Conjoined services - what's the point?

[DanTrain]

So it seems that recently, Northern have become fond of joining the Lincoln - Sheffield to the Adwick - Sheffield. What's the point of this, as it requires a clumsy reverse and wait in Sheffield and isn't even the fastest way from Lincoln to Adwick?

 

[dk1]

So it seems that recently, Northern have become fond of joining the Lincoln - Sheffield to the Adwick - Sheffield. What's the point of this, as it requires a clumsy reverse and wait in Sheffield and isn't even the fastest way from Lincoln to Adwick?

Meadowhall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Portion working? It makes more efficient use of staff and paths than running short trains around on their own.

 

[dk1]

Portion working? It makes more efficient use of staff and paths than running short trains around on their own.

It's not portion working. It's two joined up routes similar to Exmouth-Exeter St.Davids & Exeter St.Davids-Paignton. The common denominator being Exeter Central. In the case shown here in South Yorkshire it's Meadowhall.

 

[robbeech]

What exactly do you mean by "recently"?

 

[DanTrain]

What exactly do you mean by "recently"?

I guess I thought this was quite new in Sheffield, but I may well be wrong.

dk1 - I do see the point about Meadowhell, although with at least 6tph SHF - MHS it doesn't save a lot of time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The point is that it provides a direct train from Worksop, Kiveton, etc, to Meadowhall.

It's been interworking for years.

 

[tbtc]

Meadowhall.

^^ this ^^

It gives Worksop etc a direct link to the large shopping centre - handy if coming home with a few shopping bags!

There's been a through service (from the Lincoln line) to Meadowhall for a number of years - it was the Huddersfield service for a while, but I think that the problems of the single track sections north/west of Barnsley meant it became unreliable.

You could even argue that there's some benefit in giving people in "south Rotherham" (Kiveton area) a link to Rotherham Central?

At least there's some practical benefit to a Worksop - Meadowhall link (it's not the fastest way to get from Lincoln to Doncaster, but then the EMT service from Peterborough to Doncaster isn't the fastest one between those towns and nobody suggests it gets scrapped). Some other services interwork without there being any particular benefit to passengers (often not advertised as through services - e.g. a historic example was the Leeds - Brighouse - Huddersfield service interworking with the Huddersfield - Wakefield service didn't really benefit anyone, but did allow the TOC to squeeze an extra service from their finite number of DMUs)

 

[robbeech]

I guess I thought this was quite new in Sheffield, but I may well be wrong.

dk1 - I do see the point about Meadowhell, although with at least 6tph SHF - MHS it doesn't save a lot of time.

Certainly been like it a few years. Most Services from Lincoln are extended beyond Sheffield to Doncaster, Adwick, the odd one to Scunthorpe. There are a couple of early morning services that extend to Leeds instead, although i think at least one of them starts at Retford (rare track from platform 2) not Lincoln (possibly both) Returns are either from the aforementioned, with a thru service from Huddersfield (via Penistone) in the evening (2018 ex Huddersfield i think), but again i think this only goes to Retford.

For Lincoln/Worksop to Meadowhall it's actually slightly quicker to hop off the train from Lincoln at Sheffield and get on the **50 Leeds fast service which is generally on the next bay platform as this will leave before the Adwick service (usually **53). Of course, it doesn't meet the minimum connection time ad it does use Platform 4 at Meadowhall which involves a longer walk so you don't really gain much, other than a few minutes on a 158 instead of a 14*.

 

[bussnapperwm]

I think Central Trains took the record for craziest conjoined service with trains from Barmouth running to Yarmouth at one stage. Whereas the Northern example above looks sensible.

 

[kieron]

I think Central Trains took the record for craziest conjoined service with trains from Barmouth running to Yarmouth at one stage. Whereas the Northern example above looks sensible.

Which way did that go? Does it really beat XC services such as the Plymouth-Glasgow one (today a mere 35 minutes late reaching Edinburgh)?

 

[DanTrain]

"This resulted in some particularly lengthy services such as those from Aberystwyth in Mid Wales to Grimsby on the opposite coast of the UK.[12][13] This also gave rise to the nickname "The Barmouth to Yarmouth Railway" due to the fact Central Trains operated services in both Mid Wales and East Anglia (certain services were extended from Norwich to Great Yarmouth in the summer)."

From Wikipedia (so perhaps a pinch of salt), but I don't think they ever ran Barmouth - Yarmouth as such, although it looks like Barmouth - Grimsby did run for a while.

