Also, providing you turn up in good time for your initial service, if the train company delays you, then you are entitled to complete the journey on the next available appropriate services.
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Connecting services on Advance
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Does anyone know if this niternal easement still applies for Gat Exp?
GTR do have such an easement, yes
The easement is no longer on the iKB, so I assume it no longer applies.
One might imagine this may be a policy that disappeared with GBR...
Anyone want to FOI them?
If this is intentional, then it's strong evidence that GBR is about reducing rights for passengers, among various other things.
I am already writing
rhizomergence
Member
I was denied boarding at stevenage for an earlier connecting GTR train to Cambridge (on an LNER-priced advance from the North). The GTR leg did show up on my paper ticket.
Must have to do with the introduction of advances on those routes recently right
Must have to do with the introduction of advances on those routes recently right
How were you denied boarding, given you wouldn't normally go through the barriers?
rhizomergence
Member
Yeah sorry that was unclear, I (unaware of the policy being discussed) asked a Great Northern staff member who was waiting on the platform and telling passengers about delays (mostly to LNER trains on that day). He told me I needed to wait for the booked Great Northern train before boarding the earlier train I was trying to get on. I only asked because the earlier one (a Thameslink) was running +4 late and my booked one was running +7 late.
I did start the conversation with “my LNER got in early” and showed him the ticket so it should have been clear enough that I wasn’t starting at Stevenage
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I may be misremembering but I'm about 80% sure that easement only applied where you were booked on a reservable GTR service as a connection between Stevenage and Kings Cross. It wasn't a carte blanche across the entire network.
Obviously if the GTR service isn't reservable, you can get whatever one suits you.
Obviously if the GTR service isn't reservable, you can get whatever one suits you.
That was for LNER's easement, which is oddly still on the iKB even after they changed to PU/SD at Stevenage.
The GTR applied across the board to all advances retailed where they were considered as the "connecting TOC".
I stand corrected!
It was a very sensible policy from GTR. Consider someone doing a long distance journey like Exeter to Stevenage, where GTR is the connecting service from London to Stevenage.
If the train from Exeter to Paddington arrives on time, it is highly likely that a passenger will arrive at St Pancras (or Farringdon if routed that way) early enough to catch an earlier connecting train, as the connection time between Paddington and St Pancras is generous.
Is it really the intention of the industry to keep people hanging around on them platforms at St Pancras or Farringdon until the booked train? The platforms at those stations are busy enough as they are, without people hanging around for booked trains. Wouldn’t the right thing be to allow passengers to travel on the next available service? GTR don’t even do proper seat reservations.
In the other direction, someone wanting to take an earlier connecting train from Stevenage to London should be allowed, the main thing is booked service they should be on is train between Paddington and Exeter.
To be clear, I’m not arguing for reduced interchange times, many think they’re already too tight.
If the train from Exeter to Paddington arrives on time, it is highly likely that a passenger will arrive at St Pancras (or Farringdon if routed that way) early enough to catch an earlier connecting train, as the connection time between Paddington and St Pancras is generous.
Is it really the intention of the industry to keep people hanging around on them platforms at St Pancras or Farringdon until the booked train? The platforms at those stations are busy enough as they are, without people hanging around for booked trains. Wouldn’t the right thing be to allow passengers to travel on the next available service? GTR don’t even do proper seat reservations.
In the other direction, someone wanting to take an earlier connecting train from Stevenage to London should be allowed, the main thing is booked service they should be on is train between Paddington and Exeter.
To be clear, I’m not arguing for reduced interchange times, many think they’re already too tight.
Well this is the exact point I made in my FOI to them. It's such a bizarre thing to change.
It will be interesting to see what they come back with.
redreni
Established Member
Nothing would surprise me.
All part of the determination not to allow rail travel to be competitive with driving, I guess. Running early? Looking forward to getting there a bit early as a result? Oh no, you don't!
