Confusion over railcard

[R0]

Hi,
This is my first time posting I hope I’m doing it right sorry if I’m not.
A few weeks ago I travelled at peak time (first time) from Euston to Apsley on a single ticket. I accidentally clicked on 16-17 when ordering my ticket instead of 16-25. The worker at Euston didn’t stop me when I showed him my ticket to get through the barriers, otherwise I would have realized. When I was on the train and I realized, I went and spoke to one of the inspectors at Apsley.

She was very nice and explained to me the difference between the railcards and told me to go to this website which I now know to be the appeals website to rectify it. There was a difference of £2. Another inspector overheard and verified the same thing.
I took that to mean I would just have to pay the difference so I wasn’t worried, otherwise I would have just tapped out with my contactless card and paid the max amount.

I was never told there might be a fare the whole conversation, she highlighted on a receipt she handed me the website and other information and told me she will tell them that it was a wrong railcard used. When I saw the receipt I saw that it said there may be a fine of £50 however as that was never mentioned to me I didn’t think it would apply as she never said that to me once. I did hear her speaking to a person in front of me who didn’t have a ticket at all and she told him that he may have to pay the fare so when she didn’t tell me I thought I wouldn’t have to.

When I sent this appeal I got told that I would have to pay £59.50 which includes the price of the original ticket. On top of the £7.50 I already paid.
As a student I will really struggle to pay that much, I got the railcard in the first place to help me afford tickets.

It said I can appeal again and it will be sent to a third party or something like that to be looked at.
I was just wondering what I can say to help me here? As £67 is a very expensive mistake and the thing that gets me is that it was completely accidental and now I know there’s two railcards beginning with 16 I will make sure I always choose the right one. I really can’t afford this at the moment so any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you

 

[Haywain]

It sounds like you were issued with a Penalty Fare Notice, which would be appropriate for a mistake such as yours. If that is the case you have 21 days to launch an appeal but that time for a second appeal may be running short. If you can post a copy of the notice here with your personal details obscured we can advise whether there are grounds for appeal that may not be obvious to you. Please also post the appeal you sent and the response you received as these will help us to understand the timescales involved.

 

[R0]

Thank you.
It’s not letting me upload the picture of the notice, I can try again later but it does say penalty fare notice, and the appeals bit at the bottom is all highlighted where the worker told me what to do.
I don’t know how to access what I said in the appeal but it was very short something like “I accidentally bought a ticket with a 16-17 railcard when I have a 16/25.” Then I included my railcard which is what the worker told me to do. I didn’t expand much or anything as I thought it would be a simple thing of paying the difference. I have attached the response.

My main issues were how neither of the people at Apsley told me about the possibility of a fine, it was really made out to be a pay the difference type thing. Also how the worker at Euston annoyingly didn’t notice either otherwise I could have changed it.
Also I found it weird how they want me to pay the fine and the price of the full ticket on top of what I already paid, so in total they want me to pay more than someone who purposely tried to avoid paying completely.
I understand penalties are issued as a deterrent for people trying to dodge paying but in my case where I didn’t try to do anything wrong and tried to pay the correct ticket and just made a mistake- it seems pretty harsh. And as a student it’s difficult to be charged like this for a complete accidental mistake.

I’ll try and upload again when I’m home. Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it!

 

[ikcdab]

You have no grounds for appeal. This is a very common form of fare evasion and the railway company have no way of knowing whether this was a mistake or deliberate. But, as the letter says, the penalty is to encourage you to check more carefully in future. The staff who catch you often say things to keep the situation calm. You may appeal again, but all this is likely to do is to delay the inevitable, but this may give you the time to save you the money.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you are able to upload the notice, we can see if the notice is not complaint in some way. You may have technical grounds of appeal.

However “this is too much for me to pay” or “seems harsh” are not grounds for appeal which is why your first appeal was rejected. You need to be able to state either on compelling grounds why you shouldn’t have to pay the notice, or point out how the notice doesn’t comply with the regulations.

 

[StarCrossing]

Note that today appears to be the deadline for a second appeal.

 

[Haywain]

Note that today appears to be the deadline for a second appeal.

I don't think it will be as the first appeal will have stopped the clock for at least a few days.

