Confusing service information on platforms

[Bald Rick]

Haha, fascinating! It's hard to believe, that after all of that, they still came up with what I think was the wrong solution

All I can say is that the research done was clear that the way it is now presented was preferred by a clear majority of those surveyed etc., and the specialists in wayfinding etc also agreed. What that proved to me was that

a) peoples brains are wired in different ways when it comes to reading this sort of information, and,
b) most people are wrong!

Interestingly I never, ever, have difficulty in finding my way in a new station / airport / shopping centre or even an unfamiliar city, whereas I know many people do. Yet this still causes me to have to pause, think and double check.

Theres a newish problem too. When there’s disruption and two trains are coming in on minimum headway, both the first and second trains will be shown as “Due” (meaning “imminently arriving”) - which leaves intending passengers who don’t know the system a little perplexed. This has unfortunately been exacerbated by the ATO, at StPancras northbound at least. The display switches to ‘Arrived’ around 20(?) seconds after it hits the track circuit berth immediately to the south of the station, and stays that way until the train has fully cleared the northernmost track circuit in the platform. With manual driving this isn’t an issue, as a train will only occupy the previous berth track circuit when the previous train has left the platform, and the manually driven train takes a little while to get in. However with ATO, the train can (and does) get closer to the one in front, and of course comes in quicker. I regularly see the second train marked as ‘arrived’ when the first train is still only halfway out of the platform, and we therefore have two shown as arrived, which can cause further confusion.

 

[pelli]

At Blackfriars, there is an island platform with a pillar in the middle, on which two screens are mounted side-by-side. To see which train is due to the right, you have to read the left screen. To see which train is due to the left, you have to go find a different screen somewhere else

(Image screencapped from https://youtu.be/YmtqVBJSuiI?t=127.)

One benefit of a consistent left-to-right arrangement is that one can easily show messages split between the two screens consistently (such as urgent emergency or disruption information, or "full-page" ads!), which wouldn't work if all screens closest to the train are set up to show the same thing and all screens farthest away to show another.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Some people will always misunderstand, even when only one train is displayed.

Many years ago, on the Southern, I had to deal with a situation that had arisen at Eastleigh:

Passenger arrives at booking office and asks for single to Southampton Airport (a couple of minutes away). Booking clerk sells ticket and helpfully says, "Next train from Platform 2".

Passenger goes to ticket barrier. Ticket barrier attendant helpfully says, "Next train from Platform 2".

Passenger goes to Platform 2 where two-line Solari indicator displays, "NEXT TRAIN Calling at Southampton Airport..." (It was the '92' head code semi-fast.)

Passenger hears automated announcement saying, "The next train from Platform 2 is for Southampton Airport..."

Train arrives and automated announcement plays saying, "The train now arrived at this platform is for Southampton Airport..."

(Passenger remains on platform and does not attempt to join train. Train departs. Solari indicator flips over for subsequent service - a '93' head code local that misses out Southampton Airport and is next stop Swaythling.)

Passenger realises that they have missed their flight, ruined their holiday and complains bitterly to Station Manager that BR will have to pay for another one. "But I thought that 'Next train' meant the second train, not the first one!"

 

[Peter Sarf]

I find myself almost making this mistake and see other passengers getting tangled up.

Best example is Blackfriars Northbound platform looking North and the left screen is often perceived as pertaining to the adjacent terminating platform. I have seen people scurrying across to what is usually the Sevenoaks train when they actually wanted a Cambridge/Peterborough etc. I have had trouble finding the actual screen for the terminating platform as it seems to get obscured.

But I see people also get mixed up over the one platform at Farringdon or London Bridge.

Sometimes I swear that the 1st and 2nd trains have switched order and I am never sure if it was because the info was misread at first.

It would be better to only have the detailed information for the incoming service, with the rest as a list

That is a possibility of course. Something to make the 2nd and subsequent trains look different.

You're welcome!!!


Haha, fascinating! It's hard to believe, that after all of that, they still came up with what I think was the wrong solution.


Glad it's not only me!


Alas...


The whole "we read left to write" is largely a red herring. If we are talking about a book, yes, it's true. In all other instances, we read left to right unless there are markers, call to actions, etc that point us in different directions. Being two separate monitors is one of these markers and one of these screens being next to a train track is another, if you add those two markers together, I think you have more than enough cues to ignore "read left to right"

So true. This left to right rule/convention/habit only applies to WITHIN the individual screen.

A first hand account of the process was very interesting (it has been supplied on other threads as well by the very helpful poster). However the fact that the decision in the end went the other way (after consulting a very wide body of opinion as well) also indicates that the overall consensus was that the way it is setup was the better option.

