Condition 3 (again)

[Starmill]

it took all of 2 seconds to bring up a GM Evenung Ranger.

Correct

It also brought up the ways you can pay for this ( exactly the same ways as other tickets ).......however the " Excess " option for this Rover is actually grayed out, meaning it cannot be used.

More correct.

This goes back to a point I made earlier in this thread about it being a technical issue - and also re inforces the advice stated on this forum in the ticketing section ...." You cannot excess a rover ".

Well thank Christ that's been cleared up (again)!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I sold another Rover today! That makes TWO! The passenger was railway, and told me where to find it, otherwise we might still be there...

It's not just Avantix - I tried to buy a ticket from Edinburgh Airport today. After we'd gotten past "There's an Airport in Edinburgh?" I had to instruct the clerk (very tentatively!) to put E - D - B - SPACE and then, and only then, did 'EDB APT BUS/TRAM' appear! They don't make it easy ....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They most certainly can do it - the Northern staff at Wallgate issue it no problem. Try buying it from there? There's really no excuse for the Virgin staff not selling it.

None at all, but it does not surprise me one jot that they won't issue it!

 

[LowLevel]

I think having considered I'd take the ticket if really necessary as cash, make note of the ticket number it's part exed for and put a report on the shift sheet - we don't have an entry on our shift sheets for other credit, though some members may be pleased to hear they do feature space for national transport tokens and foreign currency etc.

 

[Crossover]

Took me ages to find a Saveaway all zones on my bandit (I only work long distance services into Liverpool so don't sell much in the way of local fares there) but I got there in the end. A lot of the time it's about just banging the likely first letter in the name in then scanning the whole list to find the one you need.

Myself and starmill got them issued at Harrogate (that raised some eyebrows on Merseyside!), but had to advise of the code name in order to find it on the system

 

[reb0118]

It's not just Avantix - I tried to buy a ticket from Edinburgh Airport today. After we'd gotten past "There's an Airport in Edinburgh?" I had to instruct the clerk (very tentatively!) to put E - D - B - SPACE and then, and only then, did 'EDB APT BUS/TRAM' appear! They don't make it easy ....

Who told you about this? This is supposed to be a state secret! I thought I was the only person to know how to issue tickets to/from the airport.

All joking aside, it could be a lot easier. Re. the Edinburgh Airport ticket above two points:-

1) Why not use EDI as the NLC. It is not currently used as a rail destination AFAIAA and it would be the same as the IATA code for Edinburgh.

2) Why the -/TRAM on the tickets routed via Inverkeithing? A touch confusing, no?

 

[Starmill]

Who told you about this? This is supposed to be a state secret! I thought I was the only person to know how to issue tickets to/from the airport.

All joking aside, it could be a lot easier. Re. the Edinburgh Airport ticket above two points:-

1) Why not use EDI as the NLC. It is not currently used as a rail destination AFAIAA and it would be the same as the IATA code for Edinburgh.

2) Why the -/TRAM on the tickets routed via Inverkeithing? A touch confusing, no?

Indeed, it isn't easy to navigate! And that ticket type "Bus Day Single" is also valid on the tram so...

 

[joke2711]

They most certainly can do it - the Northern staff at Wallgate issue it no problem. Try buying it from there? There's really no excuse for the Virgin staff not selling it.

I have bought from Wallgate before and yes they can normally issue but there has been occasions that they wont.

Also, I have had the occasional Northern guard on a Liverpool service who has been unable to find the ticket on the train.

As for Virgin at North Western, they flatly refuse - which I am sure probably contravenes rules in the issue of tickets. I am sure some ticketing expert could tell me more.

Okay the stations are only across the road but if you are dropped off at North Western with luggage why should you have to walk across to another station to purchase your ticket - that is madness!

 

[talltim]

If condition 3 says that you should buy a ticket for part of your journey and exchange it for the ticket you actually want at the first available opportunity, when is that? If every guard/ticket office you go to can't/doesn't know how to/refuses to do it, there may be no available opportunity!

