Connexions Buses (Harrogate Coach Travel)

[YorkRailFan]

Seen similar comments about the X52.It pot luck with them whether its a relatively new bus, something around mid life which ought to have been refurbished but hasn't or something that really belonged at Barnsley some months back.

The X52 is more likely to get something more modern though. It has had a Citaro demonstrator last month, along with Evoras and E400 MMC. The only 412 services to get something more modern are the 06:45 into York and the 18:35 out of York as they're interworked with the Super13.

I think this is three-fold: road condition, driver thrashing and the God-awful route it takes.

I think its also the timetable, it requires quite a bit of foot down to get to York for a short turnaround and then gets stuck in traffic. It seems like quite an unforgiving timetable, leave Wetherby 3 minutes late and you'll be 15 late by the time you've got to York.

 

[Delenn]

The X52 is more likely to get something more mI think its also the timetable, it requires quite a bit of foot down to get to York for a short turnaround and then gets stuck in traffic. It seems like quite an unforgiving timetable, leave Wetherby 3 minutes late and you'll be 15 late by the time you've got to York.

A standard Connexions timetable then. Always viciously optimistic.

 

[YorkRailFan]

A standard Connexions timetable then. Always viciously optimistic.

They are changing the timetable from 7th September, and are giving up on serving York Station on eastbound journeys with the exception of the first bus into York of the day.

New timetables should be available shortly for the 412.

Going in to York,. the bus will not pass the rail station, but you can get off at Blossom Street Everyman cinema for this. Returning from York toward Wetherby, the bus will stop at the rail station as normal. This is to alleviate the delays caused by continual road closures in the City Centre.

Times through the villages have changed, but times from Wetherby and York remain the same

412 Service changes from 7th September - Connexions

www.connexionsbuses.com

Under the new timetable, buses will have three minutes turn around at Piccadilly (currently 0 minutes) but the journey time into York is shortened by 3 minutes - presuambly from not serving York Station - so we'll see if it makes any difference.

 

[stevieinselby]

They are changing the timetable from 7th September, and are giving up on serving York Station on eastbound journeys with the exception of the first bus into York of the day.

412 Service changes from 7th September - Connexions

www.connexionsbuses.com

Under the new timetable, buses will have three minutes turn around at Piccadilly (currently 0 minutes) but the journey time into York is shortened by 3 minutes - presuambly from not serving York Station - so we'll see if it makes any difference.

I've also spotted that their current PDF timetable doesn't match the times on bustimes and on their own Passenger website for some of the intermediate stops, although times at Wetherby and York do match.
The times on the PDF are the more realistic of the two but are still optimistic at some of the earlier timing points, some of the intermediate times on bustimes/Passenger would be unachievable by car let alone by bus, and strike me as more likely a data entry error rather than bad scheduling.

Given that the bus has a 30 minute layover in Wetherby between every round trip, it seems a bit unnecessary to hustle along and run a loop through York so missing out the station on inbound journeys with minimal recovery time there, when they could take 5 or 10 minutes out of the layover time at Wetherby instead.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Given that the bus has a 30 minute layover in Wetherby between every round trip, it seems a bit unnecessary to hustle along and run a loop through York so missing out the station on inbound journeys with minimal recovery time there, when they could take 5 or 10 minutes out of the layover time at Wetherby instead.

All I can see this loop do is cause confusion. Congestion is still bad through the station on westbound journeys so any time saved going into York will be lost leaving York for Wetherby. I think this is going to cause more problems than it solves, and congestion heading over Skeldergate Bridge is also bad. Cutting out the station on eastbound journeys risks losing and angering the few people who still use the service.

 

[Andyh82]

They will know how many of their passengers currently alight at the railway station

 

[YorkRailFan]

They will know how many of their passengers currently alight at the railway station

York Station and Rougier Street are bigger destinations than Nunnery Lane and Price's Lane undeniably. Unless more people are boarding at those stops towards Wetherby than leaving towards York, it seems like they're shooting themselves in the foot when they could reduce turnaround time in Wetherby.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

I suppose for anyone unwilling/unable to walk from Blossom Street there is the option to stay on the bus for the loop through Piccadilly and get off at the station as the bus heads back to Wetherby.
But as the publicity says it is a short walk from Blossom Street to the station.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I suppose for anyone unwilling/unable to walk from Blossom Street there is the option to stay on the bus for the loop through Piccadilly and get off at the station as the bus heads back to Wetherby.
But as the publicity says it is a short walk from Blossom Street to the station.