I will take this comment onboard.

I think that just because a majority settle on one thing does not mean a minority can be instantly ignored. I think there is significant enough cause for confusion that in this case a better solution needed arriving at. Also sitting down and thinking long and hard about the logic of something will not get you to the same conclusion as someone in more of a hurry (for example on a platform for five minutes with distractions).

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So a different layout for the second train would help. But I think the convention of first train at the top of the list is better and should have been stuck with - so why did we have two screens next to each other for one platform instead of one above the other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2023 ==

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EDIT :-

At Blackfriars, there is an island platform with a pillar in the middle, on which two screens are mounted side-by-side. To see which train is due to the right, you have to read the left screen. To see which train is due to the left, you have to go find a different screen somewhere else
View attachment 128584
(Image screencapped from https://youtu.be/YmtqVBJSuiI?t=127.)

One benefit of a consistent left-to-right arrangement is that one can easily show messages split between the two screens consistently (such as urgent emergency or disruption information, or "full-page" ads!), which wouldn't work if all screens closest to the train are set up to show the same thing and all screens farthest away to show another.

You just beat me to it - this is exactly what I was talking about. I have stopped people getting on the wrong train to the left. They think I must be wrong and its hard to find the correct information to prove it to them.

 

[zwk500]

At Blackfriars, there is an island platform with a pillar in the middle, on which two screens are mounted side-by-side. To see which train is due to the right, you have to read the left screen. To see which train is due to the left, you have to go find a different screen somewhere else

This does have a prominent 'platform 2' sign attached but could still be better by offsetting the display to be clearly on the Platform 2 side.

I think that just because a majority settle on one thing does not mean a minority can be instantly ignored. I think there is significant enough cause for confusion that in this case a better solution needed arriving at. Also sitting down and thinking long and hard about the logic of something will not get you to the same conclusion as someone in more of a hurry (for example on a platform for five minutes with distractions).

By all accounts they weren't instantly ignored - they were considered very carefully before deciding to go the other way. I think the current layout of screens with the addition of big 'Next Train' labels, but other than that you will always be going against somebody whichever way round the screens were.
Importantly - if they had gone the other way, I wouldn't be campaigning for them to switch the screens to left-to-right. That's how tight I feel the difference is for me.

So a different layout for the second train would help. But I think the convention of first train at the top of the list is better and should have been stuck with - so why did we have two screens next to each other for one platform instead of one above the other.

Because of the long lists of stations on Thameslink trains, which are more readable and quicker to read in portrait. If they were presented in a comma separated list trying to identify a station in the middle of the list would be difficult when you only have a couple of minutes between trains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This does have a prominent 'platform 2' sign attached but could still be better by offsetting the display to be clearly on the Platform 2 side.

By all accounts they weren't instantly ignored - they were considered very carefully before deciding to go the other way. I think the current layout of screens with the addition of big 'Next Train' labels, but other than that you will always be going against somebody whichever way round the screens were.
Importantly - if they had gone the other way, I wouldn't be campaigning for them to switch the screens to left-to-right. That's how tight I feel the difference is for me.

Because of the long lists of stations on Thameslink trains, which are more readable and quicker to read in portrait. If they were presented in a comma separated list trying to identify a station in the middle of the list would be difficult when you only have a couple of minutes between trains.

Could have the first train and list of its calling points as two columns side by side on the top horizontal screen. With the horizontal screen below having left half as 2nd train + calling points and right half/column as 3rd and subsequent trains.

 

[zwk500]

Could have the first train and list of its calling points as two columns side by side on the top horizontal screen. With the horizontal screen below having left half as 2nd train + calling points and right half/column as 3rd and subsequent trains.

But then you can only display half the calling points of the first train as you can now. And it already requires 2 pages for some calling patterns, even from the core. So you'd need 3 or 4 pages, making it harder for people to find their stop.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sometimes I swear that the 1st and 2nd trains have switched order and I am never sure if it was because the info was misread at first.

I was going to mention Blackfriars and the platform 3 problem.

Blackfriars northbound does have trains switcheroo - they are listed in order of expected arrival by their actual running. If, say, the 1752 to Cambridge is running 3 late having departed London Bridge, but the 1754 to St Albans is on time, then the latter will show as ‘First Train’. But if the Core South signaller (correctly) puts the Cambridge train in front at Blackfriars Jn, the screens will switch to the Cambridge being ‘First train’ when it hits the track circuit on entering the platform.

