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The trains also have it written on the front in Led's , on the sides, in about every 3rd or so carriage and also on the scrolling where we are going roof mounted displays as well. It also tells it at you audibly every 3 or 4 minutes as you are going along. Although I did resort to once yelling " Is this the Cambridge train?" As I jumped on as it was about to depart. There is no real harm done even if you do get on the wrong one, just get off at St pancras before the lines branch and spread out to their destinations.
The trains also have it written on the front in Led's , on the sides, in about every 3rd or so carriage and also on the scrolling where we are going roof mounted displays as well. It also tells it at you audibly every 3 or 4 minutes as you are going along. Although I did resort to once yelling " Is this the Cambridge train?" As I jumped on as it was about to depart. There is no real harm done even if you do get on the wrong one, just get off at St pancras before the lines branch and spread out to their destinations.
My eye is immediately drawn to the yellow-on-black, which is unsurprising, rather than the blue on the top line, especially as it is a few points larger.
I then check the second line (probably of both) but probably don't read either screen in full.
Bear in mind that I have (probably*) already seen the chronological list of departures on the way to the platform so I have some idea what I'm looking for.
*maybe not if I am changing from a terminating train at BFR
Thinking about this issue, the question I need answered is 'do I get on this train?': and, such is the way of things, I will need to extract that information very quickly - so less I have to read and think, the better...
Perhaps the answer is to sepearate the two panels - need I think not be by more than a panel width - with the one nearest the track always being 'this train', and the other 'subsequent trains'
And the other part of the equation is what the information actually given is (and how it reads) - perhaps look at the samples illustrated from the point of view of someone travelling to Gatwick or Stevenage, who has just arrived on the platform...
This is counter intuitive half the time. The normal reading direction is left to right, top to bottom, therefore people will expect the most important information to be at the top left of any display.
They have considered it, very carefully. The majority of passengers seem to be able to find their train without significant problems caused by the order of displays. I don't know anybody who would automatically look for the sign closest to the tracks as the first train. Is it possible that your office survey was susceptible to confirmation bias?
Id expect the board on the platform to show the trains on that platform in order. Boards in-between or on concourses ca show services in order of time due with platform number on.
Thinking about this issue, the question I need answered is 'do I get on this train?': and, such is the way of things, I will need to extract that information very quickly - so less I have to read and think, the better...
Perhaps the answer is to sepearate the two panels - need I think not be by more than a panel width - with the one nearest the track always being 'this train', and the other 'subsequent trains'
And the other part of the equation is what the information actually given is (and how it reads) - perhaps look at the samples illustrated from the point of view of someone travelling to Gatwick or Stevenage, who has just arrived on the platform...
My bold. I think you might have a point there. It would be clearer if the next (1st) train indicator was clearly near the train. The subsequent departures do not need to be so close to the platform edge. But a good distance between the two screens would be needed. So the question is do the two screens have to hang off the same roof member/support ?.
And yes, some one turning up at the platform will not be analysing the information for as long as someone in a survey.
A couple of photos taken on the northbound Thameslink platforms at St Pancras, which illustrate the problem. The photos show the same train at the platform.
To me this makes sense, the information for the next train to depart is shown nearest the platform edge.
There could be confusion at Sheffield as there seems to be a problem with the displays on P2 as some trains are listed as 2 or 2A or 2B which seems to confuse the software. On more than one occasion recently the display right next to the 1701 to St Pancras displays that it is the 1711 to Cleethorpes because "technically" the the 1701 goes from P2 and the 1711 is the next from 2A.
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I was going to mention Blackfriars and the platform 3 problem.
Blackfriars northbound does have trains switcheroo - they are listed in order of expected arrival by their actual running. If, say, the 1752 to Cambridge is running 3 late having departed London Bridge, but the 1754 to St Albans is on time, then the latter will show as ‘First Train’. But if the Core South signaller (correctly) puts the Cambridge train in front at Blackfriars Jn, the screens will switch to the Cambridge being ‘First train’ when it hits the track circuit on entering the platform.
