Confusion At St Pancras

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

Last Saturday morning my 18 year old nephew travelled down to London for the day to watch Derby play Reading. Having watched an entertaining game we headed back to London and had a few pints in and around the Euston Road before he caught his train home.

As an 18 year old A Level student this was his first train journey by himself and so we walked into St Pancras to make sure that everything would be ok. My nephew was travelling on the 20.26 and around 20.10 the train was assigned platform 1. However at the same time an announcement was made that the train would leave from platform 1B due to there being two trains on platform 1. Basically there were two 5 car Meridians on platform 1, the train at the front running to Derby and the train at the back (1A??) running to Nottingham a few minutes later.

As soon as this was all announced I explained to my nephew that he needed to get on the second train on the platform. At this point we said our farewells and headed off for the Tube and home. Unfortunately my nephew thought he had reached the 2nd (Derby bound) train when in fact he hadn't. I don't need to explain the rest although his Mother (my sister) wasn't too happy about the extra expense!

Now I understand that only having four platforms for EMT trains services at St Pancras is far from ideal and that it's inevitable that two different trains will occupy the same platform. However, I do think that EMT could do more to help people board the correct train. My suggestion would be a large mobile electronic screen with a large arrow pointing towards the right train. From what I can see there is nothing to state where platform 1A ends and 1B starts and this surely needs to change.

Your thoughts would be very welcome!

Regards,

Richmond Commuter

 

[hassaanhc]

I've seen the same at Nottingham, platforms split into A and B. The time I was there I wasn't sure whether the train was the EMT to London until platform was announced, barely 6 minutes before departure despite the train being sat there for over 20 minutes (I was sitting in the waiting room on the platform right next to the correct train!) Again no division where A ends and B starts. We were lucky to find a seat.

On the other hand, at Waterloo they often announce "front 4 coaches only" (or 3/5 depending on the type) if there is more than one separate unit parked in a platform, along with a large moveable sign on the platform which says "Front train beyond this point". The platforms here do not have letters.

 

[YorkshireBear]

A better solution is to leave the train departing second locked until after the first has departed. IMHO, that works well at Leeds platform 17. I have major concerns what will happen if trains need lengthening post MML electrification and we can no longer fit two services in one platform.

 

[TheJRB]

I think one of the problems is the regular shortage of announcements. Because there are no automated announcements on the East Midlands Trains side of St Pancras, the staff are relied upon to make manual announcements and sometimes this means there are no announcements at all (notably more so on weekends). Of course the automated announcements also are able to specify the front train only too, so installing such a system would kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

 

[user15681]

A better solution is to leave the train departing second locked until after the first has departed. IMHO, that works well at Leeds platform 17. I have major concerns what will happen if trains need lengthening post MML electrification and we can no longer fit two services in one platform.

It's certainly an idea, but might be a bit tricky in this scenario given that the train departing second is timetabled to do so only 4 minutes after the first.

I'm sure at Euston there are big posters put on the platforms for LM trains which say "the front train is past this point" or something similar. Other London terminals, such as Victoria won't refer to them as platform 1A or similar, but simply say "the train furthest from the ticket barriers". It's a very unfortunate situation for your nephew and more could probably be done to improve the situation, even if it's a couple of posters or rephrasing what's said.

 

[RichmondCommu]

A better solution is to leave the train departing second locked until after the first has departed. IMHO, that works well at Leeds platform 17. I have major concerns what will happen if trains need lengthening post MML electrification and we can no longer fit two services in one platform.

I concur. However the problem is with only four platforms available turn around time for EMT is limited and I think locking the second train might lead to delays.

Regarding your second point I think the Corby trains will need to run as part of an extended Thameslink service. Other than that there is no room for further expansion I'm afraid.

 

[westv]

I always thought it was pretty obvious where one train ended and another started but I suppose I was wrong.

I'm surprised your nephew has got to 18 without travelling on a train by himself but perhaps there are personal reasons. Apologies if that is the case.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I always thought it was pretty obvious where one train ended and another started but I suppose I was wrong.

I'm surprised your nephew has got to 18 without travelling on a train by himself but perhaps there are personal reasons. Apologies if that is the case.

