Conductors not recognising ticket

[_toommm_]

Thankfully this issue hasn’t been took the legal stage, but here is my issue...

Every week I buy a GetAbout+ week ticket. This is a South Yorkshire ticket and allows children with a valid pass (which I have and always carry around) to travel on any bus tram or train, regardless of the time of the day. However, most Northern Conductors haven’t heard of it, and I’ve had it temporarily confiscated off me twice.

How could I go about proving it every time? Showing the website to prove it’s valid doesn’t work, and me explaining it (in a calm and sensible fashion) and the fact that it says ‘Valid on all buses trams and trains in South Yorkshire’ doesn’t wash either.

I look forward to your responses,
Tom

 

[najaB]

How could I go about proving it every time? Showing the website to prove it’s valid doesn’t work, and me explaining it (in a calm and sensible fashion) and the fact that it says ‘Valid on all buses trams and trains in South Yorkshire’ doesn’t wash either.

Is there a leaflet explaining the scheme?

 

[Bertie the bus]

How could I go about proving it every time? Showing the website to prove it’s valid doesn’t work, and me explaining it (in a calm and sensible fashion) and the fact that it says ‘Valid on all buses trams and trains in South Yorkshire’ doesn’t wash either.

Write to Northern. Explain some of the problems you've had and request they give their conductors appropriate training. Requesting an e-mail from a senior manager at Northern confirming your ticket is valid, which you can print off and show if challenged, wouldn't do any harm either.

No guarantee of success but it might help.

 

[_toommm_]

Write to Northern. Explain some of the problems you've had and request they give their conductors appropriate training. Requesting an e-mail from a senior manager at Northern confirming your ticket is valid, which you can print off and show if challenged, wouldn't do any harm either.

No guarantee of success but it might help.

I’ve tried that but they never email me back. When I ask for confirmation off Twitter to be emailed to me they never reply

 

[yorkie]

... I’ve had it temporarily confiscated off me twice. ...

This sounds potentially concerning. How temporary was the confiscation? Were you issued with a receipt? were you accused of anything? were you ever in a position were you could have been left stranded? I'm just trying to determine how serious this is.

A few seconds searching the web finds this:
http://www.sytravelmaster.com/getabout

With a GetAbout+ you can also travel on any train in addition to any bus and any tram anywhere in South Yorkshire.

So the staff acting this way have no excuses. What did they company say about these incidents?

 

[theblackwatch]

I’ve tried that but they never email me back. When I ask for confirmation off Twitter to be emailed to me they never reply

Write/e-mail them properly rather than using Twitter. From my experience of their Twitter team, judging by what they told me the other week, they have little or no knowledge/understanding of ticketing matters.

 

[sportzbar]

Working as a conductor for Northern I have to say I haven't heard of this ticket either. However that is not to say it doesn't exist. Ticketing across PTE boundaries is a nightmare for train crew and even though we do get in depth training regarding ticketing, unfortunately a lot of ticket ticket types do slip through the net.

Personally I have actually learned a hell of a lot from passengers and their tickets (backed up through research) and would never dream of confiscating a ticket unless I was 100% sure it wasn't valid.

 

[185]

For train operators, local ticketing has always been an issue in the Mersey / TFGM / WY & SY pte areas. Whilst at one former company in 1999, two of us spent a shift putting together a local ticketing guide for a company that covered the four areas. Getting the day off to do that was like getting blood out of a stone, however the little booklet was spotted being used for around seven years afterwards, mostly on new starter training courses.

Nowadays, operators seem to think this is something that is best left to the training departments - however seeing some of the things they've told new starters, does make me wonder whether that is a wise choice.

 

[_toommm_]

This sounds potentially concerning. How temporary was the confiscation? Were you issued with a receipt? were you accused of anything? were you ever in a position were you could have been left stranded? I'm just trying to determine how serious this is.

A few seconds searching the web finds this:
http://www.sytravelmaster.com/getabout



So the staff acting this way have no excuses. What did they company say about these incidents?

The first confiscation was for the length of my journey (Sheffield to Barnsley) after which she reluctantly gave it me back because her depot hadn’t a clue either.

The second time I had it confiscated without a receipt. Luckily I knew where I could find said conductor again so I waited at the station (Meadowhall) for him to come back and further dispute the issue until, once again, he reluctantly gave it me back after other staff members hear my issue

 

[najaB]

...Luckily I knew where I could find said conductor again so I waited at the station (Meadowhall) for him to come back and further dispute the issue...