 

[R0]

You have no grounds for appeal. This is a very common form of fare evasion and the railway company have no way of knowing whether this was a mistake or deliberate. But, as the letter says, the penalty is to encourage you to check more carefully in future. The staff who catch you often say things to keep the situation calm. You may appeal again, but all this is likely to do is to delay the inevitable, but this may give you the time to save you the money.

Crazy what people do then as it was only a £2 difference! Aha I definitely don’t look like someone who needs to be kept calm or could lose their temper, but I actually went up to them in the first place to ask what I should do. We then had a chat about a few things that we had in common first, but I feel like the very minimum they could do is inform someone if there is a possibility of a penalty rather than leaving it to be a surprise. Am I right in thinking then that they pretty much always decline these appeals then if it’s things like wrong railcard, even if it’s only a couple of quid? If so why do the workers put so much emphasis on appealing?

 

[PaulJ]

My main issues were how neither of the people at Apsley told me about the possibility of a fine

That's because you haven't been fined, you've been given a penalty fare instead. I'd pay it, put it down to experience and get on with your life.

 

[R0]

If you are able to upload the notice, we can see if the notice is not complaint in some way. You may have technical grounds of appeal.

However “this is too much for me to pay” or “seems harsh” are not grounds for appeal which is why your first appeal was rejected. You need to be able to state either on compelling grounds why you shouldn’t have to pay the notice, or point out how the notice doesn’t comply with the regulations.

Oh I never said that in my appeal. It was very much just one sentence of stating that I accidentally chose the wrong railcard. I’ll try and post the notice now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

I hope it’s readable please let me know if it isn’t!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

Because the PF number wasn’t clear I accidentally entered it incorrectly in the appeal, however in the response it then had the correct one so I assume someone changed it?

 

[ikcdab]

Crazy what people do then as it was only a £2 difference! Aha I definitely don’t look like someone who needs to be kept calm or could lose their temper, but I actually went up to them in the first place to ask what I should do. We then had a chat about a few things that we had in common first, but I feel like the very minimum they could do is inform someone if there is a possibility of a penalty rather than leaving it to be a surprise. Am I right in thinking then that they pretty much always decline these appeals then if it’s things like wrong railcard, even if it’s only a couple of quid? If so why do the workers put so much emphasis on appealing?

They say that to calm the situation. "I am going to issue a penalty but you can appeal". But all appeals will fail unless there is a compelling reason. And being "just £2" is not a compelling reason, otherwise everyone would do that.

 

[furlong]

A few weeks ago I travelled at peak time (first time) from Euston to Apsley on a single ticket.

Precisely which train did you catch? The PF was issued at 18:11

You have been charged an off-peak fare "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 and trains timed to depart after 16:00 and before 19:00.".
Surely the PF should have been based on the Anytime fare, £13.30 so you could appeal on the basis that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations?
In other words you were in possession of a ticket that was not valid and were then sold another different ticket that was also not valid for your journey!
And throw in the problems with the signs at Euston not complying with the regulations (failing to use the mandated words - see other threads).

 

[R0]

They say that to calm the situation. "I am going to issue a penalty but you can appeal". But all appeals will fail unless there is a compelling reason. And being "just £2" is not a compelling reason, otherwise everyone would do that.

That’s the thing she never said she would issue a penalty. That’s why I was calm and never really questioned anything.
When I went up to her I said “So I’ve made a mistake, I accidentally bought a 16-17 railcard instead of a 16-25.” She then scanned it and told another worker who came over and explained the price difference between the two and said so it will just have to be fixed. I was like sure okay (thinking that it means pay the difference) and she asked me for personal information. We then had a quick little chat about some non-train related things and she handed me that paper and explained the bits she highlighted and said so if you go on there and explain your situation they’ll sort it. She also said she’ll do the same from her end. The only time she mentioned a penalty to me is she said don’t ignore it and do nothing as then after a month I’ll have to pay £100. So she never mentioned anything about the possibility of paying a penalty straight up and I never knew that this website I would be going on would be appealing the penalty until I went on it. That’s why I feel like I wasn’t told everything I should have been, especially as to the person before me she did talk about the £50 penalty to them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume the fare discrepancy highlighted by @furlong, potentially fatally undermines the validity of the PF issued, as the £9.50 off peak day single fare wouldn't normally be valid, would it, for peak hours travel on a train arriving at Apsley from London Euston at or around 1811 on a Tuesday (likely to have been either the 1734 or 1739 West Midlands Railway departures from London Euston).

