Confusion At St Pancras

[Lockwood]

Maybe calling them far and near rather than front and back might help?

Near?
Nearest to where I'm stood on the concourse, or nearest to my destination?

 

[sarahj]

At Brighton we have massive big electronic signs on the platform saying front train and a arrow. The autos also say, and at other stations such as victoria, eg the front 4 coaches furthest from the ticket barrier. Yet you still see passengers trying to open the doors on locked trains, or boarding the wrong one.

I've also had this conversation more than one.
Me, standing next to open door at coach 7.
pass "I need the front 4 coaches, i'm going to worthing"
Me: " keep walking, you see that that green fire exit sign?"
Pass "yes"
Me: "any coach after you pass that green sign"
Pass, "thanx"

Pass then walks one coach down and boards.

I've even had chats with one that knew they wanted to be in either coaches 1,2,3 or 4, knew that they had walked from 6, and knew that they were now in coach 7, but could not work out where 1,2,3 and 4 might be.:roll:


But we are now in a world where people turn down a railway track, or drive into a river cause thats what the sat nav said. Growing up unable to read maps of follow signs since the sat nav knows the way. Unless you take them by the hand and place them in a seat in the correct coach, or train, they are unable to work it out. And no matter how many signs, labels, announcements, you put up, or make, will make not one jot of difference.

 

[talltim]

As far as my sister and her husband are concerned, the ability to navigate EMT St Pancras is rather low down on the list of priorities for their son and his "life skills" Are you arguing that shouldn't be the case?

Depends how much spare money they have

 

[Yew]

A person or two on the platform would have sorted it..

 

[anti-pacer]

As a teenager I used the train daily from Colne to Blackburn to get to school, back when Pacers were brand new and I actually liked them!

I also used to use the train to travel to see relatives on frequent occasions, normally after school on a Friday. This was either from Preston to London, or Blackburn to Bradford. I think I was 14 when I did my first solo London trip.

Just over a year later, when the family and I were above to move to Nottingham, I traveled solo from Keighley to Nottingham by train for an interview, changing at Leeds, Sheffield, and because of a problem, Derby.

None of this ever phased me, and I have a very good sense of direction and have always found using our rail system incredibly easy. My other half comments whenever we go to London that I never stop and look what line we need on the tube, I just walk there without even looking at signs. In fairness, I do have a quick look at where we need to go but only as much as looking which escalator is for the line we need.

To me, and I expect the majority of you, getting about by rail is second nature and we do so with ease, but for a multitude of reasons, not everyone finds it easy to locate which train they need, which platform they need, how to change trains, etc.

My partner, bless her, travels home by train from Leeds to Wakefield (she gets the bus TO work) but if that London train at her time of departure ever changes platform, I get a phone call from her in mild panic. She's an intelligent girl but ask her to travel from, say, Wakefield to Worthing, via London and its Underground, and she wouldn't have a clue.

When things like Richmond's story happen, I can understand how people could be confused by it. His nephew sounds a bright lad and had the confidence to travel down to London at what is still a young age, but yet made an easy and understandable mistake. Easily done I guess. Not everyone has the knowledge we do, and I bet half of these people who can't use our trains without mild panic could probably excel us all in other areas.

 

[HowardGWR]

The main evidence, m'lud, is the notorious level of tight prescription in all aspects of the railway that the DfT operated at the time.

A bit of digging finds that at the time the rebuild was finally signed off in 2001after several changes of design, St Pancras was owned by LCR which was also a state owned business - that in itself indicates that all aspects of the project would have been approved at Government level, especially when you consider the cost of it.

Now, if the sign off was before 8th June 2001 the SoST* was John Prescott; after that date it was Stephen Byers.

Does anyone know the actual date of the sign off?


*To use the present title; the title was slightly different in 2001.

I'd be amazed, flabbergasted, if either gent would have had the faintest notion of the design particulars of the new St Pancras. Not only that, but was not the station in the ownership of Railtrack at the time? Incidentally, who owns St P now, is it NR, or does E* have a slice?

 

[EM2]

It's owned by HS1 and managed by Network Rail (High Speed).

 

[transmanche]

Not only that, but was not the station in the ownership of Railtrack at the time? Incidentally, who owns St P now, is it NR, or does E* have a slice?

London & Continental Railways. AFAIK, they've owned it since privatisation.

Of course, the ownership of L&CR has changed during that time - it's been controlled by DfT since 2009(?).

 

[EM2]

London & Continental Railways. AFAIK, they've owned it since privatisation.

Of course, the ownership of L&CR has changed during that time - it's been controlled by DfT since 2009(?).