More than once I have had to help the platform staff in such matters

 

[Peter Sarf]

But then you can only display half the calling points of the first train as you can now. And it already requires 2 pages for some calling patterns, even from the core. So you'd need 3 or 4 pages, making it harder for people to find their stop.

The screen is still the same surface area. The calling points could be in two columns rather than one if the whole screen is rotated by 90 degrees.

I was going to mention Blackfriars and the platform 3 problem.

Blackfriars northbound does have trains switcheroo - they are listed in order of expected arrival by their actual running. If, say, the 1752 to Cambridge is running 3 late having departed London Bridge, but the 1754 to St Albans is on time, then the latter will show as ‘First Train’. But if the Core South signaller (correctly) puts the Cambridge train in front at Blackfriars Jn, the screens will switch to the Cambridge being ‘First train’ when it hits the track circuit on entering the platform.

More than once I have had to help the platform staff in such matters

I have assumed that to be the cause Southbound as well depending on what order trains present at the junction just North of StPancras. Certainly fallen for it at StPancras.

 

[800001]

Some people will always misunderstand, even when only one train is displayed.

Many years ago, on the Southern, I had to deal with a situation that had arisen at Eastleigh:

Passenger arrives at booking office and asks for single to Southampton Airport (a couple of minutes away). Booking clerk sells ticket and helpfully says, "Next train from Platform 2".

Passenger goes to ticket barrier. Ticket barrier attendant helpfully says, "Next train from Platform 2".

Passenger goes to Platform 2 where two-line Solari indicator displays, "NEXT TRAIN Calling at Southampton Airport..." (It was the '92' head code semi-fast.)

Passenger hears automated announcement saying, "The next train from Platform 2 is for Southampton Airport..."

Train arrives and automated announcement plays saying, "The train now arrived at this platform is for Southampton Airport..."

(Passenger remains on platform and does not attempt to join train. Train departs. Solari indicator flips over for subsequent service - a '93' head code local that misses out Southampton Airport and is next stop Swaythling.)

Passenger realises that they have missed their flight, ruined their holiday and complains bitterly to Station Manager that BR will have to pay for another one. "But I thought that 'Next train' meant the second train, not the first one!"

Surely if missed train, you would get a taxi the very short distance to the airport? Can’t see how missing one train there would cause someone to miss a flight?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Surely if missed train, you would get a taxi the very short distance to the airport? Can’t see how missing one train there would cause someone to miss a flight?

My point was more about how intending passengers can 'mis-perceive' information via multiple sensory channels and human interactions rather than the case itself. The problem started to spiral out of control when passenger became very distressed, spent time complaining and explaining and so on.

Back in those lazy days Southampton Airport was renowned for being the world's shortest and quickest rail > air transfer. Southbound you could literally be in the terminal building within one minute of stepping off a train if you were in the right carriage. And before all the modern security malarkey you could check in for a Channel Islands flight with no passport control, etc. in another couple of minutes. People could cut it very fine. Times change.

 

[edwin_m]

To my mind this sort of problem could be addressed by emphasising the first train using a different colour scheme. Although the second and later trains are displayed in a shortened format, at a glance it's sufficiently similar to the first train for confusion to arise. Most displays don't have this sort of problem because the second and subsequent trains are presented very differently, usually as a scrolling list, or given equal prominence but presented in order from the top down (which for an overhead sign means the first train is furthest from the train itself...). I agree the frequency and complexity of the Thameslink service means these normal solutions would be inadequate here.

And use terminology "First Train" not "Next Train"!

 

[Hadders]

I’ve been waiting for this thread for 8 years.



There was much argument about this configuration, ie whether people read left to right or expect the first train to be nearest the platform edge. There was some survey work done - focus groups, actual passengers, and even psychological experts were engaged. This was the result.

As it happens I was arguing strongly for ‘nearest the platform’; and I also thought that ‘First train’ should be a permanent printed sign on the top of the monitor. I lost that argument!

My view is that first train should be nearest the platform edge. Take the northbound Thameslink platform as an example:

Stand on the platform looking southbound and the first train is shown on the screen nearest the platform edge
Turn around and look northbound and the second train is shown on the screen nearest to the platform edge

Maybe it's hopw I'm wired but that seems confusing to me. I wonder if the research done with passengers was done on the platforms in 'real' conditions or by showing pictures on a computer screen...

Incidentally on a semi-related topic is there any progress on replacing the main departure screens at St Pancras, they're an absolute disgrace. Maybe they could move the old ones from Euston

 

[Railcar]

At London Bridge, when coming up the escalator to Platform 5 (Thameslink Northbound), only the RH screen of two is visible (the second train). Only when one gets to the platform can the '1st Train' screen be seen.