In all fairness my 18 year old nephew has never had a reason to travel by himself using the train! Not only that but due to space constraints the two Meridians would have been parked very close together, so yes I think you are wrong!

For what its worth Ben is a bright lad, just not used to travelling by train by himself! It's a pity he didn't travel back on the Sunday evening when our 20 year old twins were heading back to Notts Uni.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I always thought it was pretty obvious where one train ended and another started but I suppose I was wrong.

I'm surprised your nephew has got to 18 without travelling on a train by himself but perhaps there are personal reasons. Apologies if that is the case.

It is not uncommon as it depends where you live entirely as to how often you use the train... I lived to a local station and i am an enthusiast, not everyone is...

 

[westv]

It is not uncommon as it depends where you live entirely as to how often you use the train... I lived to a local station and i am an enthusiast, not everyone is...

Fair enough. I was born and brought up in south London so the train and bus were common modes of transport for me from about 11.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Fair enough. I was born and brought up in south London so the train and bus were common modes of transport for me from about 11.

Don't forget boarding a bus is very different to boarding a train as you can ask the driver on a bus! Not only that but my nephew has access to a car which is a practical form of transport in the East Midlands.

 

[transmanche]

I'm surprised your nephew has got to 18 without travelling on a train by himself but perhaps there are personal reasons.

I know quite a few people who are much older than that and have never travelled on a mainline train...

 

[daccer]

I recently used St Pancras after being out of the country for a few years. The EMT section is very constrained and 2 trains in one platform is an issue especially when it is not uncommon to see two trains running in multiple. Hence when you see two trains in the same platform it I not beyond the realms of possibility to assume they are running together.

Surely all EMT need to do is stick a couple of staff members on the platform and direct people onwards to the right train. Not necessarily by the gateline but actually near the train in question.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

What cretin decided that 4 platforms - with no possibility of ever adding more - was the ideal configuration for the new St Pancras? Talk about future proof....

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Don't mean to come across as rude, but what about the destination display at the end of each Class 222 unit? I think there is also a panel near to each door which displays the destination but can't find a clear picture to confirm if that's the case, can anyone who has travelled on a Class 222 confirm what that panel is?

 

[Qwerty133]

Don't mean to come across as rude, but what about the destination display at the end of each Class 222 unit? I think there is also a panel near to each door which displays the destination but can't find a clear picture to confirm if that's the case, can anyone who has travelled on a Class 222 confirm what that panel is?

The screen near the doors does show the destination as well as all calling points.
If we were on about 2 sprinters I may be feeling different, but the end of a meridian is noticeably sloped and completely different to the space between other coaches.

 

[PaulLothian]

Edinburgh Waverley regularly doubles up departures. normally locking the doors on the second train to depart, and also explaining on the platform end train displays. Doesn't stop people getting confused - in the last three months I have advised people standing next to the locked unit, panickily discussing why the doors are locked when it's leaving in one minute, and had to explain to another person that the first train was the one leaving first, not the first one they had reached...

 

[IKBrunel]

If you're rushing for a train it's easy to miss things. Also platform arrangements need to take account of the deaf and partially sighted etc.

I think the floor standing "Platform Xa ends here" or "Board here onwards for Beeston / Market Harborough" are a very good idea. much less likely to get missed.
In addition to audible announcements for blind partially sighted.

Clearer information => less stressful journeys => satisfied passengers => more passengers in future => success of railway industry

 

[Greenback]

Much more can, and should be done to reduce the chances of this sort of thing happening. My guess is that on Saturday evening there will be fewer station staff around to assist passengers, and I bet that the train crew are so tightly diagrammed that they wouldn't have the time to stand on the platform and explain to befuddled customers what is happening.

At Swansea there are sometimes two trains in platform three, both heading to West Wales within five minutes of each other. The front one is the quicker service, while the rear train calls at the request stops. even with the latter locked, and staff at the unit to help, there can still be confusion.

I guess that something like a mobile sign saying that 'This is the Front Train' would be the best solution for St Pancras, the industry is far too complacent when it comes to passenger information. Not to mention over reliant on automation.

