Connecting services on Advance

[phoenix1589]

With an Advance single New Eltham to Leeds, the itinerary provided is New Eltham to London Bridge, London Bridge to St Pancras, Kings X to Leeds.

Only the Thameslink LBG-STP and LNER KGX-LDS services are listed on the mandatory reservations coupon. The Southeastern portion is not listed on the paper ticket (but does in the email itinerary when booked).

I think I read, but can't find, that specific train only restrictions on the Thameslink core as part of a cross London transfer are not enforced.

Can anyone confirm it's acceptable to travel slightly earlier (15-30 minutes) on the Southeastern and Thameslink services to have slightly more time at Kings Cross/St Pancras station before the booked LNER service?

 

[tram21]

With an Advance single New Eltham to Leeds, the itinerary provided is New Eltham to London Bridge, London Bridge to St Pancras, Kings X to Leeds.

Only the Thameslink LBG-STP and LNER KGX-LDS services are listed on the mandatory reservations coupon. The Southeastern portion is not listed on the paper ticket (but does in the email itinerary when booked).

I think I read, but can't find, that specific train only restrictions on the Thameslink core as part of a cross London transfer are not enforced.

Can anyone confirm it's acceptable to travel slightly earlier (15-30 minutes) on the Southeastern and Thameslink services to have slightly more time at Kings Cross/St Pancras station before the booked LNER service?

If its a paper ticket there's no way they can enforce it if its not written on, so you'll definitely be fine on the Southeastern.

Thameslink also have a rule that they don't enforce (+ connections) tickets so you'll be fine on them too.

 

[phoenix1589]

Thameslink also have a rule that they don't enforce (+ connections) tickets so you'll be fine on them too.

Thanks.

Is this rule written down somewhere that a regular passenger can see.

 

[jfollows]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trainsplit-mandatory-reservations.295112/post-7559541

• Where a passenger has a through Advance Ticket and reservations for a journey which involves using a Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Southern and / or Thameslink train, as a connection to or from a different operator’s train service.

For example, Advance Tickets routed "AP SLOUGH", “AWC &CONNECTIONS” or "LNER & CONNECTNS".

They can use any Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Southern or Thameslink train to complete their journey even if they have a reservation for a particular Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Southern and / or Thameslink train.

Doesn’t say “Southeastern” I know.

 

[yorkie]

Can anyone confirm it's acceptable to travel slightly earlier (15-30 minutes) on the Southeastern and Thameslink services to have slightly more time at Kings Cross/St Pancras station before the booked LNER service?

For future reference, you can specify additional time under advanced options on the forum's ticketing site.

 

[phoenix1589]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trainsplit-mandatory-reservations.295112/post-7559541

Thanks!

For future reference, you can specify additional time under advanced options on the forum's ticketing site.

Trying to guide someone not very technology savvy, remotely, to buy the ticket. One of the apps where they already had an account was easier.

 

[JBuchananGB]

My journey choice from London Bridge to Kings Cross would be the LUL Northern Line. What would be the benefit of using National Rail?

 

[yorkie]

My journey choice from London Bridge to Kings Cross would be the LUL Northern Line. What would be the benefit of using National Rail?

Air conditioning, not so noisy environment, more accessible.

Potentially less walking; depends on where exactly at each end you are coming from / going to.

 

[MicroLithium]

My journey choice from London Bridge to Kings Cross would be the LUL Northern Line. What would be the benefit of using National Rail?

As well as the potential comfort/convenience argument, it's about £2 cheaper on PAYG from stations like New Eltham if you do the leg from London Bridge to St Pancras on Thameslink and avoid the tube

 

[phoenix1589]

My journey choice from London Bridge to Kings Cross would be the LUL Northern Line. What would be the benefit of using National Rail?

Short transfer between platforms at London Bridge is a big plus.

I don't know what actually had less waking, but it feels easier - especially when I'm describing it to someone else.

it's about £2 cheaper on PAYG from stations like New Eltham if you do the leg from London Bridge to St Pancras on Thameslink and avoid the tube

This as well, when not booked on a though ticket. Future journeys are only done as Leeds <> Kings cross as the extra is significantly more than the PAYG fare. I don't know why this one was only a couple of ££ more.

 

[yorkie]

Short transfer between platforms at London Bridge is a big plus.

I don't know what actually had less waking, but it feels easier - especially when I'm describing it to someone else.

The walk from NR to LU at London Bridge is very long.

 

[Hadders]

If going to Leeds then staying on Thameslink to Stevenage for a cross platform connection onto an LNER service is often faster.

 

[phoenix1589]

If going to Leeds then staying on Thameslink to Stevenage for a cross platform connection onto an LNER service is often faster.

That's an interesting change I hadn't thought of.

