Conductors not recognising ticket

[northwichcat]

Do the NRCoT not apply? Who Owns the ticket I'm guessing it's not the passenger so the point is moot.

The PTE owns the ticket and the PTE allows the passenger to keep it unless they use it fraudulently. If you had a company phone with a mobile ticket on would you not be allowed to try and get it back if the guard stole it?

 

[Darandio]

Not necessarily. TPE type tickets that are not subject to NRCoT (NRCoC is no longer valid) are the property of the TPE that issued it. In the OP's case South Yorkshire.

But still not the property of the passenger? Which is the question I'd replied to.

 

[Essan]

A 'meeting' is, by definition, agreed mutually beforehand.

Finding the person who I disagreed with earlier in the day waiting for me at the door to my workplace (or similar) is NOT what I consider a meeting.

I, having been wracked with guilt after I realised my mistake, would have been pleased to meet them, apologised for my error, and handed their ticket back to them. And hoped they then didnt take the matter further.

 

[Essan]

Does raise a question though regardling what a tocket is and who owns it

I assumed it was evidence of an agreed contract providing permission to travel. What is the point of it otherwise?

And what evidence of contract does the passenger have if the ticket is the property of the TOC?

 

[northwichcat]

^ With standard orange tickets no-one should take it off you if you're using it legitimately until after you have completed your journey but they can ask for it back once it has expired e.g. after the journey a single ticket is for has been completed.

 

[najaB]

And what evidence of contract does the passenger have if the ticket is the property of the TOC?

The ticket. I really don't understand the point you're trying to make.

 

[najaB]

I, having been wracked with guilt after I realised my mistake...

Again, this isn't about the specific case but rather the fact that waiting for someone outside their workplace in order to continue a dispute is not a good idea.

In the industry I work in now it's unlikely to happen (due to a large proportion of our customers being outside the UK), but there were cases at my previous employer where it did happen. Most of the time it was amicable, but in a few cases things got physical (in one case with life-threatening injuries). As such we were warned to keep an eye out for suspicious characters hanging around entrances and to call security/police if we felt threatened.

 

[hounddog]

The ticket. I really don't understand the point you're trying to make.

And if the ticket is confiscated by an incompetent (or worse) member of staff who doesn't give a receipt? How do you prove it ever existed?

 

[najaB]

And if the ticket is confiscated by an incompetent (or worse) member of staff who doesn't give a receipt? How do you prove it ever existed?

How would that be any different if the ticket wasn't the property of the TOC?

 

[rmt4ever]

This is the issue with Micky mouse PTEs like SYPTE changing the ticket travelcard options every five minute. Rebranding and altering T&Cs usually to hide fare hikes!!

All you need at each PTE is-

Day, week, month etc Bus Pass
Day, week, month etc Travelcard
Day off peak Travelcard

And then the same for Children, and also railcard etc holders. So everyone knows where they stand.

They just over complicate it too much.

 

[FenMan]

If the OPs story is complete and true, then a railway employee confiscated a ticket from a minor without providing a receipt and, I speculate here, possibly without informing themselves whether said minor had the means to to get home.

A rather more important issue than the fascinating, but not terribly relevant, discusson many posts in this thread have focused on. Seeing the wood for the trees and all that.

 

[yorkie]

If the OPs story is complete and true, then a railway employee confiscated a ticket from a minor without providing a receipt and, I speculate here, possibly without informing themselves whether said minor had the means to to get home.

A rather more important issue than the fascinating, but not terribly relevant, discusson many posts in this thread have focused on. Seeing the wood for the trees and all that.

Yes very much so, this is a potentially very serious safeguarding issue.

I have offered my assistance to the OP regarding this.

Much of the discussion in this thread is an irrelevance and an unfortunate distraction.

 

[SA_900]

Hitting him would have been battery, not assault. If someone thinks you are going to do them violence, then you have assaulted them.

I know that if I had a disagreement with someone and then found them waiting for me later in the day, wanting to take it further I would be looking around to see where the closest exit was!

Lets keep some perspective please. This is not a sensible tangent.