 

[NathanPrior]

From what I can see there is nothing to state where platform 1A ends and 1B starts and this surely needs to change.

There are boards out on the platform saying where 1A/1B start and end.

 

[DarloRich]

G'day everyone,

Last Saturday morning my 18 year old nephew travelled down to London for the day to watch Derby play Reading. Having watched an entertaining game we headed back to London and had a few pints in and around the Euston Road before he caught his train home.

As an 18 year old A Level student this was his first train journey by himself

18! First train journey on his own - WOW! I was going by train all over the country from about 13 and by train to the away matches at 14!

 

[YorkshireBear]

18! First train journey on his own - WOW! I was going by train all over the country from about 13 and by train to the away matches at 14!

It does just go to show the variety. I first started catching train with friends at about 11.... Started going loads of places on my own by 14 including to Hull, Derby and Burnley away....

But if you are not from that background it can be a daunting experience, some of my uni friends had never caught a train in their life before. (excluding LU) so taking them on a Northern Pacer to Glasshoughton was a bit of an experience!

 

[Greenback]

Some people never have a need or desire to catch a train. Some of my relatives haven't been on a train since the 1950's. and some have never travelled by train at all.

 

[kevinwaltets]

So did he have to buy a new ticket or was he penalty fared. You say that there was additional expense.

If this is the case and it was a genuine mistake surely there is a case for a refund.

What do others think?

 

[Mikey C]

Having 2 trains leaving within 4 minutes of each other on the same platform isn't helpful to the more casual rail user, especially as you get very little time to board at St Pancras, and have the hassle of queueing for ticket barriers; it's not as if you can access the platform well in advance, or they're marked 4a and 4b.

 

[bb21]

While the situation at St Pancras is far from ideal, I'm not sure what else can exactly be done to resolve this issue, because the pax in question simply did not walk far enough down the platform.

A sign on the platform showing where the front train started can work, but if you don't walk down the platform far enough you would not see it. Similarly a mobile electronic screen has the same problem unless you have a massive one that can be seen from a long way away, which in itself can be a nuisance considering available platform space at the station.

Floor stickers showing where the front train started could cause problems because the sets are not of fixed lengths. Stickers showing where to board for certain stations could also be problematic. For example, Beeston can accommodate the front six carriages of a train. So where do you place the stickers to accommodate situations where the train can be either ten cars or four cars? Similarly Long Eaton can only accommodate the front four coaches. How would you position the stickers considering that there is no overlap between these two formations?

Locking doors until departure of the front unit will also not work, as I believe the situation normally occurs with the xx26 Sheffield and the xx29 Nottingham. You cannot allow pax only 3 minutes to board a Meridian.

On weekdays I believe First Class hosts tend to stand by the door of their own carriage answering any question a pax may have. This is not possible at weekends due to a shortage of staff.

I think a compromise solution may be to indicate clearly on departure boards, "front 5 coaches in Platform 1 for xx26 Sheffield, rear 4 coaches in Platform 1 for xx29 Nottingham" and the message is repeated on both departure screens for the two trains, but again the main departure screens at St Pancras hardly have room for displaying additional information. The problem is further complicated by the fact that there is only one departure screen on the platform itself, so I suspect that it only shows information for the xx26 until it leaves, causing further confusion with those who require the xx29. If you are an infrequent traveller and did not notice that there are two trains in the same platform, you would get a bit nervous if your train is not shown, wouldn't you? Whoever thought the departure screens at St Pancras are fit for purpose requires shooting if I am honest. They only show a severely limited number of calling points in one go and are painstakingly slow to scroll through. They are also of a very awkward font. Whatever has happened to simple and clear displays.

Then again I would hope that an 18-year-old who is not familiar with the situation would either check information on the door panels, or if they weren't programmed properly, seek help/confirmation by asking fellow passengers whether he was on the correct train, or if he is not used to speaking to strangers, use common sense and walk to the very front carriage knowing that the front train is required. I have a sneaky suspicion that he may have just ignored what you told him, and boarded any carriage after seeing the departure screen on Platform 1 only showing one service.

So did he have to buy a new ticket or was he penalty fared. You say that there was additional expense.