 

[Moonshot]

If condition 3 says that you should buy a ticket for part of your journey and exchange it for the ticket you actually want at the first available opportunity, when is that? If every guard/ticket office you go to can't/doesn't know how to/refuses to do it, there may be no available opportunity!

Id be interested to see just how many ticket types cannot be " excessed" in this fashion......obviously the rover mentioned in the OP is one of them, but is there any more? Or is the issue just peculiar to this rover?

 

[maniacmartin]

I suspects there are more 'will nots' than 'cannots'

 

[Starmill]

I suspects there are more 'will nots' than 'cannots'

Northern and Virgin are very good at employing people who have this "I'm right, you're wrong. I've made up my mind and I'm not doing that" sort of attitude. They just seem to nurture it (whereas I'd guess from my experience a very small proportion of Grand Central of ATW staff are like that, and although I've rarely used them, Hull Trains and Chiltern are probably similar.). The former because they are undervalued, underpaid and treated badly and the latter because they think of themselves as better than everyone else!

 

[Moonshot]

Northern and Virgin are very good at employing people who have this "I'm right, you're wrong. I've made up my mind and I'm not doing that" sort of attitude. They just seem to nurture it (whereas I'd guess from my experience a very small proportion of Grand Central of ATW staff are like that, and although I've rarely used them, Hull Trains and Chiltern are probably similar.). The former because they are undervalued, underpaid and treated badly and the latter because they think of themselves as better than everyone else!

You seem to have a great dislike for Northern and Virgin staff starmill....maybe you should apply for a role with either of the above and see if you can improve the quality of what your perception of the aforementioned staff is.

Certainly my experience from the inside is certainly different from your perception, I can absolutely guarentee you that I dont feel undervalued, treated badly and definetely not underpaid.

 

[Lanbo]

According to the dreaded 'KnowledgeBase', Saveaway tickets can be bought at:
Railway stations in Merseyside
Some libraries in Merseyside
Merseytravel Centres
Merseytravel ticket agencies in corner shops.
Which would explain WGN not issuing them!

Regarding Condition 3, the only way I can think of to apply this to a rover or ranger (or for that matter, a season ticket) would be to use the fare override button to issue a manual ticket for the difference, and keep the original ticket for paperwork. Using SMART, it's fairly easy to do this - whether or not it's the correct procedure is another matter...

 

[Deerfold]

You seem to have a great dislike for Northern and Virgin staff starmill....maybe you should apply for a role with either of the above and see if you can improve the quality of what your perception of the aforementioned staff is.

Certainly my experience from the inside is certainly different from your perception, I can absolutely guarentee you that I dont feel undervalued, treated badly and definetely not underpaid.

I wouldn't say a great dislike, but perhaps this is influenced by his experiences in trying to simply buy the ticket he wants?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You cannot excess a rover ".

But they're not trying to excess a rover, they're trying to excess TO a rover.

 

[Moonshot]

I wouldn't say a great dislike, but perhaps this is influenced by his experiences in trying to simply buy the ticket he wants?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But they're not trying to excess a rover, they're trying to excess TO a rover.

yes I know....we have already established that some time ago in the very first post.

I know it cant be done because I tried this ( as I pointed out on this thread as well ) on my avantix machine.

Oscar ( fares advisor on this forum ) has already stated this fact as well which has been known about for a long time by the looks of it. Maybe if the OP had bothered to read this first , it wouldnt be an issue at all.

 

[maniacmartin]

Maybe if the OP had bothered to read this first , it wouldnt be an issue at all.

The OP would have been at risk of a byelaw prosecution however had he not proceeded the way he did.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Maybe if the OP had bothered to read this first , it wouldnt be an issue at all.

The OP doesn't care why the ticket staff are not complying with condition three, he simply cares that they don't comply with condition three.

