Thank you for the advice! Could you please advise on what non-complaint signage is and how I show that?
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Confusion over railcard
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StarCrossing
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It was @furlong who raised the issue of non-compliant signage in post #12, so they would be best-placed to advise. There are strict rules about the placement of penalty fare signs on stations and the wording on the signs, but I'm not familiar with the signs at Euston.
ikcdab
Member
One of the pieces of legislation, I can't remember which and I am out but will check when I'm back, lays down exactly what the wording of the warning signs should be. Many signs so not conform with that legislation.
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It's this
The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018
These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.
Thank you so much! I’ll look into it.One of the pieces of legislation, I can't remember which and I am out but will check when I'm back, lays down exactly what the wording of the warning signs should be. Many signs so not conform with that legislation.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
It's this
The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018
These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.www.legislation.gov.uk
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Thank you!
I was at Euston today and from the underground to my train platform there are actually no signs at all. There are two ticket machines near the platforms and there are no signs there either
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Hi everyone, I wrote an appeal and was wondering if anyone could tell me if it sounds good and if I included all the relevant information regarding reasons to appeal. It took me a long time even with help so I hope it sounds good and makes sense.
Thanks!
I am writing to challenge the Penalty Fare issued to me for my journey on Tuesday 6th May from London Euston to Apsley.
I acknowledge that I mistakenly selected a 16–17 Railcard instead of my valid 16–25 Railcard while purchasing my ticket. This was an honest and minor error that resulted in a small underpayment of approximately £2. Importantly, I had already paid £7.50 toward the correct fare, and I proactively approached railway staff to explain the mistake and offered to pay the difference, knowing that I could have just tapped out with my card and paid the max fair which turns out would be cheaper. Nonetheless, I was issued a Penalty Fare after stating my mistake.
I respectfully request that the Penalty Fare be cancelled on the following legal and procedural grounds:
1. Absence of Legally Required Signage at London Euston Station.
Under the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, Schedule 1, Paragraph 2(a), a Penalty Fare scheme is only valid if:
“Notices must be displayed at each station where the penalty fare provisions are in force, in such positions and numbers as are necessary to give adequate notice to persons entering the station.”
On the date of my journey, there were no Penalty Fare warning signs visible at any point along my route from my route from the underground into the mainline station, near the ticket machines, or at the ticket barriers at London Euston.
Section 8 (4) also states “Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.”
Because there was no signage, this also comes under a failure to use mandated words which is also in the regulations as an invalid penalty fare.
This failure to display the required signage means the Penalty Fare provisions were not lawfully in effect, and therefore the Penalty Fare issued is invalid under statute.
Penalty fares - train passenger exclusions
6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation "the passenger") must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train— (b) “the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied.”
2. Incorrect Fare Used to Calculate the Penalty – Breach of Statutory Definition
According to Schedule 1, Paragraph 4(1) of the 2018 Regulations, a Penalty Fare must be based on “the full single fare applicable” for the journey in question. This is further clarified in paragraph (2A):
“In paragraph (1A), ‘the full single fare applicable’ is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A).”
Despite this, the Penalty Fare issued to me was based on an off-peak fare of £9.50, when I travelled during peak hours, and the correct Anytime Single fare from Euston to Apsley is £13.30. The incorrect use of a lower fare in calculating the penalty means the notice was not issued in accordance with legal requirements and should be withdrawn. Which means the ticket that I would be then be sold would also be invalid.
3. No Intent to Avoid Payment – Regulation of Railways Act 1889, Section 5(3)(a)
This section makes clear that intent is essential in determining fare evasion:
“If any person, with intent to avoid payment, travels… without having previously paid his fare…”
I had no intention to avoid payment. I had paid for my journey and made a small, genuine mistake in selecting the wrong Railcard, resulting in a marginal underpayment. I then immediately disclosed the error and offered to correct it. This is clearly not an attempt to evade a fare.
4. Disproportionality of the Penalty.
The penalty of £59.50 is almost 30 times greater than the £2 underpayment. As a financially struggling student who bought my 16-25 Railcard to save money, this is the opposite of what I was expecting, as I stated earlier I could have tapped out with my card and it would have been cheaper to pay the max fare. Now by paying this fine plus my original ticket I bought, I am now paying more than someone who intentionally fare dodged. Given that I was honest, paid most of the fare, and cooperated fully, this outcome is disproportionate and undermines the purpose of the penalty system, which should deter deliberate fare evasion — not penalise good-faith passengers for minor errors.
Attached I have included a copy of my valid 16–25 Railcard, a copy of my original ticket, a screenshot showing the price of a peak ticket for my journey, and proof that there is no signage at Euston.
For the reasons above, I respectfully ask that this Penalty Fare be cancelled. I remain happy to pay any outstanding fare difference.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Hi everyone, I wrote an appeal and was wondering if anyone could tell me if it sounds good and if I included all the relevant information regarding reasons to appeal. It took me a long time even with help so I hope it sounds good and makes sense.
Thanks!