More than once I have had to help the platform staff in such matters
A couple of photos taken on the northbound Thameslink platforms at St Pancras, which illustrate the problem. The photos show the same train at the platform.
To me this makes sense, the information for the next train to depart is shown nearest the platform edge. View attachment 128806
I agree. The board closest to the platform edge ought to be the train that is there. Or just have one screen, with subsequent trains shown on a screen placed on the wall or something
A couple of photos taken on the northbound Thameslink platforms at St Pancras, which illustrate the problem. The photos show the same train at the platform.
To me this makes sense, the information for the next train to depart is shown nearest the platform edge. View attachment 128806
It is amazing how people think, I have never thought about the monitor closest to the track, just look at the 1st train.
The one that does confuse me is ordering trains in arrival on the "next trains". But more in concern that the one I want is actually cancelled. For example if at Blackfriars and the 1729 to Welwyn Garden City is 20 minutes late it can disappear off the list altogether. However conversely if delay trains were still in order, passengers many not see any departures at all until they hit the "1st train" monitor.
It is amazing how people think, I have never thought about the monitor closest to the track, just look at the 1st train.
The one that does confuse me is ordering trains in arrival on the "next trains". But more in concern that the one I want is actually cancelled. For example if at Blackfriars and the 1729 to Welwyn Garden City is 20 minutes late it can disappear off the list altogether. However conversely if delay trains were still in order, passengers many not see any departures at all until they hit the "1st train" monitor.
The next trains board is a difficult one, because if the next train is cancelled, then it's not the next train! I can understand keeping cancelled trains on the list for, say, 10 minutes to let people know it's not been missed but as you say, if you kept them on for too long you'd just have a list of cancelled trains and that's not much use.
Every now and again you also have the situation where the main train is cancelled but then replaced in the identical time slot by an on-the-day amended train (terminating short, emergency plan etc), and they forget to manually suppress the cancellation so you look at the next train and you get:
08:16 | London Euston | Cancelled
08:16 | London Euston | On Time
08:24 | Birmingham New Street | Cancelled
08:24 | Northampton | On Time
Or similar.
Oner that I see a lot is that when a train is delayed by a known amount of minutes it is shown in the list of departures in the order in which it will now arrive, but if for an unknown number of minutes (which usually means it hasn't yet left the terminus (and no-one is going to admit to knowing when it will) it will be displayed in the order it would have been in, had it started on time.
Thus
1st train Anytown Victoria Due 15:00 On time
2nd train Someplace Central Due 15:06 Delayed
3rd train Nowhere Junction Due 15:03 Expected 1510
RTT will reveal that the 1506 is in fact still at the terminus 10 miles away and there is no way it could overtake the 1503 anyway.
Why can the system not put a "delayed by at least 7 minutes" (or whatever) if its departure from the terminus is already overdue, to avoid false expectations, and confusion for potanetila passengers as to where the second train to turn up is actually going?.
Another point to make about London Bridge, is that at the narrow country end, there's just the 'next train' screen - there's no room for a second screen.
This tips the balance and makes it the case that more than 50% of the time, the screen nearest the track is for the next train.
I think they should be re-ordered to be the next train as the one nearest the track, but have a bright vinyl boarder stuck on to highlight the screen with the next train.
Over the past few years, I have boarded the wrong train at London Bridge quite a few times, and I could never really work out why until last night when I nearly did it again.
This is how Thameslink presents their live running data. 2 screens, always reading left to right.
However, if you are standing on the left side of a platform the first service is shown on the screen closest to the tracks, if you are standing on the right side of the platform, the first service is shown on the screen furthest from the tracks. This seems counterintuitive, I think my mistake has always been assuming the screen closest to the Track is the next service, that makes sense to me.
I think a yellow border around the one on the left with a "Next train" sign on the top would help. I've also done a double take with these displays sometimes, but never actually got on the wrong train, usually because the number of minutes is lower on the one on the left rather than seeing "1st train" though.