If this is the case and it was a genuine mistake surely there is a case for a refund.

What do others think?

It is a new ticket, but discretion can be shown.

Having 2 trains leaving within 4 minutes of each other on the same platform isn't helpful to the more casual rail user, especially as you get very little time to board at St Pancras, and have the hassle of queueing for ticket barriers; it's not as if you can access the platform well in advance, or they're marked 4a and 4b.

A and B ends are marked at St Pancras.

 

[EM2]

• There is the a poster board in the middle of the concourse, with a diagram showing which are platforms a & b.
• The relevant platform is shown on the main departure board.
• There is a message on the bottom of the main departure board.
• The announcement states 'The 20:26 East Midlands Trains service to Derby is now boarding on platform 1a, this is the front five coaches on platform 1, furthest from the ticket barrier'. I know this, because I do the announcements!
• There are free-standing poster boards on the platform that state 'Rear train. Head further up the platform for front train' and 'Front train. Platform a beyond this point'. Or very similar, I can't remember the exact wording.
• There are electronic screens on each part of the platform that show the time, destination and calling pattern for the train.
• The silver help points along the platform are marked 1a and 1b
• There are electronic displays on the train which show the destination and calling pattern.

Not sure what else we can do!

 

[Greenback]

• There is the a poster board in the middle of the concourse, with a diagram showing which are platforms a & b.
• The relevant platform is shown on the main departure board.
• There is a message on the bottom of the main departure board.
• The announcement states 'The 20:26 East Midlands Trains service to Derby is now boarding on platform 1a, this is the front five coaches on platform 1, furthest from the ticket barrier'. I know this, because I do the announcements!
• There are free-standing poster boards on the platform that state 'Rear train. Head further up the platform for front train' and 'Front train. Platform a beyond this point'. Or very similar, I can't remember the exact wording.
• There are electronic screens on each part of the platform that show the time, destination and calling pattern for the train.
• The silver help points along the platform are marked 1a and 1b
• There are electronic displays on the train which show the destination and calling pattern.

Not sure what else we can do!

Well, that does seem pretty comprehensive. I'm not very familiar with St Pancras EMT!

In light of this, dare I suggest that a combination of excitement, alcohol, and uncle's advice may have made the OP's nephew overconfident enough not to have checked the information that was available?

 

[Oswyntail]

• There is the a poster board in the middle of the concourse, with a diagram showing which are platforms a & b.
• The relevant platform is shown on the main departure board.
• There is a message on the bottom of the main departure board.
• The announcement states 'The 20:26 East Midlands Trains service to Derby is now boarding on platform 1a, this is the front five coaches on platform 1, furthest from the ticket barrier'. I know this, because I do the announcements!
• There are free-standing poster boards on the platform that state 'Rear train. Head further up the platform for front train' and 'Front train. Platform a beyond this point'. Or very similar, I can't remember the exact wording.
• There are electronic screens on each part of the platform that show the time, destination and calling pattern for the train.
• The silver help points along the platform are marked 1a and 1b
• There are electronic displays on the train which show the destination and calling pattern.

Not sure what else we can do!

This is very good - and much better than anything at Leeds:roll:. But, like most of the comments on this thread, it is comprehensible to those who understand it, or know what to look for. For instance: saying the train is the "front 5" coaches on a platform does not really help unless you know how many are in the rear train; platform splitting signs may seem like others of the technical sort that clutter stations (and everywhere these days); unless prompted, would anyone instinctively know to look at the side of the train for travel information; similarly, how would anyone instinctively know that the slopey bits are where one train ends and another starts?
A station can be a busy and bewildering place, even to experienced travellers. To someone who is there alone for the first time, anxious to catch the right train but under time pressure, it can create sensory overload. Perhaps part of the design process of signage, announcements etc should be to take such travel virgins and see what they understand by everything. It could be an eye-opener.

 

[Mikey C]

A and B ends are marked at St Pancras.

I must have missed that! In my defence I'm more familiar with split platforms on a through line, where you join the platform in the middle, rather than having everyone entering from the end, as it's more intuitive when you wait on the platform, rather than waiting in the concourse then having to rush for your train.