I am writing to challenge the Penalty Fare issued to me for my journey on Tuesday 6th May from London Euston to Apsley.
I acknowledge that I mistakenly selected a 16–17 Railcard instead of my valid 16–25 Railcard while purchasing my ticket. This was an honest and minor error that resulted in a small underpayment of approximately £2. Importantly, I had already paid £7.50 toward the correct fare, and I proactively approached railway staff to explain the mistake and offered to pay the difference, knowing that I could have just tapped out with my card and paid the max fair which turns out would be cheaper. Nonetheless, I was issued a Penalty Fare after stating my mistake.
I respectfully request that the Penalty Fare be cancelled on the following legal and procedural grounds:
1. Absence of Legally Required Signage at London Euston Station.
Under the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, Schedule 1, Paragraph 2(a), a Penalty Fare scheme is only valid if:
“Notices must be displayed at each station where the penalty fare provisions are in force, in such positions and numbers as are necessary to give adequate notice to persons entering the station.”
On the date of my journey, there were no Penalty Fare warning signs visible at any point along my route from my route from the underground into the mainline station, near the ticket machines, or at the ticket barriers at London Euston.
Section 8 (4) also states “Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.”
Because there was no signage, this also comes under a failure to use mandated words which is also in the regulations as an invalid penalty fare.
This failure to display the required signage means the Penalty Fare provisions were not lawfully in effect, and therefore the Penalty Fare issued is invalid under statute.
Penalty fares - train passenger exclusions
6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation "the passenger") must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train— (b) “the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied.”
2. Incorrect Fare Used to Calculate the Penalty – Breach of Statutory Definition
According to Schedule 1, Paragraph 4(1) of the 2018 Regulations, a Penalty Fare must be based on “the full single fare applicable” for the journey in question. This is further clarified in paragraph (2A):
“In paragraph (1A), ‘the full single fare applicable’ is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A).”
Despite this, the Penalty Fare issued to me was based on an off-peak fare of £9.50, when I travelled during peak hours, and the correct Anytime Single fare from Euston to Apsley is £13.30. The incorrect use of a lower fare in calculating the penalty means the notice was not issued in accordance with legal requirements and should be withdrawn. Which means the ticket that I would be then be sold would also be invalid.
3. No Intent to Avoid Payment – Regulation of Railways Act 1889, Section 5(3)(a)
This section makes clear that intent is essential in determining fare evasion:
“If any person, with intent to avoid payment, travels… without having previously paid his fare…”
I had no intention to avoid payment. I had paid for my journey and made a small, genuine mistake in selecting the wrong Railcard, resulting in a marginal underpayment. I then immediately disclosed the error and offered to correct it. This is clearly not an attempt to evade a fare.
4. Disproportionality of the Penalty.
The penalty of £59.50 is almost 30 times greater than the £2 underpayment. As a financially struggling student who bought my 16-25 Railcard to save money, this is the opposite of what I was expecting, as I stated earlier I could have tapped out with my card and it would have been cheaper to pay the max fare. Now by paying this fine plus my original ticket I bought, I am now paying more than someone who intentionally fare dodged. Given that I was honest, paid most of the fare, and cooperated fully, this outcome is disproportionate and undermines the purpose of the penalty system, which should deter deliberate fare evasion — not penalise good-faith passengers for minor errors.
Attached I have included a copy of my valid 16–25 Railcard, a copy of my original ticket, a screenshot showing the price of a peak ticket for my journey, and proof that there is no signage at Euston.
For the reasons above, I respectfully ask that this Penalty Fare be cancelled. I remain happy to pay any outstanding fare difference.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
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Frame your appeal as in accordance with regulation 17(2) on the grounds 16(3)(a) for the your first two reasons and then 16(3)(d) for reasons 3 and 4.
(There could be a lot of wordsmithing to be done here.)
(For Euston, state your platform number.)
(I see no harm leaving it in, but to argue reason 3 properly it would need a much more complex legal argument to link it to the role performed by Penalty Fares and the crucial role played by the notices in allowing for a reversed burden of proof etc.)
("I would be then be sold" - just say the fare you were sold to rectify the problem "was" itself not valid for the journey you made!)
(There could be a lot of wordsmithing to be done here.)
(For Euston, state your platform number.)
(I see no harm leaving it in, but to argue reason 3 properly it would need a much more complex legal argument to link it to the role performed by Penalty Fares and the crucial role played by the notices in allowing for a reversed burden of proof etc.)
("I would be then be sold" - just say the fare you were sold to rectify the problem "was" itself not valid for the journey you made!)
Okay I’ll make those changes now. You say about wordsmithing, do you have any advice on how to make myself sound clearer/smarter? English is not my first language so I sometimes struggle when talking about things I don’t know much about.
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As this is my third appeal is there anything else I should take into consideration?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
As this is my third appeal is there anything else I should take into consideration?
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WesternLancer
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Cut out the whole early paragraph starting ‘I acknowledge….’ As that basically admits you used the wrong railcard and the person reading it might not bother to read any further.
Your appeal should be limited to what they have done wrong. Not what you have done wrong.
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