It will depend on a number of factors. A number of years ago now, we worked with a company that did eye-tracking to see how people read things. It was mostly designed to help design user manuals, but we were looking at data for designing a magazine cover. It could well be used for things like rule books and the like too, as well as advertising.
People did generally start top left, with the name of our magazine, and then looked immediately below to the first cover line (which might be smaller than the main one at the bottom or middle). It was fascinating to see how people do jump around, but still generally follow similar patterns. However text size, typestyles and even colours, also played a part.
Other things were borders or backgrounds to keep an eye 'locked in' so to speak and not wander. A border bounces the eye back, and it's one reason why I dislike the GB Railway style signs with plain white backgrounds. I wonder how much research was done on that.
Overall, I think the way things are with the TL signs is the best option for the majority of people - but people, especially those in a rush or even regular passengers only looking for key information, may miss vital things. To be honest, they'd likely do that whatever the layout.
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Oner that I see a lot is that when a train is delayed by a known amount of minutes it is shown in the list of departures in the order in which it will now arrive, but if for an unknown number of minutes (which usually means it hasn't yet left the terminus (and no-one is going to admit to knowing when it will) it will be displayed in the order it would have been in, had it started on time.
Thus
1st train Anytown Victoria Due 15:00 On time
2nd train Someplace Central Due 15:06 Delayed
3rd train Nowhere Junction Due 15:03 Expected 1510
RTT will reveal that the 1506 is in fact still at the terminus 10 miles away and there is no way it could overtake the 1503 anyway.
Why can the system not put a "delayed by at least 7 minutes" (or whatever) if its departure from the terminus is already overdue, to avoid false expectations, and confusion for potanetila passengers as to where the second train to turn up is actually going?.
The software isn't that clever, but if a train doesn't move for a set time it will likely switch to Delayed (but that doesn't tell someone if it's stopped nearby or right back at the start, so when it does move it could be xx minutes away minimum). It can't work out that being, say, behind a stopper means it will lose more time. It can't tell if the signaller could move a train out to a faster line to overtake, or that the train might skip stops and catch up. Most of these things would require some manual alterations to add or subtract time from the estimate, which isn't always possible or practical as changes can be made at short notice.
At St Pancras low level southbound, there's also the issue of trains running out of sequence at very short notice. By Farringdon, it's all good. The same must apply northbound at the other end of the core.
Other things were borders or backgrounds to keep an eye 'locked in' so to speak and not wander. A border bounces the eye back, and it's one reason why I dislike the GB Railway style signs with plain white backgrounds. I wonder how much research was done on that.
Have you seen Travel West Midlands buses? They had a revamp a little while ago, and I think the border around the destination display helps in the way you've described.
It's only a small detail, but I think helps quite a bit.
The trains also have it written on the front in Led's , on the sides, in about every 3rd or so carriage and also on the scrolling where we are going roof mounted displays as well. It also tells it at you audibly every 3 or 4 minutes as you are going along.
But what they say on the front and side (which is where the information is needed for a split second decision) is often the least useful information. "Guildford": is that via Cobham, Epsom or Woking? And if I actually wanted to go to Guildford I should take a train saying Portsmouth or Haslemere - first stop Guildford.
And, far too often, the destination shown on the indicators at the crucial moment is "See It Say It Sorted" or "Engineering Work will take place on [a completely different line] this weekend"
700s will at least stop doing anything else when at a station, unless the system has crashed. Once at a stop, it will just say where it is and where the train is going/stopping pattern.
All the screens about security, train loading, TfL status, CCTV are paused.
If only all the platform screens would do the same.
I think a yellow border around the one on the left with a "Next train" sign on the top would help. I've also done a double take with these displays sometimes, but never actually got on the wrong train, usually because the number of minutes is lower on the one on the left rather than seeing "1st train" though.
The current blue on black text within the screen saying "1st train" and "2nd train" is too weak. The bit saying how soon the train is due (yellow on black) stands out better and so also distracts from the information heading (blue first / next trains). I will see if I can find a photo.