It is a short walk, but not great if you're carrying luggage. City of York Council provides a free shuttle bus (operated by York Pullman) between Blossom Street and the Station whenever Queen Street is closed and buses have to divert away from the station for this exact reason.

I just don't think this change will improve reliability. Any time made up skipping the station is lost coming back through the station on the westbound journey, its just reorganising the deck chairs. The last timetable change in 2025 didn't improve things either.

 

[LucyP]

The 412 is a lightly used, rural bus route, serving mainly old people in the villages between Wetherby and York. It is fully funded by the Council. Connexions would never run it commercially and have said they would withdraw it several times in the past when the Council ended funding, which so far has always led to the Council reinstating funding.

How many passengers were on the service that you used?

They are never going to put a new bus on the route. They just use double-deckers used on school services, which is why there is no service from Wetherby between 12:40 until the 16:40. The view of the countryside and villages from the top deck is very pretty. If the Council ran the service then it would be a minibus, as used on the 8 route between Harrogate and Wetherby, via Knaresborough.

The 412 operates 5 services per day in each direction. It is not much use for commuting as the first service from York does not arrive in Wetherby until 10:10. From Wetherby, there is a service that arrives into York at 7:25, which is very early for most commuters. The next service arrives at 9:25, which is generally too late. The last bus to Wetherby leaves York at 17:25 as the final service of the day only goes as far as the depot in Tockwith.

 

[stevieinselby]

I just don't think this change will improve reliability. Any time made up skipping the station is lost coming back through the station on the westbound journey, its just reorganising the deck chairs. The last timetable change in 2025 didn't improve things either.

At the moment, Google Maps reckons driving from Blossom Street to Piccadilly is 5 minutes quicker going via Nunnery Lane than via the Station, so they're saving at least 5 minutes on a round trip, so that's got to help. Whether it's enough is another question, whether it's the best way of achieving it is another question, but it will definitely improve things over the current situation.

 

[YorkRailFan]

At the moment, Google Maps reckons driving from Blossom Street to Piccadilly is 5 minutes quicker going via Nunnery Lane than via the Station, so they're saving at least 5 minutes on a round trip, so that's got to help. Whether it's enough is another question, whether it's the best way of achieving it is another question, but it will definitely improve things over the current situation.

Comparing the new timetable to the old timetable, they're saving 3 minutes which is then used as turnaround time at Piccadilly. Which is why the publicity says this:

Times through the villages have changed, but times from Wetherby and York remain the same

412 Service changes from 7th September - Connexions

www.connexionsbuses.com

(My bolding)
So on a round trip between York & Wetherby, no time is saved whatsoever as the times from York to Wetherby remain the same and the 3 minutes saved by this loop is spent at Piccadilly.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Comparing the new timetable to the old timetable, they're saving 3 minutes which is then used as turnaround time at Piccadilly. Which is why the publicity says this:

412 Service changes from 7th September - Connexions

www.connexionsbuses.com

(My bolding)
So on a round trip between York & Wetherby, no time is saved whatsoever as the times from York to Wetherby remain the same and the 3 minutes saved by this loop is spent at Piccadilly.

Yes but it is additional recovery time which, as @stevieinselby, might be a better way of ensuring reliability.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yes but it is additional recovery time which, as @stevieinselby, might be a better way of ensuring reliability.

But it isn't. The 3 minutes recovery time is 3 minutes currently as journey time. Take this as an example:
Currently, a bus leaves Wetherby at 08:40 and arrives into Piccadilly at 09:25. It leaves Piccadilly for Wetherby at 09:25. The new timetable has the same bus leave Wetherby at 08:40 for York and arrives into Piccadilly (avoiding the station) at 09:22. It then leaves Piccadilly at 09:25 via the Station for Wetherby.
There isn't any extra time added in, the bus still leaves Piccadilly at the same time but has 3 minutes Stand time that would otherwise be travel time. If you look at tracking on Bustimes over weeks and weeks, the bus usually arrives from Wetherby late to Blossom Street, before the new route commences. I very much doubt reliability is going to improve whatsoever.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There isn't any extra time added in, the bus still leaves Piccadilly at the same time but has 3 minutes Stand time that would otherwise be travel time.

That's the point. It can arrive 3 minutes late at Piccadilly and still depart on time.

Whether the change will make a blind bit of difference is a different matter.

 

[YorkRailFan]

That's the point. It can arrive 3 minutes late at Piccadilly and still depart on time.