 

[ikcdab]

The fact that she didn't say anything won't wash. The paper she gave you and which you posted above does explain exactly, so you were told. You are expected to read it.

 

[R0]

Precisely which train did you catch? The PF was issued at 18:11

You have been charged an off-peak fare "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 and trains timed to depart after 16:00 and before 19:00.".
Surely the PF should have been based on the Anytime fare, £13.30 so you could appeal on the basis that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations?
In other words you were in possession of a ticket that was not valid and were then sold another different ticket that was also not valid for your journey!
And throw in the problems with the signs at Euston not complying with the regulations (failing to use the mandated words - see other threads).

It was either the 17:34 or 17:39.
And sorry what do you mean by the signs at Euston? I’ll check the other threads like you said.
Thank you for your help, it’s really appreciated!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 May 2025 ==

Presume the fare discrepancy highlighted by @furlong, potentially fatally undermines the validity of the PF issued, as the £9.50 off peak day single fare wouldn't normally be valid, would it, for peak hours travel on a train arriving at Apsley from London Euston at or around 1811 on a Tuesday (likely to have been either the 1734 or 1739 West Midlands Railway departures from London Euston).

Yes I was on one of those trains, can’t remember which off the top of my head.

 

[Haywain]

Presume the fare discrepancy highlighted by @furlong, potentially fatally undermines the validity of the PF issued, as the £9.50 off peak day single fare wouldn't normally be valid, would it, for peak hours travel on a train arriving at Apsley from London Euston at or around 1811 on a Tuesday (likely to have been either the 1734 or 1739 West Midlands Railway departures from London Euston).

I feel the need to point out that we have seen some recent appeals fail when the grounds are that the amount charged has been too low.

 

[R0]

I feel the need to point out that we have seen some recent appeals fail when the grounds are that the amount charged has been too low.

Ah that wasn’t mentioned in the response I received from the appeal. Is that true then? The amount charged is wrong?

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah that wasn’t mentioned in the response I received from the appeal. Is that true then? The amount charged is wrong?

The amount charged is wrong, correct, but it is too low. Rather, they should have charged you more.

 

[Haywain]

Ah that wasn’t mentioned in the response I received from the appeal. Is that true then? The amount charged is wrong?

No, your appeal failed because you did not provide grounds for the Penalty Fare Notice to be overturned due to having been wrongly issued. The appeal panel will not consuder grounds other than those you have submitted.

 

[R0]

Okay, sorry so just so I’m clear- What should I say now in my next appeal? Do I mention how the penalty is wrong or do I not mention that?

 

[furlong]

You should appeal on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations that state how the fare charged is to be arrived at.

As a second ground, that the notices at Euston do not comply with the regulations. If you are passing through that station, take a photo of one of the notices you would have passed when catching that train and include it as evidence.

You should quote from the regulations. There are several examples on the forum. Sorry I don't have time to write this for you but the core is this:

(2A) In paragraph (1A), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A).

(6) In this regulation “the full single fare applicable” is to be determined by reference to—
...
(b) the day and time of the journey that person is making, has made or intends to make, as the case may be;

That fare was £13.30 (see brfares.com) not the £9.50 charged. (You could evidence this by selecting the same journey on a similar more recent date from nationalrail.co.uk - the fares haven't changed)

Here's an example of the notice type of appeal - it would just be the wrong wording part of this (with a photo to prove it) - unless you think you can also make a notice placement argument
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189

 

[John R]

Reiterating @Haywain's point, we have seen appeals that the fare charged was too low fail on the grounds that it was to the passenger's advantage, rather than a strict interpretation of the rules. I'm not saying that's correct or fair, but it's certainly what we have seen, so any appeal based on those grounds should be made with a low expectation of success.

 

[furlong]

I feel the need to point out that we have seen some recent appeals fail when the grounds are that the amount charged has been too low.