For the next couple of journeys, we're booking (via the LNER app, for convenience) advance singles Leeds <> kings cross at around £20 each way (with senior railcard). The St Pancras to New Eltham leg will be via oyster (with Railcard) at £2.65.

Journeys are generally leaving Leeds on a Friday and back on a Monday every 6ish weeks, coinciding with school holiday!

Is it possible to get a change at Stevenage, for around this price, and can you suggest the right search parameters to do so?

 

[Hadders]

That's an interesting change I hadn't thought of.

For the next couple of journeys, we're booking (via the LNER app, for convenience) advance singles Leeds <> kings cross at around £20 each way (with senior railcard). The St Pancras to New Eltham leg will be via oyster (with Railcard) at £2.65.

Journeys are generally leaving Leeds on a Friday and back on a Monday every 6ish weeks, coinciding with school holiday!

Is it possible to get a change at Stevenage, for around this price, and can you suggest the right search parameters to do so?

If you use the forum's site and specify change at Stevenage that should do it.

 

[Haywain]

For the next couple of journeys, we're booking (via the LNER app, for convenience) advance singles Leeds <> kings cross at around £20 each way (with senior railcard). The St Pancras to New Eltham leg will be via oyster (with Railcard) at £2.65.

This rather removes the convenience of the transfer at Stevenage as you will need to leave the Thameslink train to touch in you Oyster at St Pancras. I have a suspicion that the fares you mention are for 'LNER only' routed tickets, and that buying to St Pancras may increase the fare. The change at Stevenage only really works if you have a ticket from Leeds that also covers your travel to London Bridge.

 

[yorkie]

Is it possible to get a change at Stevenage, for around this price, and can you suggest the right search parameters to do so?

The cheapest fares will be available by booking unpopular times far in advance.

Both the forum's site and Trainsplit have the option to specify change at: Stevenage. Both also have the option to restrict the number of changes to two, for maximum convenience.

The forum's site additionally has the option to specify additional change time, to reduce the chances of a missed connection.

Looking at random days/times:

Results | RailUK Tickets

TrainSplit is a free service that makes it easy to find the cheapest train tickets for your journey.

tickets.railforums.co.uk

Ticket Selection | LNER

www.lner.co.uk

The LNER site sometimes charges premium fares; the forum's site will split, to reduce the cost, wherever it's cheaper to do so.

 

[redreni]

Just a personal preference, but I'd always prefer to do that connection at St Pancras / Kings Cross. Trainline-powered journey planners implement a more realistic minimum connection time for that transfer than is specified in the industry data.

It's not cross-platform, but the reduced journey time between London and Stevenage means more time can be available to make the connection while still having the same end-to-end journey time that you would if you changed at Stevenage. Because of the size of the stations, more time is also mandated, which means, in reality, you'll have plenty of time to spare and to use the better facilities at those larger stations. And there's more chance of making the connection even if Thameslink is disrupted, since you can take any Northbound Thameslink train from London Bridge rather than relying on your booked Stevenage train turning up, and you can still make the connection at St Pancras/Kings Cross even if you arrive there later than planned (due to the more generous minimum connection time which means that, even though it takes longer to change there, the difference between the time you need and the time they have to give you is greater). And if Thameslink is completely up the creek, you can pivot to taking the Northern Line and still make your connection.

 

[yorkie]

Just a personal preference, but I'd always prefer to do that connection at St Pancras / Kings Cross...

This is very variable depending on the requirements of the individual; some people may prefer to minimise walking within/between stations, while others may prefer the opportunity for a leg stretch and to use facilities.

... if Thameslink is completely up the creek, you can pivot to taking the Northern Line and still make your connection.

Providing you have tickets covering a through itinerary, there'd be no problem changing onto the Leeds train at King's Cross instead of Stevenage.

Obviously if someone was using PAYG, then that is a very different prospect; I would always advise obtaining a through itinerary wherever possible for cross-London journeys.

 

[phoenix1589]

Both the forum's site and Trainsplit have the option to specify change at: Stevenage. Both also have the option to restrict the number of changes to two, for maximum convenience.

This (restrict number of changes) was the bit I was missing. Initially it was suggesting changing at York or Sheffield as well as Stevenage - which would be less convenient.

Looking at dates we've already booked (for £20 + PAYG) I can find a split fare Leeds <> New Eltham, changing at Stevenage for £25. Changing at STP to use PAYG seems silly, needing to get off the train. Maybe doing Leeds <> London Bridge (London Underground Zone 1) and then PAYG might be worth it, but the savings are diminishing by this point.