Er, no.
http://www.lcrhq.co.uk/about-lcr/

In 2010, LCR sold HS1 with its 30 year concession for the track and stations to a consortium comprising Borealis Infrastructure and the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan for £2.1 billion.

http://highspeed1.co.uk/Who-we-are

HS1 Ltd is the owner of the stations along the route, including the magnificently refurbished St Pancras International.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan? Blimey, they're ambitious over there.

 

[rick9525]

It happens quite a bit at Piccadilly where a Hull Train will come in to a platform where there is a Northern Rail Pacer or 323 to Hadfield already sat waiting with passengers boarding. The TV on the platform can only show 1 departure at a time so people naturally get on the first train even it it says "front train" and the train they pick says Northern Rail on the side and is a pacer or an electric 323. Guards have got wise so normally make a few announcements. :roll:

 

[Chapeltom]

It happens quite a bit at Piccadilly where a Hull Train will come in to a platform where there is a Northern Rail Pacer or 323 to Hadfield already sat waiting with passengers boarding. The TV on the platform can only show 1 departure at a time so people naturally get on the first train even it it says "front train" and the train they pick says Northern Rail on the side and is a pacer or an electric 323. Guards have got wise so normally make a few announcements. :roll:

I think it hilarious when waiting for the :45 stopper to Chinley to depart (bound for Sheffield) and people get on thinking its the Hull train. You'd think the clue would be in the fact the :45 is almost certainly a pacer, and says Northern on the outside. Seen more than a few get on the pacer, seen people get as far as Bredbury before realising and often with advances :roll: and the worse bit is, the guard's ALWAYS announce its the Sheffield stopper not going to Huddersfield etc stations for Hull. Some people just cannot be helped.

 

[talltim]

I don't think the writing in the side does much. My colleague at SYPTE thought recently that XC was still Virgin, and she commutes by (Northern) train every day

 

[Oswyntail]

I think it hilarious....You'd think the clue would be in the fact the :45 is almost certainly a pacer, and says Northern on the outside......

Yes, these people just crack you up. Fancy not knowing the difference between two train types or appreciating which company runs which trains!:roll: Or not quite understanding a mumbled announcement over a cracked tannoy made at just the moment the train next door starts up!
Or perhaps this sort of thing, which we hear about on here quite frequently, indicates a weakness in the service provision, that the operating companies need to address. Perhaps starting by asking passengers what the real problems are.

 

[Bungle73]

I don't see what's wrong with the "front/rear" description. The "front" of the train is obviously the bit facing the direction of travel (which obviously isn't into the concourse of a terminus station is it), where else would it be? :?

Millions of people seem to manage OK with that description every day.

London & Continental Railways. AFAIK, they've owned it since privatisation.

Of course, the ownership of L&CR has changed during that time - it's been controlled by DfT since 2009(?).

They hadn't decided to run Eurostars out of St. Pancras, and in fact it wasn't even in the picture, at the time of privatisation, had they?

 

[transmanche]

I think it hilarious when waiting for the :45 stopper to Chinley to depart (bound for Sheffield) and people get on thinking its the Hull train. You'd think the clue would be in the fact the :45 is almost certainly a pacer, and says Northern on the outside.

Of course Pacers never operate long distance journeys. And having a train in a different TOC's livery has never happened.

:roll:

 

[LowLevel]

Having been out road learning on various Northern Pacers of late I have to say the PA is the worst I've come across - completely incomprehensible in several cases. At one point I could hear noises coming from it and the fact we hadn't departed several minutes after time indicated it was an explanation and apology - however I certainly couldn't translate it any further.

 

[Lockwood]

I don't think the writing in the side does much.

Those off-white and green FCC trains that you see at St Pancakes don't help much with "Go with the writing" or "Go with the colour"

 

[alex17595]

Those off-white and green FCC trains that you see at St Pancakes don't help much with "Go with the writing" or "Go with the colour"

Even I was confused when a Southern branded train with 'first capital connect' written on the side pulled in to Gatwick Airport!

 

[Hairy Bear]

What cretin decided that 4 platforms - with no possibility of ever adding more - was the ideal configuration for the new St Pancras? Talk about future proof....
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

-Totally agree, we had access to 6 platforms in the old shed , as i've said before we got the bum end of the deal in the new station.

Don't mean to come across as rude, but what about the destination display at the end of each Class 222 unit? I think there is also a panel near to each door which displays the destination but can't find a clear picture to confirm if that's the case, can anyone who has travelled on a Class 222 confirm what that panel is?

