Condition 3 (again)

[Baxenden Bank]

Slightly to one side.

In Northern land;
Are any rovers / rangers available from a ticket machine (and whose machines). I used to be able to buy a GM rail ranger on the platform at Stockport but that machine disappeared ages ago.

Is the Peak / Manchester Wayfarer available from any ticket machines. I looked at Stockport a few weeks ago but could find nothing - and the ticket office is closed in the evening.

Generally, why are rangers / rovers not available for purchase on-line for postal delivery / on demand collection? Save for a very limited selection from First Great Western?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Until 2 mins ago, I had never read it myself.......but certainly looking at it, it does state that the price you have to pay will be reduced etc......which is the effect of excessing a ticket anyway. So as far as I m concerned , there has to be a technical reason for this. In my not inconsiderable travels up and down the network on a weekly basis, I ve yet to come across anyone trying to part ex a single ticket against a rover.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I ve just had another look at this issue, only this time I ve used this Rail Forums own guide to ticketing which is very informative.......and below I ve just copied and pasted a piece from it.


Multi-journey tickets

Multi-journey tickets, such as Season tickets, Day Rangers, Rovers etc cannot, as a general rule, be "excessed".


The above was posted by Oscar who is a fares advisor on here , maybe he can help with this one.

Don't you use an Avantix Mobile machine in the course of your duties?

 

[Moonshot]

Don't you use an Avantix Mobile machine in the course of your duties?

Yes ..... never had to do the one that the OP describes though. But excessing per se is not difficult.

 

[maniacmartin]

I would not be surprised if Avantix didn't permit excessing a point to point into a rover. I believe that this is an oversight by those designing the software.

Although for point to point tickets, the Condition 3 procedure can be done with the excess functionality of an Avantix, it isn't an excess in the sensecontractual definition in the TSA and NRCoC, for when a passenger changes their mind (see here). Thus if Condition 3 had not been considered then there would be no need to have the excess to rover feature, as ordinarily you can't excess to a rover. However, the Avantix's shortcomings are of no concern to the passenger.

Sadly there are too many threads on here where ticket offices want passengers to buy a whole new ticket and submit the old ticket to be refunded by the TOC's customer services team at a later date. This is not acceptable in my opinion.

 

[Crossover]

I ve just had another look at this issue, only this time I ve used this Rail Forums own guide to ticketing which is very informative.......and below I ve just copied and pasted a piece from it.


Multi-journey tickets

Multi-journey tickets, such as Season tickets, Day Rangers, Rovers etc cannot, as a general rule, be "excessed".


The above was posted by Oscar who is a fares advisor on here , maybe he can help with this one.

If I read this correctly, the point is being missed

What we are discussing here is excessing a ticket, likely a SINGLE or RETURN into something else that wasn't available at the opportunity to purchase

The above quote is totally different and says you cannot take, for example, a ROVER and excess it to an alternative product

 

[Flamingo]

I have to say, I can count on one finger the number of times I've been asked to sell a rover, (the passenger knew how to do it), and don't even need that for condition 3.

 

[reb0118]

Multi-journey tickets

Multi-journey tickets, such as Season tickets, Day Rangers, Rovers etc cannot, as a general rule, be "excessed".


The above was posted by Oscar who is a fares advisor on here , maybe he can help with this one.

For what it is worth it was definitely possible to excess (e.g. overdistance) a season ticket on the old SPORTIS machine. It was probably not correct to do but then there were a lot of things that you should not have done with SPORTIS.*




*Such as microwaving it to wipe the memory or placing the batteries in the "pie warmer" of the guards van to boost their charge and then forgetting about them!

 

[Moonshot]

If I read this correctly, the point is being missed

What we are discussing here is excessing a ticket, likely a SINGLE or RETURN into something else that wasn't available at the opportunity to purchase

The above quote is totally different and says you cannot take, for example, a ROVER and excess it to an alternative product

Thats not the way I ve read it at all......so maybe Oscar can help anyway.

But either way, if we look at things in good old plain english, the idea of part exchange of one thing for another is nothing new. I can walk into a retail unit and buy a basic model hairdryer......if I then realise after I have paid for it that I ve got the wrong model and I wanted the deluxe version which is more expensive I can simply walk back in with the receipt, give it back and then just pay the difference for the new item. But the rail term for that is " excess ".