While we're talking about misleading information, Thameslink trains in the Core have this announcement as the train is drawing into a platform " The doors will open automatically at the next station" i.e. the 'next station' is the one at which the train is arriving!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Passenger realises that they have missed their flight, ruined their holiday and complains bitterly to Station Manager that BR will have to pay for another one. "But I thought that 'Next train' meant the second train, not the first one!"

Funnily enough this is a common argument with my other half when giving directions - "take the next left" she then says "this one or the next one". To me the next one is just that. However, next weekend is the weekend after this week. English language for you eh.

"The next train on platform x is" then "Train now arriving on" or "Train now standing on" works better. As long as Next Train is used a moderate time before it arrives.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Funnily enough this is a common argument with my other half when giving directions - "take the next left" she then says "this one or the next one". To me the next one is just that. However, next weekend is the weekend after this week. English language for you eh.

"The next train on platform x is" then "Train now arriving on" or "Train now standing on" works better. As long as Next Train is used a moderate time before it arrives.

I suppose next means nothing unless it is qualified as to what "next" is in relation to. Seems easier to say first train. I have wondered what next train could be interpreted to mean if the train is already sat at the platform.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I suppose next means nothing unless it is qualified as to what "next" is in relation to. Seems easier to say first train. I have wondered what next train could be interpreted to mean if the train is already sat at the platform.

If there's a train in the platform already, next would often be understood to mean to train after the one already at the station.

Can be annoying if you have some standing time at a station and the auto announcer says next train on platform x is the train already there. So many passengers just standing there waiting, then about a minute before departure they ask if this is said train.

 

[APT618S]

There could be confusion at Sheffield as there seems to be a problem with the displays on P2 as some trains are listed as 2 or 2A or 2B which seems to confuse the software. On more than one occasion recently the display right next to the 1701 to St Pancras displays that it is the 1711 to Cleethorpes because "technically" the the 1701 goes from P2 and the 1711 is the next from 2A.

 

[sheff1]

I have boarded the wrong Thameslink train at St Pancras for exactly the same reason. No problem getting off at Farringdon to change, of course - would have been more of an issue going north.

Despite that earlier experience, I was still about to board the wrong train at STP again the other day but the PA announcement alerted me. Clearly my brain expects the board nearest the track to show the train which is in (or about to enter) the platform.

 

[Bantamzen]

Do you think it's possible that "overall concensus" is fallible?

I do. I see it all the time. In fact, the argument from popularity is rarely the right one

If the solution was derived by asking the end users how they would expect the information to be displayed, I'd say that was probably the correct answer. It won't suit everyone of course, we are all different, but most common, or garden rail users will apparently read screens from left to right hence the design. And has been noted, those displays clearly indicate which is the 1st and which is the 2nd services due.

 

[dosxuk]

I have to say, I'm very surprised at the number of people who seem to be saying that they would start on the right hand screen here

but start on the left hand column here

That seems to be implying that they would scan like this for the first screen set up

and like this for the second

 

[superkopite]

If the solution was derived by asking the end users how they would expect the information to be displayed, I'd say that was probably the correct answer.

I think it is very much dependent on how they asked the question. I doubt it was standing on a platform with boards in situ. I think thatnis the only accurate way to answer this question. Asking in a classroom environment will not lead to answers that take into account environmental conditions

 

[AnyFile]

I should actually say that this screen are confusing. They refer to different trains but they are very different (and on the right side there are also some more trains on the bottom).

And also the time on withe background at the bottom of the left part is rather confusing (I should assume that it show the current time, but it is a bit weird).

I will usually start from the left side (as I usually start from the left when I read), but in this specific case I will probably note the graphics "map" of the station. In particular the blue/cyan is not more eye-catching than the white and the yellow. It is exactly the opposite. Also the word Due is difficult to spot. It it is closer to "2nd train" that to "1st train" or "19:30 Horsham" (and in any case having it on the same of "1st train" and not the line with the time and the destination is a bit confusing)

It may be that when this system was create the two screen was one above the other. In this case it would be a bit better

 

[superkopite]

I have to say, I'm very surprised at the number of people who seem to be saying that they would start on the right hand screen here

but start on the left hand column here

That seems to be implying that they would scan like this for the first screen set up

and like this for the second

The thing is, I don't see the columns. My eyes are naturally drawn to the destination and calling points that are trackside. Which ironically would be correct I were standing on the opposite side of the boards

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have to say, I'm very surprised at the number of people who seem to be saying that they would start on the right hand screen here

but start on the left hand column here

That seems to be implying that they would scan like this for the first screen set up

and like this for the second

This is very much what I feel happens. In the case of the two screens you have merged/edited into one screen my eye falls naturally to the top left. But in the case of the two screens side by side my eye falls to the top left of the right hand screen. Presumably because it is nearest to the train but actually maybe despite that ?..