It looks like a common split point on the southbound ticket is finsbury park, which would exclude remaining on the LNER train (as it doesn't stop at Finsbury Park), if there was Thameslink disruption (I presume disruption doesn't override the 'train must stop' requirement on a split?). On the northbound journey, it seems to suggest New Eltham > Stevenage for the first split - so this would be valid on the tube and LNER from Kings Cross if there was Thameslink disruption.

I'll check with the traveller what she would prefer, but I think a same-platform change at Stevenage would be preferred than the KGX<>STP walk.

 

[Hadders]

Looking at dates we've already booked (for £20 + PAYG) I can find a split fare Leeds <> New Eltham, changing at Stevenage for £25. Changing at STP to use PAYG seems silly, needing to get off the train. Maybe doing Leeds <> London Bridge (London Underground Zone 1) and then PAYG might be worth it, but the savings are diminishing by this point.

New Eltham to St Pancras using PAYG is £5.30 peak or £4.00 off peak. Frankly, for such a small saving I'd just get a ticket and itinerary through to New ELtham and forget using PAYG. Makes it much easier if something goes wrong, or you need to claim delay repay.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Just a personal preference, but I'd always prefer to do that connection at St Pancras / Kings Cross. Trainline-powered journey planners implement a more realistic minimum connection time for that transfer than is specified in the industry data.
[...]

Hold on... are we saying Trainline sell tickets based on itineraries that 'break' the standard (but in such cases often overly generous) minimum connection times?

 

[Hadders]

Hold on... are we saying Trainline sell tickets based on itineraries that 'break' the standard (but in such cases often overly generous) minimum connection times?

Yes. They seem to have a non-compliant minimum interchange time of 20 minutes between Kings Cross and St Pancras rather than 31 minutes.

 

[MrJeeves]

Yes. They seem to have a non-compliant minimum interchange time of 20 minutes between Kings Cross and St Pancras rather than 31 minutes.

As does LNER and NRE, for that matter.

 

[redreni]

The nice thing about the through Advance is it has a Maltese Cross, so the itinerary can be via Thameslink or London Underground. If it's via Thameslink (whether changing at Stevenage or changing at St Pancras > Kings Cross) but on the day, Thameslink is up the creek, as @yorkie mentioned, you could just use the ticket on the Underground and go to Kings Cross.

Splitting the ticket at Finsbury Park would make you reliant on Thameslink running to Stevenage. As would splitting at Stevenage, presumably, given the restricted call, since you can't technically split at Stevenage and remain on an LNER train anymore. (They should make the Stevenage LNER calls unrestricted in the event there is no decent Thameslink service to Stevenage, mind).

 

[Hadders]

The nice thing about the through Advance is it has a Maltese Cross, so the itinerary can be via Thameslink or London Underground. If it's via Thameslink (whether changing at Stevenage or changing at St Pancras > Kings Cross) but on the day, Thameslink is up the creek, as @yorkie mentioned, you could just use the ticket on the Underground and go to Kings Cross.

Splitting the ticket at Finsbury Park would make you reliant on Thameslink running to Stevenage. As would splitting at Stevenage, presumably, given the restricted call, since you can't technically split at Stevenage and remain on an LNER train anymore. (They should make the Stevenage LNER calls unrestricted in the event there is no decent Thameslink service to Stevenage, mind).

You can split at Stevenage if it’s also where you change from Thameslink to LNER.

 

[redreni]

You can split at Stevenage if it’s also where you change from Thameslink to LNER.

Yes, exactly, my point was it commits you to using Thameslink between London and Stevenage.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, exactly, my point was it commits you to using Thameslink between London and Stevenage.

Yes, but not in the event of a meltdown on Thameslink.

 

[Sealink]

Sorry if I am repeating the same question, I am purchasing an advance from day return Axminster to Twickenham via Clapham Junction, on a rugby day.
I know that the Axminster - Clapham Jn definitely can't be changed without a fee, what about, specifically, the connecting train from Twickenham back to Clapham Junction? Can I travel on an earlier train if need be?

 

[yorkie]

Sorry if I am repeating the same question, I am purchasing an advance from day return Axminster to Twickenham via Clapham Junction, on a rugby day.
I know that the Axminster - Clapham Jn definitely can't be changed without a fee, what about, specifically, the connecting train from Twickenham back to Clapham Junction? Can I travel on an earlier train if need be?

Where appropriate/relevnt, non-reservable connecting service can be caught, providing it is appropriate (and is being taken for the purpose of maximising the chances of making the connection, not with any intention of breaking the journey).

 

[Sealink]

Where appropriate/relevnt, non-reservable connecting service can be caught, providing it is appropriate (and is being taken for the purpose of maximising the chances of making the connection, not with any intention of breaking the journey).

Thanks for that. It would be for the case of maintaing a connection, apparently Twickenham Station has crowd control in place so if I can get away earlier I will.