But as Flamingo points out, sales of Rovers are small, and in fact I dont think I ve seen an Evening Ranger yet anyway, which is hardly suprising when you consider that the vast majority of passengers are just making Point A to Point B journeys, one of the longest ones in GMPTE area covered by the Ranger on its own is Blackrod to Manchester Airport which is £2.10

 

[Oscar]

No, Crossover is right, Rangers and Rovers can't be excessed to other Rangers and Rovers. There's nothing which says singles or returns can be excessed to a Ranger or Rover, but I think it's clear that this should be done when the Ranger or Rover is not available because of Condition 3. I think you'd struggle to find staff who'd do this in other circumstances.

I agree that it's understandable than staff don't know how to do this, though staff should be prepared to look up the relevant guidance when unusual ticketing issues occur. I think very few passengers buy Rangers and Rovers largely because they're not aware that they exist or they're not aware of how to buy them, not just because most are making Point A to Point B journeys.

 

[Moonshot]

No, Crossover is right, Rangers and Rovers can't be excessed to other Rangers and Rovers. There's nothing which says singles or returns can be excessed to a Ranger or Rover, but I think it's clear that this should be done when the Ranger or Rover is not available because of Condition 3. I think you'd struggle to find staff who'd do this in other circumstances.

I agree that it's understandable than staff don't know how to do this, though staff should be prepared to look up the relevant guidance when unusual ticketing issues occur. I think very few passengers buy Rangers and Rovers largely because they're not aware that they exist or they're not aware of how to buy them, not just because most are making Point A to Point B journeys.

OK.....if you were aware that a ticket office was closed and that the TVM didnt sell the type of ticket that you wanted, but you were aware that the guards avantix machine did, surely the simplest thing to do would be to hop on a train and just approach the guard for said ticket? As a guard myself , I would happily sell that.

 

[Oscar]

OK.....if you were aware that a ticket office was closed and that the TVM didnt sell the type of ticket that you wanted, but you were aware that the guards avantix machine did, surely the simplest thing to do would be to hop on a train and just approach the guard for said ticket? As a guard myself , I would happily sell that.

I agree, however according to the letter of the Conditions of Carriage this is a form a fare evasion. I'd suggest having a word with the guard before boarding.

 

[Moonshot]

I agree, however according to the letter of the Conditions of Carriage this is a form a fare evasion. I'd suggest having a word with the guard before boarding.

Well I certainly dont carry around the Conditions of Carriage booklet with me as part of my work kit - I m not actually required to either. I myself ( and i suspect a lot of other guards as well ) would simply sell the ticket that the customer wanted, If part of a job description for a guard was to deliver outstanding customer service ( which it is ), then surely the ability to use discretion comes as a key skill in delivering that customer service?

Guards on duty do get notified ( via Blackberry ) of where ticket offices are closed when they normally are not, and also where TVMs are not functional, but to what extent guards read these the moment an e mail is delivered is rather dependent on what other duties a guard is carrying out in the first place - and I can safely say that we are not allowed to use them whilst carrying out safety critical duties.

 

[maniacmartin]

It would be easier for everyone involvedto just buy the ticket from the guard, but there's always the chance you will meet a guard or RPI who wants you to follow the letter of the NRCoC and could report you for not boarding with a valid ticket.

 

[Moonshot]

It would be easier for everyone involvedto just buy the ticket from the guard, but there's always the chance you will meet a guard or RPI who wants you to follow the letter of the NRCoC and could report you for not boarding with a valid ticket.

I d be interested in seeing a survey of guards asking how many would do that? I defo wouldnt if the customer wanted to pay for a ticket and why should I when I get commission on ticket sales?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I d be interested in seeing a survey of guards asking how many would do that? I defo wouldnt if the customer wanted to pay for a ticket and why should I when I get commission on ticket sales?

Guards generally wouldn't.

But we have a steady stream of complaints on here from people who didn't buy before boarding, the guard didn't get round, they tried to buy at the ticket barrier and were charged £80 by Northern because of it. It's not a risk I'd want to take without a letter from Northern stating that I can buy on board if the TVM doesn't list the ticket I want to buy. Especially as NRCoC says I should buy something if the ticket I actually want is not available.

 

[Moonshot]

Guards generally wouldn't.

But we have a steady stream of complaints on here from people who didn't buy before boarding, the guard didn't get round, they tried to buy at the ticket barrier and were charged £80 by Northern because of it. It's not a risk I'd want to take without a letter from Northern stating that I can buy on board if the TVM doesn't list the ticket I want to buy. Especially as NRCoC says I should buy something if the ticket I actually want is not available.