My understanding is that an excess and a part-exchange are different things. You wouldn't excess a Pertis voucher, you would use it as part-payment for another ticket.

The simple fact remains that if the OP doesn't buy before boarding, he is at significant risk of receiving a Fixed Penalty Notice from Northern- look at dannypye999's thread yesterday- or a Byelaws prosecution.

Condition 3 says he must buy a ticket for part of his journey otherwise he is breaking the law. The fact it's more inconvenient for train staff, who would much rather just sell the rover to begin with, is neither here nor there. The Byelaws and NRCoC say he must buy the single before getting on the train.

 

[Moonshot]

The OP would have been at risk of a byelaw prosecution however had he not proceeded the way he did.

A byelaw prosecution which came about because the Avantix machine the guard uses has this particular function greyed out.....in other words a technical issue. For which I do not know the reason why that exists, but I would suspect that there is a likely one. Which is why I asked the question in this thread, how many other ticket types does this very minor issue affect?

Excessing in general is very easy from an operators point of view.

 

[Deerfold]

yes I know....we have already established that some time ago in the very first post.

Which is why what you're quoting isn't relevant. Which is why I mentioned it.

I know it cant be done because I tried this ( as I pointed out on this thread as well ) on my avantix machine.

Surely that only proves it can't be done on an avantix machine?

Which is why I asked the question in this thread, how many other ticket types does this very minor issue affect?

You keep referring to this being a minor issue. It seems to be a major issue affecting a small minority of transactions.

How many people need to be affected by a possibility of being prosecuted for doing what some rail staff think is a reasonable course of action before it's a problem worth solving?

 

[Moonshot]

Which is why what you're quoting isn't relevant. Which is why I mentioned it.



Surely that only proves it can't be done on an avantix machine?



You keep referring to this being a minor issue. It seems to be a major issue affecting a small minority of transactions.

How many people need to be affected by a possibility of being prosecuted for doing what some rail staff think is a reasonable course of action before it's a problem worth solving?

It is a minor issue...........and the reason its minor is that very few evening rangers are sold. How do I know that? Because part of my role ( and this has been highlighted by another guard on here ) is checking tickets. And its extemely rare to see these GM evening rangers, they are just not popular. What they do in effect is give the user 5 hours of unlimted use of trains in the Greater Manchester area after 6.30pm. Sounds like an ideal ticket for a trainspotter , though to what extent it is any use in the winter when its dark is debatable.

 

[table38]

Sounds like an ideal ticket for a trainspotter , though to what extent it is any use in the winter when its dark is debatable.

Saves me 70p and I'm not even trainspotting

Some TPE and Northern guards do offer them (although I usually have to ask), as they are often the cheapest ticket after 9pm.

Eg:
Stalybridge to Manchester single £3.20
Evening Ranger: £2.50

But again, we hit the problem where the TVM at Stalybridge doesn't sell them. Northern have suggested "if you offer to pay, there is no issue" whatever that means.

 

[Moonshot]

Saves me 70p and I'm not even trainspotting

Some TPE and Northern guards do offer them (although I usually have to ask), as they are often the cheapest ticket after 9pm.

Eg:
Stalybridge to Manchester single £3.20
Evening Ranger: £2.50

But again, we hit the problem where the TVM at Stalybridge doesn't sell them. Northern have suggested "if you offer to pay, there is no issue" whatever that means.

I can guarentee you if I was asked i would sell one to you......and in fact if I had happened to be running the service that starmill had got on and he had stated to me whilst I was on the platform for a minute or so that he wanted to buy an evening ranger, I would have said " sure, hop on the train and I ll come and sell you one shortly ".

You have to wonder if a guard in general gives permission to a passenger in this fashion where TVMs exist already if that simple granting of permission to board satisfies Condition 3 of the NRCOC......probably one for a legal expert to look at but it would seem like a solution at face value.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Regarding Condition 3, the only way I can think of to apply this to a rover or ranger (or for that matter, a season ticket) would be to use the fare override button to issue a manual ticket for the difference, and keep the original ticket for paperwork. Using SMART, it's fairly easy to do this - whether or not it's the correct procedure is another matter...