-Yep it contains the destination of the train and calling points Not that anybody bothers looking at them.

Surely all EMT need to do is stick a couple of staff members on the platform and direct people onwards to the right train. Not necessarily by the gateline but actually near the train in question.

-Don't be ridiculous, that costs money !!. Help the passengers ,, no ,your on your own these days.

Before this was brought in they should have increased the platform sineage and destination displays on each platform..but all they did was make up 2 free standing signs saying platform 1a/1b starts/ends here. Woefully inadequate, we miscarry loads every day now.

 

[Bald Rick]

Those off-white and green FCC trains that you see at St Pancakes don't help much with "Go with the writing" or "Go with the colour"

Particularly when one pulls in on a Sevenoaks service, and has a big red sign on the side that says 'Croydon'. Or, even more adventurously, 'Coquelles'.

 

[edwin_m]

I just noticed today that there is a newish display on each platform showing the train and its calling points in a vertical format. This stands on the platform and is both more conspicuous and able to display more information than the older overhead display. It is positioned at the length of a five-car Meridian from the buffer stops and although I wasn't able to confirm it today I expect it would display information relating to the front train when there were two in the same platform.

 

[JB_B]

At Brighton we have massive big electronic signs on the platform saying front train and a arrow. The autos also say, and at other stations such as victoria, eg the front 4 coaches furthest from the ticket barrier. Yet you still see passengers trying to open the doors on locked trains, or boarding the wrong one.

You're absolutely right, Sarahj : "massive big electronic signs" is an excellent description for the front-train signs Brighton. As BB21 has pointed out, a flipboard a half-way down the platform might be no good but at Brighton the signs are very clearly visible even 8 cars from the gateline.

In fact, for anyone who knows what to look for, they're almost like a cartoon-neon sign saying "Get *this* train not that train, you idiot!".

The problem (which is also a problem lots of other contexts) is that humans often don't see what's in front of their eyes unless they're primed to do so - there's a huge literature on this - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inattentional_blindness

From a Rail Industry point of view (where inexperienced travellers are people you don't want to lose) what you really need is something which cuts through and grabs peoples attention. There is no perfect solution but I think what you're doing: a human voice (not an auto-announcer) making it clear where the train is going and also where it's *not* going is probably one of the most effective things that can be done (that, and having a human being around to point the lost in the right direction.) Southern staff are always really good on this even thought it must sometimes seem like a thankless task.

 

[Chapeltom]

Yes, these people just crack you up. Fancy not knowing the difference between two train types or appreciating which company runs which trains!:roll: Or not quite understanding a mumbled announcement over a cracked tannoy made at just the moment the train next door starts up!
Or perhaps this sort of thing, which we hear about on here quite frequently, indicates a weakness in the service provision, that the operating companies need to address. Perhaps starting by asking passengers what the real problems are.

They do actually, I think its very amusing indeed and I will tell you why. Especially when announcements are clear (the guard often coming down the train before hand to say its the Sheffield train) and as frequently made as they are to avoid this kind of confusion. Front train only generally means just that as is announced and displayed on the departure boards. If someone is so stupid as to not listen to 'This train is for Sheffield, this is the 'xx:45 to Sheffield calling at...' and the departure boards also say the Hull train is the front train only. I have little or no sympathy if someone cannot distinguish between the front train and back train, with announcements to aid.

I'm afraid having caught the :45 on more times than I care to remember, I have seen people sit down on the pacer even after multiple, clear announcements and still get so far into the journey before realising. If someone asks is the Leeds train or whatever before departure, I'll generally see them right, no issues with people double checking at all, we have places to go of course.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course Pacers never operate long distance journeys. And having a train in a different TOC's livery has never happened.

:roll:

:roll:

I do not see the difficulty in distinguishing between the front train and back train, the front train is the xx:42 to Hull and will be leaving first, the rear train is a clapped out Northern unit in different colours and will be leaving second. Multiple announcements are made to the effect the rear train is for Sheffield and is not going to stations towards Hull.


I wish people would really stop attempting to defend the undefendable. If doesn't matter how clear it is made which train is which, some people will find a way not to board the correct train.

 

[455driver]

Its all very well when you know what you are looking for but if its your first time travelling it is very easy to make a rash/ illogical decision simply because your brain is being bombarded with more new information than it can deal with. Okay we all know that the best thing to do is ask somebody in uniform or sit down and think about it but in the heat of the moment it is easy to take the easy but incorrect course of action.

