markymark2000
On Moderation
Great news. Multi operator tickets should all be available on apps at a minimum, let's get rid of the smartcard nonsense.
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Connexions Buses (Harrogate Coach Travel)
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Ballyheigue
Member
Why? Some people prefer the security of a smart card, you don't need to risk your phone being stolen when you get it out for a start. Why should people use data for the app, battery power for the app, yet another bloody app on my phone and so on. Then you've got those who don't actually own a smart phone, I'm one of them so a smart card will do for me.
Stan Drews
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Jun 2013
- Messages
- 2,139
The cost of providing smart cards and the behind the scenes tech required is relatively expensive. Some operators have stopped offering smart card ticketing as the annual revenue they generated was less than the annual cost of providing them!
markymark2000
On Moderation
Paper onboard, or app tickets are the way forward in my opinion. Smartcards are faffy to top up in most cases and as proven with various areas, smartcards are being cut back on because of low usage.
In York, you need to find a Kiosk to buy a card for £2 (so there is now a cost to unlock a discount ticket) or wait for the council to post a card out. Then you have to visit a kiosk or P&R site every time you want to top up (so takes a lot more pre planning and unless you top up before your current ticket ends, means for many you end up making a special journey or paying separately for a bus ticket, just to top up). You don't know what is left on the ticket unless you visit a kiosk.
What part of that is attractive for most people? And that's before you look at what Stan has said above with the costs for operators.
Smartcards 'worked' (I say that loosely. I don't think they ever worked in the interests of passengers, but they physically worked) back in the day because there wasn't anything better. Now we have QR codes which can work across multiple operators. The data that was once stored on a smartcard, can now be stored in the the QR code, and who cares how that code is displayed (paper ticket or on apps). QR codes are much better. Apps and paper tickets are also available much more easily and stop this nonsense trend that is going on with locking discounts behind faffy to acquire and top up smartcards.
Some people like smartcards because they aren't going to run out of power.
Some apps allow you to check what's on a card and load new tickets.
citybus2500
Member
And if your wallet is stolen, which contains your smart card?
And some people don't want to be carrying around 27 smart cards because one doesn't cover everywhere.
I think that's the fundamental point, this country has done such a bad job of bringing ticketing technology in to the 20th century. Smartcards work remarkably well in case where there are one or two that cover the whole country, such as Taiwan (Easycard) or Japan (Icoca / Suica). It's much more worthwhile investing in the technology to top them up as there is more demand, and you don't need to worry if it's valid.
There really should have been an effort to expand Oyster country-wide, but I think we've got to the point where introducing a new Smartcard system is possibly too late as Smartphone usage has become so widespread that takeup wouldn't justify the cost.
It would, of course, help some of the demographics who are large public transport users, such as the elderly and those on lower wages, but it would have to be done as a state effort rather than commercial if one was to happen now.
The Oyster card could not be expanded, because its old technology did not have the capability.
The ENSTC system uses ITSO technology and replaces smart cards for that group.
Young people and their parents use smartphones. The Smart cards simply stopped being used by most.
Tap on Tap off with Bank cards and caping works now in many areas too.
What is the limitation? I believe both Oyster and Easycard are based on MiFare, and Easycard was rolled out across Taiwan nearly universally, including being accepted in many corner shops as a means of payment. Easycard slightly pre-dates Oyster so it's not as if the state of the art would have changed much between them. (Work started on Oyster card 2 years before EasyCard, but introduction was a year later - I'll refrain from comment...)
Is there any payment mechanism though? For cases where the pass isn't valid, or where there is a nominal fare surely having payment integrated with something to show entitlement would be valuable?
Many young people don't get smartphones until around senior school age. Also, many areas have cards which show entitlement to reduced fares, and many operators sell (for want of a better term) scholar passes. Being able to hold all this on one card would save a lot of hassle.
There are security implications with using bank cards (and mobiles) for tap-on, ranging from fumbling and dropping it, to having it swiped out of your hand. Smartcards are lower value so less risk if one is lost, and especially in the case of a phone getting things cancelled once it has been stolen can be difficult.
Ballyheigue
Member
Fingers get broken if I find them in my pocket trying to steal lol, I don't own a wallet and my bank cards as well as my bus pass smart card are kept lose in my pocket, I've never lost them in years although to be fair I do have my hands in my pockets a lot.
Trainman40083
Established Member
I've seen people have their contactless bank cards rejected, despite ample funds. I guess the machine is wanting a pin. A couple got off the bus to successfully use an ATM, whilst the bus departed.
markymark2000
On Moderation
Hence why Shuttle ID has announced 'brickets' which are QR codes which work on 'brick' phones. It makes the point well that it's just a QR code, it doesn't matter what it's shown on. Piece of paper, a plastic ID card with no smart functionality, or even a smartphone. The code remains the same.