Whether the change will make a blind bit of difference is a different matter.

Whilst having 3 minutes less to do so on what remains an incredibly optimistic timetable. Yes the route will be shortened slightly, but it will take longer than the timetabled 42 minutes. As well as that, there are no changes to the westbound journeys, which will run via the Station, so any time gained from avoiding the station on the eastbound journey is lost as no additional time is given.

The bus is usually 10 minutes late before it arrives at Blossom Street from Wetherby anyway. Without changing running times through the villages to a more realistic timetable or having proper turnaround time in York, it will remain unreliable.

 

[Teapot42]

I've got to say, this feels like the issues Hulleys faced. Optimistic timetables were needed to try and make services work without adding more resource, which in turn would make them unviable.

I wonder if the suggestion of moving the recovery time to Wetherby is not viable as it would impact legally required breaks?

 

[YorkRailFan]

I've got to say, this feels like the issues Hulleys faced. Optimistic timetables were needed to try and make services work without adding more resource, which in turn would make them unviable.

I wonder if the suggestion of moving the recovery time to Wetherby is not viable as it would impact legally required breaks?

The bus on the 412 gets a half-hour break between the 1st & 2nd and 2nd & 3rd return trips in Wetherby. This is followed by a 2.5 hour break in Wetherby in between the 3rd & 4th return trips. The 2.5 hour break might be used to operate a school service, which is likely knowing Connexions.

If you use Google Maps to estimate journey time, the eastbound trip will take 5 minutes longer than the car under the new timetable, and the westbound trip will be the same as a car!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The bus on the 412 gets a half-hour break between the 1st & 2nd and 2nd & 3rd return trips in Wetherby. This is followed by a 2.5 hour break in Wetherby in between the 3rd & 4th return trips. The 2.5 hour break might be used to operate a school service, which is likely knowing Connexions.

I would guess it would be off one of the Boston Spa Academy runs in the morning (arr at school at 0820) and does it again in the pm after another break

 

[YorkRailFan]

I would guess it would be off one of the Boston Spa Academy runs in the morning (arr at school at 0820) and does it again in the pm after another break

Yes I would too, tracking from July often showed the 13:25 412 from York to Wetherby carrying on past Wetherby to Boston Spa Academy. Sometimes the 08:40 from Wetherby to York would start tracking at Boston Spa Academy as well.

 

[stevieinselby]

Comparing the new timetable to the old timetable, they're saving 3 minutes which is then used as turnaround time at Piccadilly. Which is why the publicity says this:

412 Service changes from 7th September - Connexions

www.connexionsbuses.com

(My bolding)
So on a round trip between York & Wetherby, no time is saved whatsoever as the times from York to Wetherby remain the same and the 3 minutes saved by this loop is spent at Piccadilly.

Yes, but what that means is that instead of importing the inevitable delay on the inbound service and leaving Piccadilly 5–10 minutes down, they've built in since recovery time and so have now got a fighting chance of at least starting the return to Wetherby on time.

If you use Google Maps to estimate journey time, the eastbound trip will take 5 minutes longer than the car under the new timetable, and the westbound trip will be the same as a car!

Does the driving route use Coppergate or does it start off with a big circuitous diversion to get from Piccadilly to Rougier Street?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yes, but what that means is that instead of importing the inevitable delay on the inbound service and leaving Piccadilly 5–10 minutes down, they've built in since recovery time and so have now got a fighting chance of at least starting the return to Wetherby on time

If you look at tracking before the Rougier Street closure recently, buses were tracking 10+ minutes late at Blossom Street arriving from Wetherby. 3 minutes is nowhere near enough and creating this loop is only going to cause confusion.

Does the driving route use Coppergate or does it start off with a big circuitous diversion to get from Piccadilly to Rougier Street?

43 minutes in the car via Coppergate VS 45 minutes on the bus from York to Wetherby. 37 minutes in the car from Wetherby to York (avoiding station) VS 42 minutes on the bus (avoiding station).

 

[Teapot42]

The bus on the 412 gets a half-hour break between the 1st & 2nd and 2nd & 3rd return trips in Wetherby. This is followed by a 2.5 hour break in Wetherby in between the 3rd & 4th return trips. The 2.5 hour break might be used to operate a school service, which is likely knowing Connexions.