I don't read anything into that - we see all manner of appeals fail that "we" think ought to succeed! We have seen several "wrong fare" ones succeed. In terms of the regulations, it makes no difference - the fare is either the one stipulated or it isn't and there's no discretion available. There are two more chances here, and I'd still include the original discretionary argument (wrong railcard volunteered - could have just tapped out and got away with it) as an additional ground.

 

[R0]

I don't read anything into that - we see all manner of appeals fail that "we" think ought to succeed! We have seen several "wrong fare" ones succeed. In terms of the regulations, it makes no difference - the fare is either the one stipulated or it isn't and there's no discretion available. There are two more chances here, and I'd still include the original discretionary argument (wrong railcard volunteered - could have just tapped out and got away with it) as an additional ground.

Thank you so much for all your help, I’ll write up an appeal soon and use everything you said. Thank you for linking the regulations there, you’ve been a massive help. I know nothing really about any of this so it’s been so useful. I’ll maybe post what I’m going to say here before I send it.

 

[StarCrossing]

I don't think it will be as the first appeal will have stopped the clock for at least a few days.

Could you please clarify what you mean by this? The letter shown to us by the OP is the rejection of the first appeal, so presumably already allows for the clock having stopped and restarted?

By my reading, the OP has two hours left to submit their second appeal. However, this appeal doesn't need to be perfect, as they still have a third appeal if the second is unsuccessful. But they must submit the second appeal in time to be granted a third appeal.

 

[Haywain]

Could you please clarify what you mean by this? The letter shown to us by the OP is the rejection of the first appeal, so presumably already allows for the clock having stopped and restarted?

By my reading, the OP has two hours left to submit their second appeal. However, this appeal doesn't need to be perfect, as they still have a third appeal if the second is unsuccessful. But they must submit the second appeal in time to be granted a third appeal.

The 21 days in which an appeal can be made does not, as I understand it, include time while an appeal is being considered. It would be perverse to limit the time for 3 appeal stages in that way.

 

[StarCrossing]

The 21 days in which an appeal can be made does not, as I understand it, include time while an appeal is being considered. It would be perverse to limit the time for 3 appeal stages in that way.

I think perhaps you're getting confused by an apparent coincidence.

You appear to be referring to the 21 days since 6th May that the OP had for making their first appeal. Hence they had to make their first appeal by 27th May.

However, the OP appealed quickly, and the appeal was reviewed and rejected swiftly, with the OP being informed on 13th May. They were also informed on 13th May that they now had 14 days to submit a second appeal. By coincidence, 14 days from 13th May is also 27th May.

I maintain that if the OP does not submit their second appeal by midnight tonight, they risk their second appeal being rejected due to not being submitted in time. If this happens, they will lose their right to a third appeal. I seem to recall seeing appeals being rejected in the past for being submitted only a single day late, though hopefully that won't happen here.

 

[R0]

I think perhaps you're getting confused by an apparent coincidence.

You appear to be referring to the 21 days since 6th May that the OP had for making their first appeal. Hence they had to make their first appeal by 27th May.

However, the OP appealed quickly, and the appeal was reviewed and rejected swiftly, with the OP being informed on 13th May. They were also informed on 13th May that they now had 14 days to submit a second appeal. By coincidence, 14 days from 13th May is also 27th May.

I maintain that if the OP does not submit their second appeal by midnight tonight, they risk their second appeal being rejected due to not being submitted in time. If this happens, they will lose their right to a third appeal. I seem to recall seeing appeals being rejected in the past for being submitted only a single day late, though hopefully that won't happen here.

I saw your message at about 10 to midnight so to be safe quickly sent an appeal. I didn’t have time to include all the information on here so I just went mainly on emotion for this one. But as I get a third I can then include all the information on that one. Thanks

 

[StarCrossing]

I saw your message at about 10 to midnight so to be safe quickly sent an appeal. I didn’t have time to include all the information on here so I just went mainly on emotion for this one. But as I get a third I can then include all the information on that one. Thanks

Well done!

If I were you, I’d assume that the second appeal will be unsuccessful and get cracking on drafting your third appeal, using one or more of the suggestions others have made above.

You should get another 14 days after the decision on the second appeal, but it’s good to be prepared, especially if you’re going to include photos of non-compliant signage.