And the challenge to retailers (particularly those that like to provide a highly customisable search function) is can they work out how to let the customer specify they're happy to accept inflexible tickets on the main intercity leg, but that they want flexible tickets after they've reached a certain interchange point? (usually London in the case of people connecting onto GTR, but the same point holds for any journey where faster, unofficial connections on the final local leg(s) is/are likely to be possible, or where disruption may mean the passenger will find their booked local train isn't the first one to come along).
"TOC & Connections" Advances appear, very often, to be priced the same as the "TOC only" fare not including the connecting leg plus an arbitrary add-on - at a fixed amount for a cluster of stations. In many cases , splitting between an Advance and a flexible ticket for the local leg will be a bit more expensive, but in the context of the overall journey cost, not significantly so. But this is the kind of split one has to work out manually - including connection times - at present.
The reality is that people will just get on the first one that comes. I did before I knew about the GTR easement, the chance of a ticket check on Thameslink is negligible.
I am (sometimes). If your inbound service is late and as a result you miss your connection you can already get a later train (using a publicly available condition of travel rather than a secret policy).
You usually have to get though the barriers first. I've had an advanced Thameslink ticket through to St Pancras and then on via Euston checked in detail at St Albans barriers and told there that my train isn't the next one, albeit let through. Such tickets normally go through the barriers at St Pancras.
You do indeed, and GTR do block Advance tickets to do the checks you reference there. Whether or not the checks happen is another thing. I have never been asked for the second part of a 2-part Advance ticket myself. A lot of changes onto Thameslink will happen through Farringdon now with the Lizzie.
I can't see them refusing to let someone out arriving at a station after a long-distance journey. Departing might be another matter. But there is a possibility of issues, if the GTR easement no longer exists.
No barriers at Farringdon, using my example from above.
From GTR's FOI response:
The main takeaway is that "The easement has always operated as an informal arrangement to assist customers and remains in place."
I'm not sure I'd want to rely on that, given there's now no accessible record of the easement, and that an FOI response is only accurate insofar as the date it was issued.
Unless, of course, someone wants to submit an FOI monthly to ask if it still applies each time!
Good to hear it remains in place.
The DfT seems to take the view that everything is too complex with the exception of (a) tickets valid on any train, or (b) tickets valid on one specific itinerary only, and anything else is far too complicated for passengers, and if any passenger is concerned about the validity of their ticket, it's best the passenger doesn't get formally told because it would be confusing for the passenger to get an actual answer. Or something like that!
The DfT seems to take the view that everything is too complex with the exception of (a) tickets valid on any train, or (b) tickets valid on one specific itinerary only, and anything else is far too complicated for passengers, and if any passenger is concerned about the validity of their ticket, it's best the passenger doesn't get formally told because it would be confusing for the passenger to get an actual answer. Or something like that!
Which mimics customer behaviour. How many people connecting to Thameslink at Farringdon wait for a booked train? They just jump on the next one.
Making Thameslink reservable is about preventing Advance tickets for other operators being sold on already busy trains, from their point of view there's no point making 50p from an "&connections" Advance when the train is full and standing with people on Anytimes.
Haywain
Veteran Member
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Clearly not the case as, if it was, there would be no point in having fares set with a route of 'AP Thameslink only'.
gray1404
Established Member
So provided the Advance ticket is booked for travel on at least 1 non GTR Toc then that easement still applies. Great.
I would be clearer and say as long as the advance is priced by someone that isn't GTR, it applies.
A ticket routed "GN TLINK & CON" doesn't magically let you on any GTR service just because of the connecting TOC
gray1404
Established Member
I would be clearer and say as long as the advance is priced by someone that isn't GTR, it applies.
A ticket routed "GN TLINK & CON" doesn't magically let you on any GTR service just because of the connecting TOC
Ah yes I see what you mean. So look on BR fares to see who it's managed by.
Haywain
Veteran Member
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In most cases the route of the ticket will tell you what you need to know.
Also, isn’t the rear first class section declassified?