This possibly answers the question. Assuming Google is correct, you can drive 5h30 before you get a 30 minute break. From the bus leaving Wetherby at 8:40 to arriving back at 14:10 is exactly 5h30. Adding time in York would push the driver past 5h30. There seems to be another option of at least 45 minutes without driving in the first 8h30, not sure if this would be based on tacho hours so delays could make that hard to achieve.

 

[YorkRailFan]

This possibly answers the question. Assuming Google is correct, you can drive 5h30 before you get a 30 minute break. From the bus leaving Wetherby at 8:40 to arriving back at 14:10 is exactly 5h30. Adding time in York would push the driver past 5h30. There seems to be another option of at least 45 minutes without driving in the first 8h30, not sure if this would be based on tacho hours so delays could make that hard to achieve.

There must be a driver change throughout the day. It seems far more likely that its a school service before 08:40 and then during the 2.5 hour break in the afternoon before the last return journey. The driver gets a half hour break from 10:10 to 10:40 and from 12:10 to 12:40 anyway.

 

[Andyh82]

The 412 does interwork with Boston Spa schools. I can’t remember which one.

It’s likely that it’s the same driver all day. All their Harrogate/Otley/Wetherby services have lunch breaks built in now.

For a break to count as a break it has to be at least half an hour which is why the timetable is scheduled like it is

 

[SCH117X]

If the Council ran the service then it would be a minibus, as used on the 8 route between Harrogate and Wetherby, via Knaresborough.

The 8 is tendered like the 412 and currently operated by 21 Transport not the Council

 

[Teapot42]

The driver gets a half hour break from 10:10 to 10:40 and from 12:10 to 12:40 anyway.

That's my point - increasing the time at York means less than half an hour at Wetherby so it can't count as a break.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The 412 is a lightly used, rural bus route, serving mainly old people in the villages between Wetherby and York. It is fully funded by the Council. Connexions would never run it commercially and have said they would withdraw it several times in the past when the Council ended funding, which so far has always led to the Council reinstating funding

I believe its funded in part, not fully, by North Yorkshire Council and City of York Council.

They are never going to put a new bus on the route. They just use double-deckers used on school services, which is why there is no service from Wetherby between 12:40 until the 16:40. The view of the countryside and villages from the top deck is very pretty. If the Council ran the service then it would be a minibus, as used on the 8 route between Harrogate and Wetherby, via Knaresborough.

North Yorkshire Council provides a commuter return journey from York to Wetherby using a minibus, also numbered as 412. It also provides the only service into the villages of Knapton & Bickerton, as the Connexions service just stops on the main road.

That's my point - increasing the time at York means less than half an hour at Wetherby so it can't count as a break.

Which means that they're not pushing drivers up to the 5h30 limit, as they're getting a half-hour break before they reach that limit.

The 412 does interwork with Boston Spa schools. I can’t remember which one.

It’s likely that it’s the same driver all day. All their Harrogate/Otley/Wetherby services have lunch breaks built in now.

For a break to count as a break it has to be at least half an hour which is why the timetable is scheduled like it is

The timetable just needs retiming throughout as its just unrealistic. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen with this operational setup, so we just get changes like this and the one in 2025, which do nothing to improve reliability.

The 412 operates 5 services per day in each direction. It is not much use for commuting as the first service from York does not arrive in Wetherby until 10:10. From Wetherby, there is a service that arrives into York at 7:25, which is very early for most commuters. The next service arrives at 9:25, which is generally too late. The last bus to Wetherby leaves York at 17:25 as the final service of the day only goes as far as the depot in Tockwith.

The first and last 412 of the day are interworked with the Super13, they would otherwise run empty to/from Tockwith.

 

[Teapot42]

Which means that they're not pushing drivers up to the 5h30 limit, as they're getting a half-hour break before they reach that limit.

Why is this so difficult? Extend the layover in York means that (a) they won't be getting that half hour break, and (b) the duty time would then exceed 5h30. You'd also need to consider how the school services impact the length of the duty. The morning one would likely also count towards the 5h30, but there might be enough of a break before the afternoon one.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Why is this so difficult? Extend the layover in York means that (a) they won't be getting that half hour break, and (b) the duty time would then exceed 5h30. You'd also need to consider how the school services impact the length of the duty. The morning one would likely also count towards the 5h30, but there might be enough of a break before the afternoon one.

This is my point though. The duty length starts before the 08:40 with a school service and then has 3 return trips to York with 2 half hour breaks, followed by a 2.5 hour break which is used for a school service. The duty is longer than 5h30 so they need those 2 half-hour breaks in between before the 2.5 hour break.