 

[northwichcat]

I notice someone's dug out an old tweet from 2015 about conductors not knowing about the GetAbout+ ticket and retweeted it with a question directed at Northern asking when the conductors are going to be trained on it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . maybe it should be considered whether the guard committed a criminal offence by taking property he wasn't permitted to take?

Really?

. . . . we know that the passenger was in the right and the guard, arguably, was the one who committed a crime ....

We don't. And I see no evidence of a Criminal Offence. Where do you get that from?

btw I though my ticket belonged to me? As a document showing my right to travel?

And where do you get that from? Surely before posting advice to other passengers on here you have gained some understanding of railway passenger contract law?

If the OPs story is complete and true, then a railway employee confiscated a ticket from a minor without providing a receipt and, I speculate here, possibly without informing themselves whether said minor had the means to to get home.

Isn't this the one point that the issue turns one?

 

[Starmill]

It's very difficult to confiscate a ticket without telling someone why you wish to confiscate it.

It's also very difficult to tell someone that they need to buy a new ticket without saying that ticket that they have got is not valid.

If I were a member of staff who checked tickets, I would want to be quite careful about that. Anyone saying that you are avoiding payment of the correct fare is accusing you of an criminal offence. If they're wrong, they could be slandering you.

 

[talltim]

This is the issue with Micky mouse PTEs like SYPTE changing the ticket travelcard options every five minute. Rebranding and altering T&Cs usually to hide fare hikes!!

All you need at each PTE is-

Day, week, month etc Bus Pass
Day, week, month etc Travelcard
Day off peak Travelcard

And then the same for Children, and also railcard etc holders. So everyone knows where they stand.

They just over complicate it too much.

So, is a bus pass valid on the tram? Or do you need a travelcard? And would spend the money on a whole SY bus pass when you only travelled on Sheffield?

 

[talltim]

To the OP, as well as contacting Northern have you also contacted Travelmaster and/or SYPTE?
If you want to PM me I might be able to put you in touch with the relevant people

 

[najaB]

Anyone saying that you are avoiding payment of the correct fare is accusing you of an criminal offence. If they're wrong, they could be slandering you.

UK defamation law is quite complex, but I don't think that a RPI accusing you of having an invalid ticket meets the definition of slander.

 

[PeterC]

UK defamation law is quite complex, but I don't think that a RPI accusing you of having an invalid ticket meets the definition of slander.

I haven't kept up with changes in the law since I took a law course in the 70s but my understanding is that your reputation has to be harmed. If a false accusation was made in front of people who knew you it could be actionable.

 

[thejuggler]

I had a similar problem when West Yorkshire PTE introduced the corporate Metro Card. As it has no photocard a couple of conductors questioned its validity.

The card now has a letter with it explaining what it is, but conductors must now be aware of the cards as they no longer query validity.

 

[northwichcat]

Really?

It makes more sense than the people who accused a passenger of risking assault charges by waiting for the conductor to ask for the ticket to be returned.

 

[najaB]

It makes more sense than the people who accused a passenger of risking assault charges by waiting for the conductor to ask for the ticket to be returned.

Again, here's the scenario: You have a dispute with someone and then later find them waiting for you outside your workplace wanting to continue the dispute. Would you be 100% sure that they harboured no ill intent?

If the answer is no then an assault has occurred. Plain and simple. Assault is not battery.

 

[northwichcat]

Again, here's the scenario: You have a dispute with someone and then later find them waiting for you outside your workplace wanting to continue the dispute. Would you be 100% sure that they harboured no ill intent?

If the answer is no then an assault has occurred. Plain and simple. Assault is not battery.

Yes assault could be using threatening or offensive language or just pushing someone.

However, let's look what happened:
1. Guard wrongly took ticket. It wasn't invalid, he was just not trained properly. Passenger needed ticket back to make onward journeys.
2. Passenger asked for ticket back in front of other rail staff. Possibly passenger given assistance by rail staff in locating said guard.
3. Guard gave ticket back.

Are you suggesting the rail staff witnessed an assault and choose not only not to alert BTP but didn't even consider trying to remove the passenger from the station?

 

[yorkie]

Until there is some additional information, there is no point going round in circles on this.