As an aside, and separate from your ticketing issue, please don't do that again as it could leave you in legal jeopardy: "That person I had a dispute with earlier has just turned up outside my work saying that they want to continue the dispute" could be said to be sufficient reason for the guard to 'apprehend immediate unlawful violence'.

In other words you could potentially have been brought up on assault charges.

 

[_toommm_]

As an aside, and separate from your ticketing issue, please don't do that again as it could leave you in legal jeopardy: "That person I had a dispute with earlier has just turned up outside my work saying that they want to continue the dispute" could be said to be sufficient reason for the guard to 'apprehend immediate unlawful violence'.

In other words you could potentially have been brought up on assault charges.

Assault? I didn’t hit him, and all I wanted was my perfectly valid ticket back as it would’ve left me stranded without means to get home.

 

[northwichcat]

Nowadays, operators seem to think this is something that is best left to the training departments - however seeing some of the things they've told new starters, does make me wonder whether that is a wise choice.

I heard the other day someone Northern provided to do holiday cover at Knutsford station was selling TfGM Wayfarers to people for £12 when they asked for tickets to 'Manchester via Metrolink return' at off-peak times. They should have been sold Knutsford to Metrolink City Off-Peak Return for £8.40. Either someone wasn't aware of that ticket or they didn't realise the B3 restriction meant there are no evening peak restrictions. In either case it seems the training wasn't up to standard.

 

[yorkie]

The second time I had it confiscated without a receipt. Luckily I knew where I could find said conductor again so I waited at the station (Meadowhall) for him to come back and further dispute the issue until, once again, he reluctantly gave it me back after other staff members hear my issue

So you got off, approached staff (perhaps at the ticket office) and they helped you get it back and worked out when the relevant train would call at Meadowhall again, by the sound of it?

Well done to the staff who helped you but this incident needs to be reported as a safeguarding incident. I'd get your parents to write to Northern Rail about the matter and ask for the matter to be investigated.

 

[rs101]

As an aside, and separate from your ticketing issue, please don't do that again as it could leave you in legal jeopardy: "That person I had a dispute with earlier has just turned up outside my work saying that they want to continue the dispute" could be said to be sufficient reason for the guard to 'apprehend immediate unlawful violence'.

In other words you could potentially have been brought up on assault charges.

As long as he waited for him inside railway property (ie within the person's place of work) and didn't demonstrate a violent attitude then if the guard apprended them as you suggest then the outcome would probably be a disciplinary and or criminal charge for the guard.

The guard has already probably breached procedures by confiscating a ticket without issuing a receipt.

 

[island]

Assault? I didn’t hit him, and all I wanted was my perfectly valid ticket back as it would’ve left me stranded without means to get home.

Assault includes putting someone in fear of violence as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Looking at the T&Cs for the ticket

You cannot use a product:
5.1.1. outside of the validity dates (i.e. before the Product’s start date or after the expiry date);

5.1.2. beyond the designated boundary zones;

5.1.3. which has been defaced or mutilated;

5.1.4. that has been issues to someone else and is not transferable (i.e. because it is personalised or is subject to age restrictions);

5.1.5. for multiple passengers on the same service (unless specifically authorised for the Product concerned); or.

5.1.6. unless You present the smartcard and paper counterpart (where both were issued at the time of purchase).

If anyone of those terms are broken an authorised transport employee is allowed to confiscate the ticket but there's no mention of an authorised transport employee being allowed to confiscate the ticket for any other reason.

So before trying to accuse the passenger of potential assault maybe it should be considered whether the guard committed a criminal offence by taking property he wasn't permitted to take?

 

[najaB]

Assault? I didn’t hit him, and all I wanted was my perfectly valid ticket back as it would’ve left me stranded without means to get home.

Hitting him would have been battery, not assault. If someone thinks you are going to do them violence, then you have assaulted them.

I know that if I had a disagreement with someone and then found them waiting for me later in the day, wanting to take it further I would be looking around to see where the closest exit was!

 

[221129]

Looking at the T&Cs for the ticket

You cannot use a product:
5.1.1. outside of the validity dates (i.e. before the Product’s start date or after the expiry date);

5.1.2. beyond the designated boundary zones;

5.1.3. which has been defaced or mutilated;

5.1.4. that has been issues to someone else and is not transferable (i.e. because it is personalised or is subject to age restrictions);

5.1.5. for multiple passengers on the same service (unless specifically authorised for the Product concerned); or.