A couple of photos taken on the northbound Thameslink platforms at St Pancras, which illustrate the problem. The photos show the same train at the platform.
To me this makes sense, the information for the next train to depart is shown nearest the platform edge. View attachment 128806
Have you seen Travel West Midlands buses? They had a revamp a little while ago, and I think the border around the destination display helps in the way you've described.
It's only a small detail, but I think helps quite a bit.
Crickey that blue shape really makes the bus indicator stand out. I ask myself why and will the effect wear off. Probably when all the busses are so improved.
But what they say on the front and side (which is where the information is needed for a split second decision) is often the least useful information. "Guildford": is that via Cobham, Epsom or Woking? And if I actually wanted to go to Guildford I should take a train saying Portsmouth or Haslemere - first stop Guildford.
And, far too often, the destination shown on the indicators at the crucial moment is "See It Say It Sorted" or "Engineering Work will take place on [a completely different line] this weekend"
The next trains board is a difficult one, because if the next train is cancelled, then it's not the next train! I can understand keeping cancelled trains on the list for, say, 10 minutes to let people know it's not been missed but as you say, if you kept them on for too long you'd just have a list of cancelled trains and that's not much use.
Every now and again you also have the situation where the main train is cancelled but then replaced in the identical time slot by an on-the-day amended train (terminating short, emergency plan etc), and they forget to manually suppress the cancellation so you look at the next train and you get:
08:16 | London Euston | Cancelled
08:16 | London Euston | On Time
08:24 | Birmingham New Street | Cancelled
08:24 | Northampton | On Time
Or similar.
They generally are only set to be on CIS screens for 10 minutes or so.
What you've described afer that isn't good or sensible planning information. If it's been pre-cancelled, it won't show in the timetable upload overnight and therefore won't be on CIS screens. This sounds like a train has been cancelled on the day but then a brand new train physically created with a different UID and a different headcode (often 1/2Zxx might be used). Much easier to just amend the existing train to whatever purpose you require.
What you've described afer that isn't good or sensible planning information. If it's been pre-cancelled, it won't show in the timetable upload overnight and therefore won't be on CIS screens. This sounds like a train has been cancelled on the day but then a brand new train physically created with a different UID and a different headcode (often 1/2Zxx might be used). Much easier to just amend the existing train to whatever purpose you require.
It was an on the day amendment in response to a failure, the cancelled trains were being replaced with an emergency plan, I think 1Txx rather than 1Zxx. I think there was a reason for cancellation and new schedule but can't remember what it was.
In the end I went up to the ticket office clerk and after a short chat he phoned through to MK Central as they have a CIS terminal and got them to suppress the cancelled trains.
I agree. The board closest to the platform edge ought to be the train that is there. Or just have one screen, with subsequent trains shown on a screen placed on the wall or something
The latter makes far more sense to me but then my first 25 years commuting for school and work was from stations with only next train displayed on the platform. After that was from Underground stations with stacked displays.
Travelling more recently I do find a degree of information overload when I just want to go straight to the right platform without standing in everybody else's way to work our where I should be going.
It was an on the day amendment in response to a failure, the cancelled trains were being replaced with an emergency plan, I think 1Txx rather than 1Zxx. I think there was a reason for cancellation and new schedule but can't remember what it was.
In the end I went up to the ticket office clerk and after a short chat he phoned through to MK Central as they have a CIS terminal and got them to suppress the cancelled trains.
Yes that can happen if NR demand it, but I’ve never seen it particularly necessary when you’ve got a booked train, unless you are altering the timetable significantly (I.e it leaves Euston at the same time but has to run at reduced speed) as opposed to just making train amendments.
As I said, cancellations eventually drop off but each operator will have a different threshold - a metro operator might be lower than others.
Crickey that blue shape really makes the bus indicator stand out. I ask myself why and will the effect wear off. Probably when all the busses are so improved.
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