If you adjust the price of the ticket in the ticket system you will get a 'fares mismatch' and your accounts department may feel they need to talk to you about the money your manual tickets are costing the company.

 

[Moonshot]

If you adjust the price of the ticket in the ticket system you will get a 'fares mismatch' and your accounts department may feel they need to talk to you about the money your manual tickets are costing the company.

would that situation occur if a guard took a ticket in part exchange , but then keyed in the wrong amount against the new ticket, and the ticket taken in part exchange was physically presented to accounts as part of the " end of shift " process?

 

[Deerfold]

It is a minor issue...........and the reason its minor is that very few evening rangers are sold. How do I know that? Because part of my role ( and this has been highlighted by another guard on here ) is checking tickets. And its extemely rare to see these GM evening rangers, they are just not popular. What they do in effect is give the user 5 hours of unlimted use of trains in the Greater Manchester area after 6.30pm. Sounds like an ideal ticket for a trainspotter , though to what extent it is any use in the winter when its dark is debatable.

I'm not a train spotter. I've used a GM evening ranger for just one journey - after 2100 it's the cheapest way to travel between Littleborough and Manchester. Fortunately I was able to buy it at a staffed station in advance. Perhaps you rarely see them as the machines don't offer them so many passengers don't know about them?

For someone worried about being prosecuted it's not a minor issue. I've agreed it may only affect a small number of people - but for them it's a major issue.

Although you quoted it, you've not answered my question :

How many people need to be affected by a possibility of being prosecuted for doing what some rail staff think is a reasonable course of action before it's a problem worth solving?

Is it acceptable to make a ticket hard to buy because it's not popular?

Perhaps this is a way to make it less popular so Northern can convince GMPTE to drop it?

 

[telstarbox]

Why can't the ticket be added to the machine?

 

[table38]

Why can't the ticket be added to the machine?

I have always assumed it's because Rovers/Rangers need to be issued to an individual (presumably to avoid them being "passed on" after use) so can only be sold by physical ticket office staff or guard?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Surely if the TVM only accepts debit/credit cards you are not obliged to use the TVM (of course not everyone has a debit/credit card). Many Northern TVMs don't accept cash for security reasons.

 

[Merseysider]

I have always assumed it's because Rovers/Rangers need to be issued to an individual (presumably to avoid them being "passed on" after use) so can only be sold by physical ticket office staff or guard?

I thought it was because on many of Northern's TVMs you have to select a destination, and as the ranger isn't a point to point, it couldn't be programmed into them?

Many Northern TVMs don't accept cash for security reasons.

Yeah, us Northerners are dangerous folk

 

[table38]

I thought it was because on many of Northern's TVMs you have to select a destination, and as the ranger isn't a point to point, it couldn't be programmed into them?

I'd have thought it was doable, if the machine knew the stations the Rangers were available to/from, then it could come up as an option on the next screen (where you select single/return, standard/first class etc.)

I think the Metrolink TVMs work a bit like this, you put in destination and number of people and it then comes up with the ticket types available (eg. Adult Day Travelcard (off peak))

 

[hairyhandedfool]

would that situation occur if a guard took a ticket in part exchange , but then keyed in the wrong amount against the new ticket, and the ticket taken in part exchange was physically presented to accounts as part of the " end of shift " process?

A fares mismatch is where a ticket is issued for a value that is not the same as the value it should be issued at, regardless of how much was taken for it. A mismatch can normally only happen with a manual fare input these days.

Fares mismatches have nothing to do with how much money is actually taken or how it is accounted for, it is just the value that the machine issues it at, the value printed on the ticket.

Anyone who has issued a Duplicate Season on APTIS and pressed 'Season' instead of 'Duplicate' will know all about fares mismatches......