I think it is very much dependent on how they asked the question. I doubt it was standing on a platform with boards in situ. I think thatnis the only accurate way to answer this question. Asking in a classroom environment will not lead to answers that take into account environmental conditions

I agree. Often these things are tried out in a way that does not represent the reality. No good asking people to carefully analyse what they find easiest. The need is to see how peoples eyes scan as they walk onto the platform and glance up.

Overall I do wonder if the blue font used to denote the 1st / 2nd trains is not very visible. Its the white that draws me.

On another point I find the use of "due" and how many minutes away annoys me. I prefer to know the actual expected time of arrival at the platform. Perhaps I am too used to doing mental arithmetic !.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think it is very much dependent on how they asked the question. I doubt it was standing on a platform with boards in situ. I think thatnis the only accurate way to answer this question. Asking in a classroom environment will not lead to answers that take into account environmental conditions

I'm not sure it would. Think about stations with multiple departure boards, say above gatelines. Passengers will always start from the left to find their service, regardless of the alignment of the platform to the boards. So the same will be true of many, if not most where there is more than one departure board on the platforms. So long as it is clear that the left hand board represents the first service due, which it does, I honestly cannot see what the issue is. Ultimately whatever method is employed there will be people unhappy with the configuration, and frankly there's little that can be done about it. Perhaps the best solution here is to read all the information on screens, as it tells you all you need to know.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm not sure it would. Think about stations with multiple departure boards, say above gatelines. Passengers will always start from the left to find their service, regardless of the alignment of the platform to the boards. So the same will be true of many, if not most where there is more than one departure board on the platforms. So long as it is clear that the left hand board represents the first service due, which it does, I honestly cannot see what the issue is. Ultimately whatever method is employed there will be people unhappy with the configuration, and frankly there's little that can be done about it. Perhaps the best solution here is to read all the information on screens, as it tells you all you need to know.

I think there may be enough people getting confused that it is worth looking into why and therefore if there is a simple solution.

 

[Hadders]

I have to say, I'm very surprised at the number of people who seem to be saying that they would start on the right hand screen here

but start on the left hand column here

That seems to be implying that they would scan like this for the first screen set up

and like this for the second

You don't read the board in a lkeft to right fashion. WHat I want to know quickly is where the next train is going to, the departure board nearest to the platform edge seems the logical place (to me, anyway!) for this to be. Rather than showing a close up of the board it would be better if the picture showed a wider angle shot.

If you'd taken a picture of the screens on the other side of the bracket it would show the next train information nearest to the platform!

 

[Peter Sarf]

You don't read the board in a lkeft to right fashion. WHat I want to know quickly is where the next train is going to, the departure board nearest to the platform edge seems the logical place (to me, anyway!) for this to be. Rather than showing a close up of the board it would be better if the picture showed a wider angle shot.

If you'd taken a picture of the screens on the other side of the bracket it would show the next train information nearest to the platform!

I agree. This is a case of comparing what people understand in an environment where there is nothing else to do (sat at a computer or in a meeting) focused on the one thing AGAINST the real world hustle of walking along a platform possibly with bags, with kids (and some adults !), dodging other people and only looking up briefly for the station name you recognise.

And for those who don't see this as a problem all I can say is I have experienced the miss-interpretation myself and also corrected other peoples miss-interpretations. How serious an issue this is might only answered someone going the wrong way and missing an appointment/flight or getting fined. Whether there is an easy solution is another thing. I could only suggest rotating the two screens through 90 degrees so first train is on the top screen and make the stopping points into two columns for the first train, 2nd train would occupy the left half of the lower screen, subsequent trains list on the right half of the lower screen.

Easier would be to get 1st and 2nd train headers highlighted better, perhaps in a more obvious colour.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think there may be enough people getting confused that it is worth looking into why and therefore if there is a simple solution.

Are there though? The boards clearly indicate which are the first and second trains, if someone is in such a rush that they make an assumption without taking in all the information (as seemed to have been the case in this thread) then perhaps it is better to take a few extra moments to check both screens to work out which is which. This really seems to be a thing of minor irritation to some, and probably goes unthought of by most. Number 2,873 in the list of things to do to improve the railway network...