5.1.6. unless You present the smartcard and paper counterpart (where both were issued at the time of purchase).

If anyone of those terms are broken an authorised transport employee is allowed to confiscate the ticket but there's no mention of an authorised transport employee being allowed to confiscate the ticket for any other reason.

So before trying to accuse the passenger of potential assault maybe it should be considered whether the guard committed a criminal offence by taking property he wasn't permitted to take?

Do the NRCoT not apply? Who Owns the ticket I'm guessing it's not the passenger so the point is moot.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Do the NRCoT not apply? Who Owns the ticket I'm guessing it's not the passenger so the point is moot.

The PTE would own the ticket... The PTE's rules would take priority over NRCOT.

 

[najaB]

So before trying to accuse the passenger of potential assault maybe it should be considered whether the guard committed a criminal offence by taking property he wasn't permitted to take?

Why? The two matters are separate and distinct.

In the general case, "He had it coming." has been tried and found wanting as a defence on many occasions.

 

[Essan]

As an aside, and separate from your ticketing issue, please don't do that again as it could leave you in legal jeopardy: "That person I had a dispute with earlier has just turned up outside my work saying that they want to continue the dispute" could be said to be sufficient reason for the guard to 'apprehend immediate unlawful violence'.

In other words you could potentially have been brought up on assault charges.

That sounds like Unionista-speak to me and I would sincerely hope that, under the circumstances, no railway employee would ever do that!

I appreciate that the customer is not always right. But sometimes they are - and taking them to court for being right is not the way to engender good public relationships!

 

[najaB]

That sounds like Unionista-speak to me and I would sincerely hope that, under the circumstances, no railway employee would ever do that!

I'm neither a union member, nor a railway employee. And my advice wasn't limited to railway issues either. "Waiting for someone so you can take it up later, face to face" is rarely an advisable course of action.

I appreciate that the customer is not always right. But sometimes they are - and taking them to court for being right is not the way to engender good public relationships!

As I said, any potential assault charge would be completely separate and distinct from the ticketing matter.

 

[Essan]

I'm neither a union member, nor a railway employee. And my advice wasn't limited to railway issues either. "Waiting for someone so you can take it up later, face to face" is rarely an advisable course of action.
As I said, any potential assault charge would be completely separate and distinct from the ticketing matter.

I would disagree - meeting someone for a discussion to sort out a misunderstanding in an amicable way, rather than going to the police or lawyers, if far better. IMO.

Bearing in mind that in this case, we know that the passenger was in the right and the guard, arguably, was the one who committed a crime ....

A fight is easier solved by a smile.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I would disagree - meeting someone for a discussion to sort out a misunderstanding in an amicable way, rather than going to the police or lawyers, if far better. IMO.

Bearing in mind that in this case, we know that the passenger was in the right and the guard, arguably, was the one who committed a crime ....

A fight is easier solved by a smile.

How did the guard commit a crime? The passenger does not own the ticket. It is owned by the PTE in this case and by the railway in the case of a normal ticket.

 

[Essan]

I said, arguably ....

But IMO confiscating a legally held ticket for no valid reason, is not something you want to have to explain to a magistrate

 

[Essan]

btw I though my ticket belonged to me? As a document showing my right to travel?

 

[Darandio]

btw I though my ticket belonged to me? As a document showing my right to travel?

All tickets remain the property of the railway.

From the NRCOC.....

Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company.

 

[najaB]

I would disagree - meeting someone for a discussion to sort out a misunderstanding in an amicable way, rather than going to the police or lawyers, if far better. IMO.

A 'meeting' is, by definition, agreed mutually beforehand.

Finding the person who I disagreed with earlier in the day waiting for me at the door to my workplace (or similar) is NOT what I consider a meeting.

 

[cjmillsnun]

All tickets remain the property of the railway.

From the NRCOC.....

Not necessarily. TPE type tickets that are not subject to NRCoT (NRCoC is no longer valid) are the property of the TPE that issued it. In the OP's case South Yorkshire.

 

[northwichcat]

Not necessarily. TPE type tickets that are not subject to NRCoT (NRCoC is no longer valid) are the property of the TPE that issued it. In the OP's case South Yorkshire.

You mean PTE.