Bus ticket machines don't require pin numbers as they work in a 'transit mode' thing which doesn't require such verification.
Trainman40083
Established Member
Yet contactless cards get rejected. How odd.
One reason is if it's the first time they've been used as they often need a use with PIN to activate them.
My sister in law prefers a card as she worries about losing power on her phone.
Fortunately she's not had her card stolen but she has had a phone stop working.
She rarely leaves the county where her smartcard is valid.
Dwarfer1979
Member
In our experience this is due to a previous transaction not going through due to insufficient funds so the system blocks the card until outstanding payments are paid, nothing to do with PINs. The bank will try a couple of times initially to get payment but then it will sit there as an outstanding payment with occasional attempts but if you present a blocked card the system will effectively immediately try again (at least as soon as the machine reports an attempted usage back to the back office), we regularly get people querying a payment taken when their card was refused and 99% of the time we can see is that this is due to a failed payment last time they travelled. You may be surprised at how many passengers don't have enough money in their accounts to even pay £3 bus fares sometimes.
They may have funds now, they may not have had so last time it was used or something else may have happened that meant that the payment was not received last time they travelled.
Oyster & MiFare is old technology so most modern machines can't read them as default and require special modification to do so if at all. Smartcards should be ITSO compliant which is a later standard and designed to be standardised enough for everyone to be able to read them. The problem is in fact that they are not state of the art, they are too old to be read by modern machines, it is like if you have a really old smartphone and there being certain apps that you cannot download as they cannot work on older operating systems. My employers used to have MiFare based smartcards but we removed them when we replaced our machines to one capable of taking Contactless payments, the new machines couldn't read MiFare cards and the cost of upgrading the range to ITSO compliance was prohibitive (less the cost of replacing all the cards as registering and setting up the new product as an ITSO compliant product as there are certain standards to being ITSO due to the nature of this being a national standard system) particularly due to the relatively low volume of sales for a medium sized operators own products. Those sort of costs can only really be born by big groups or councils with big volume usage.
Ah, I think we were talking at crossed purposes. I wasn't advocating rolling Oyster out nation-wide now, I was saying it should have happened 15-20 years ago, once it proved successful in London.
That said, I'm rather surprised reading both is such an issue, and can only assume the ticket machine manufacturers have made certain decisions to prevent it. I've been looking at adding NFC to a product I'm designing and the vast majority of readers can support MiFare. As both are based on IEC 14443 it should be technically possible to read both card types with the same hardware. Maybe they made other hardware choices that prevent scanning for and processing the two options too slow?
OT here, but I'd imagine newer Oyster gates are able to process both, and at some point all will be upgraded so the older Oyster cards can be phased out over time.
Oyster cards can only handle a fixed number of zones.
They're nearly at that limit.
ITSO was defined around a year later.
We’re getting off-topic here, stick to Connexions related matters please
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Connexions has acquired a Scania N250UD ADL E400MMC with registration EU23 BZL formerly at Stephensons of Essex, this example is the last example of its type to be delivered to the UK, for use on North Yorkshire services and to be repainted in the future.
If anyone is at a loose end and needs some amusement, look out the post about this on Facebook and read the comments.
Out of interest, how many non-integral E400MMCs went to independent operators? The wikipedia entry only mentions groups or the likes of Reading / Nottingham for the gas-powered version. I'd not actually realised they did a non-integral version to be honest, thought they'd stopped after the 'classic' E400.
For those of not on Facebook, what are the comments about?
I think the biggest order for the Scania /E400 post the classic version was for First's Xcel in Norfolk which were City bodied. There were also the briefly available Volvo chassis version.
Steve440
Member
Stagecoach had 110 Scania/ADL E400 mmc (15261-15370)
Let's just say the loss of services to franchising gets compared to a policy enacted in South Africa in the recent past.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Indeed, and the person who said it was "interesting" (and it wasn't Craig Temple). I only had a look as I was intrigued - there was that codswallop, plus a load of stuff from one poster so naive it was terrible. Very funny.
Ah, thanks
YorkRailFan
Established Member
YorkRailFan
Established Member
YorkRailFan
Established Member
E400MMC EU23 BZL has received Connexions branding.
derbybusdepot
Member
- Joined
- 17 Dec 2015
- Messages
- 346
Even on a local level, in Derbyshire we have two multi operator smart cards. Spectrum valid in buses in Derby city, and Wayfarer valid on buses within while county and beyond.
Bizarrely a weekly wayfarer is cheaper than a weekly spectrum ticket!
Alot of people faff about using apps and QR codes on their phone, and slow down boarding.
Surely simplest idea would just to be to use an existing bank card linked to an account.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Omnicity YP58 UGC (former Metrobus) has been re-registered as URH 806 and repainted to Connexions livery.