation of transactions (e.g. one of £5.60 for four same-day journeys).

When fully launched, charges will be aggregated and billed daily.

Linked is a TfL briefing note.

On contactless payment card (issuer) statements, the total cost of a day’s journeys will
show as a single charge. Individual fares for journeys or details of journeys made will not be
shown. This is no different to any other retailer. For example, your supermarket bill is
shown on your statement as a single charge and the contents of your trolley are not
itemised on your card statement. An online option will be available for customers to view
their journey history.

 

[Be3G]

An interresting document, thank you!

 

[maniacmartin]

Would caps run for fixed periods, eg. Monday - Sunday or Sunday - Saturday?

According to the briefing note that mattdickson linked to:

Weekly capping will always be calculated from Monday to Sunday; unlike 7 Day
Travelcards it cannot start mid week.

 

[bb21]

According to the briefing note that mattdickson linked to:

So not very useful for many people. :roll:

 

[Be3G]

I don't see why its usefulness is reduced particularly. Presumably anyone who's likely to hit a weekly cap would be travelling in the region of four or five days a week, which in turn suggests that they'd be a pretty regular traveller. (How many people except for tourists don't use London's public transport at all then have a sudden burst of activity for a week?) And if they travel regularly, a cap will still save them money no matter how their days are arranged – e.g. if someone travels on Mon, Wed, Fri and Sat., any permutation of seven days will cover all four days of travel, so it might as well be simplified as Monday to Sunday and therefore make things much easier to calculate!

The only people who'll lose out by not having a rolling/moving weekly cap will be people who rarely reach the weekly cap amount, and perhaps do so infrequently and only fleetingly across the cap's end ‘divide’ e.g. by travelling Thurs, Fri, Sat, Mon and Tues with nothing before or after for a while. But across the expanse of time such users wouldn't stand to gain much of a saving from the weekly cap anyway by virtue of their infrequent-ish travel.

 

[bb21]

Contractors, for example?

Capping in this way by itself is not an issue, but if paper tickets are going to be removed in the long run, then they better make sure that people who currently buy weeklies starting midweek are not unfairly penalised. Not everyone buys them every week and travel patterns can change. If I have a long weekend then I may well buy one next week starting from the first day when I am back at work.