The XC Plymouth - Glasgow isn't really conjoined, as I don't think it was ever 2 seperate services, it's just a long intercity route that crosses a lot of other lines, leading to a lot of potential for delay.

 

[dk1]

"This resulted in some particularly lengthy services such as those from Aberystwyth in Mid Wales to Grimsby on the opposite coast of the UK.[12][13] This also gave rise to the nickname "The Barmouth to Yarmouth Railway" due to the fact Central Trains operated services in both Mid Wales and East Anglia (certain services were extended from Norwich to Great Yarmouth in the summer)."

From Wikipedia (so perhaps a pinch of salt), but I don't think they ever ran Barmouth - Yarmouth as such, although it looks like Barmouth - Grimsby did run for a while.

I think the closest was Aberystwyth to Stansted Airport. Yarmouth longer distance RR services tended to go to Liverpool & Lowestoft to Birmingham. This was enhanced on Saturday's on the Yarmouth route & initially there was a 13:45 Yarmouth to Birmingham & 15:05 Lowestoft/Yarmouth to Liverpool on Sunday's.

 

[kieron]

From Wikipedia (so perhaps a pinch of salt), but I don't think they ever ran Barmouth - Yarmouth as such, although it looks like Barmouth - Grimsby did run for a while.

Do you know why this sort of route is criticised (now, long after it was split up for reasons not specific to the route)? It doesn't sound like a problem just from giving the end-points.

The XC Plymouth - Glasgow isn't really conjoined, as I don't think it was ever 2 seperate services, it's just a long intercity route that crosses a lot of other lines, leading to a lot of potential for delay.

I was just basing it on how a map Virgin did show things, with "VT1" covering Plymouth-Glasgow, but via the WCML, and "VT2" given both ECML and WCML routes, but only from Poole or Portsmouth. I don't suppose there was anything straightforward in the way their routes were dismantled, though.

 

[route:oxford]

Which way did that go? Does it really beat XC services such as the Plymouth-Glasgow one (today a mere 35 minutes late reaching Edinburgh)?

Why do you want to stop people from Glasgow having a direct route to Newcastle or York?

 

[kieron]

Why do you want to stop people from Glasgow having a direct route to Newcastle or York?

It can't be something TPTB are too concerned about providing (I'll assume that you meant "from" rather than "to" in the above, as I'm not sure how else you could have meant it), or else they'd provide a train which was faster and more reliable than that one.

 

[route:oxford]

It can't be something TPTB are too concerned about providing (I'll assume that you meant "from" rather than "to" in the above, as I'm not sure how else you could have meant it), or else they'd provide a train which was faster and more reliable than that one.

No I meant it exactly as I keyed it.

Why do you want to stop people from Glasgow having a direct route to Newcastle or York?

There are no trains that could undertake the route from Glasgow Central to York via Edinburgh quicker or more reliably than the Voyager or HST stock that are used by XC.

 

[Class 170101]

There is also a reason for that service to do with people flows between West Scotland and the north east of England as I understand it. Hence originally it was a Kings Cross to Glasgow East Coast service but wasn't abolished from the North East but transferred to Cross Country when said operator took over (I believe it was part of the Eureka timetable improvements)..

 

[Tetchytyke]

XC took over the 1tp2h York-Newcastle-Glasgow train when Eureka happened, as EC couldn't run that and increase frequencies elsewhere.

I still don't see the point of XC running beyond Edinburgh. It's still quicker to change at Edinburgh for the Scotrail express rather than take the magical mystery tour of Lanarkshire.

 

[DanTrain]

I still don't see the point of XC running beyond Edinburgh. It's still quicker to change at Edinburgh for the Scotrail express rather than take the magical mystery tour of Lanarkshire.

It does seem a little OTT, for example from Sheffield, it's quicker to either change in Manchester or even stagger across Warrington than to go via Edinburgh. I can't imagine the traffic from Newcastle and York is so great as to necessitate a through service, especially one that's slower than changing.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe there was political pressure to retain a through service to NE England when the ECML Glasgow services were taken off. Newcastle is the closest major centre in England to the Scottish central belt and there is said to be a fair number of journeys between them, with the road alternative being fairly poor and no flights as far as I'm aware. I agree there's not much point in through service between Glasgow and south of Leeds, but this is one of those services that serves different shorter-distance markets as part of a longer journey, so Glasgow passengers getting off at Newcastle and Leeds will be replaced by others boarding there and wishing to travel further south.