 

[Chapeltom]

Its all very well when you know what you are looking for but if its your first time travelling it is very easy to make a rash/ illogical decision simply because your brain is being bombarded with more new information than it can deal with. Okay we all know that the best thing to do is ask somebody in uniform or sit down and think about it but in the heat of the moment it is easy to take the easy but incorrect course of action.

I go abroad on frequent European Football Weekends, and often have to use public transport, watch a sporting fixture etc. There is one thing that has never failed me if I am unsure especially abroad, it is quite simple actually, its called asking someone. I will always help someone who asks for information, doesn't bother me, share the knowledge. There are usually enough people at Manchester Picc to 'ask', yet I have witnessed some people 'ask' and still board the wrong train.

I'm not trying to be harsh with anyone but, usually in most circumstances the help is there is people need it and yet some people still manage to make a mistake. I have every sympathy where a mistake is made when adequate information isn't provided as there are times where the railway does fail the passenger on the information front, even frequent travellers like myself who have a very good knowledge of the system can get caught out.

 

[jon0844]

we all know that the best thing to do is ask somebody in uniform or sit down and think about it but in the heat of the moment it is easy to take the easy but incorrect course of action.

Very true.

But if someone does ask, chances are some of them will be met by someone who will be quite patronising because it's all on the board/sign/poster, and give some sort of sarcastic answer.. and it will end up on a RailChat thread about dumb passengers asking stupid questions!

If you're uncomfortable with a situation (such as being confused about where to go, which I can honestly say has happened many times over the years when travelling abroad, or at airports etc) then you may well miss obvious things.

But once you're more relaxed and in your comfort zone (and I'd say that means pretty much all of London transport) then you can easily take in signs, posters, advertisements and spot interesting little things that you can later mention on a forum!

Ever since I first visited the new St Pancras on the Eurostar testing day, I always said I disliked those blue screens and the way they convey information. However, I've not actually travelled a single time on an EMT service since the station was done - so I've never seen how it's done.

I've certainly seen how it's done at Liverpool Street many times over the last 20 years or so, and how it's done at King's Cross (which is basically locking out the rear train and not even advertising it until the service in front has gone - which does mean passengers not having that long to board, which is clearly a problem for an Intercity-style service).

 

[LBSCR Times]

You're absolutely right, Sarahj : "massive big electronic signs" is an excellent description for the front-train signs Brighton. As BB21 has pointed out, a flipboard a half-way down the platform might be no good but at Brighton the signs are very clearly visible even 8 cars from the gateline.

In fact, for anyone who knows what to look for, they're almost like a cartoon-neon sign saying "Get *this* train not that train, you idiot!".

The problem (which is also a problem lots of other contexts) is that humans often don't see what's in front of their eyes unless they're primed to do so - there's a huge literature on this - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inattentional_blindness

From a Rail Industry point of view (where inexperienced travellers are people you don't want to lose) what you really need is something which cuts through and grabs peoples attention. There is no perfect solution but I think what you're doing: a human voice (not an auto-announcer) making it clear where the train is going and also where it's *not* going is probably one of the most effective things that can be done (that, and having a human being around to point the lost in the right direction.) Southern staff are always really good on this even thought it must sometimes seem like a thankless task.

Yes, and still they ignore the signs, because if they cannot count.....
A 12 car train in one of the platforms, with the front 4 going out, means they count the first 4 from the stops end.......!!
At least with FCC services (and Southern's 313 units), the doors are usually locked out of use.

 

[yorkie]

He had to buy new tickets but was advised in the strongest possible terms to appeal.

I reckon we have a good case for getting this money refunded, please PM me to make arrangements.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Its all very well when you know what you are looking for but if its your first time travelling it is very easy to make a rash/ illogical decision simply because your brain is being bombarded with more new information than it can deal with.

I remember my ex getting on the wrong train at Carlisle many years ago because the Leeds train and the Newcastle train were going from the same platform. She missed the S&C train and four hours it was for the next one. Very easily done.

I do not see the difficulty in distinguishing between the front train and back train

I don't see what's wrong with the "front/rear" description. The "front" of the train is obviously the bit facing the direction of travel (which obviously isn't into the concourse of a terminus station is it), where else would it be?

I'm standing at the buffer stops. The back train is surely the one furthest from me, it's behind another train, which makes the one in front of me the front train. I know that's not what they mean, they're referring to direction of travel, but you have to agree it is ambiguous.

London Midland have the pointy signs as well as the concourse monitors highlighting "furthest from the concourse". This is what should happen at St Pancras, and doesn't.

FCC do it very well too. In terminal stations they leave the second train locked until the first one has left. On the Thameslink core they have signs saying where a four-coach or an 8-coach train ends.