Is it possible to collect a rover ticket at a TVM using the online way of ordering and then collecting a ticket at a TVM if the TVM itself does not offer such ticket?

 

[bb21]

Not that I am aware of.

Those who allow you to purchase Rangers and Rovers online require a few days' notice so that they are posted out.

 

[Moonshot]

Not that I am aware of.

Those who allow you to purchase Rangers and Rovers online require a few days' notice so that they are posted out.

In effect the TVM acts as a printer in the scenario I mentioned .....obviously we dont have ticket stock in our own homes, so maybe the solution is to tweak the technology so as to allow this?

 

[maniacmartin]

Rovers and rangers are not currently supported by the ToD system. RSP may add this functionality in the future

 

[bb21]

I don't think there is any technological barrier to that, just willpower.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't think there is any technological barrier to that, just willpower.

I ll ask the question next time I bump into a colleague at Northern who is involved in online sales.....I ll post the reaction on here.

 

[Haywain]

But either way, if we look at things in good old plain english, the idea of part exchange of one thing for another is nothing new. I can walk into a retail unit and buy a basic model hairdryer......if I then realise after I have paid for it that I ve got the wrong model and I wanted the deluxe version which is more expensive I can simply walk back in with the receipt, give it back and then just pay the difference for the new item. But the rail term for that is " excess ".

Supermarket analogies don't work, as we well know. And the example you have given is similar to upgrading from Standard to First class, or from Off Peak to Anytime. Unfortunately, what the OP tried to do was more akin to buying a can of baked beans at the corner shop and then trying to exchange for the hairdryer at an electrical store. Condition 3, unfortunately, is written on the assumption that as excess fare can be issued and in this case it can't be. And, for the record, the TIS I am most familiar with will not allow an excess to a Rover or Ranger so it wouldn't be down to staff 'awkwardness' that it couldn't be done.

 

[Moonshot]

Supermarket analogies don't work, as we well know. And the example you have given is similar to upgrading from Standard to First class, or from Off Peak to Anytime. Unfortunately, what the OP tried to do was more akin to buying a can of baked beans at the corner shop and then trying to exchange for the hairdryer at an electrical store. Condition 3, unfortunately, is written on the assumption that as excess fare can be issued and in this case it can't be. And, for the record, the TIS I am most familiar with will not allow an excess to a Rover or Ranger so it wouldn't be down to staff 'awkwardness' that it couldn't be done.

So in reality as I ve mentioned before, the only thing stopping the transaction as described in the OP is a technical one. Which in actual fact was got around anyway because the OP actually managed to get the required ticket. ?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Surely the issue is not about 'excessing' a ticket, nor changing ones mind, nor the suitability of the software / technology.

It is about the requirement placed upon the passenger to buy a ticket before commencing their journey (at risk of large 'fine' if failing to do so), even if the ticket they want cannot be sold to them by the ticket office / machine / guard.

The instruction is quite clear - buy a ticket that entitles you to make at least part of the journey - then upgrade it soon as is reasonably practicable. For the members of the rail industry posting on this forum, who choose to be in denial, section 3 is reproduced below.

Any member of staff, presented with such a request, should comply with it, for it is the law. Certain staff at Manchester Piccadilly need to sort themselves out.

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

It says, in simple words 'the price you pay will be reduced....' That means deducted there and then, not paying the full amount for a new ticket then claiming a refund which may take several weeks to arrive.

Now then, if you boarded at Burnage, and bought a single to Mauldeth Road, thus complying with condition 3 as it is at least part of your journey, how could anyone stop you walking straight through the ticket line at Piccallilly so long as you honestly intended to upgrade your ticket

 

[Moonshot]

Surely the issue is not about 'excessing' a ticket, nor changing ones mind, nor the suitability of the software / technology.

It is about the requirement placed upon the passenger to buy a ticket before commencing their journey (at risk of large 'fine' if failing to do so), even if the ticket they want cannot be sold to them by the ticket office / machine / guard.

The instruction is quite clear - buy a ticket that entitles you to make at least part of the journey - then upgrade it soon as is reasonably practicable. For the members of the rail industry posting on this forum, who choose to be in denial, section 3 is reproduced below.

Any member of staff, presented with such a request, should comply with it, for it is the law. Certain staff at Manchester Piccadilly need to sort themselves out.

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

It says, in simple words 'the price you pay will be reduced....' That means deducted there and then, not paying the full amount for a new ticket then claiming a refund which may take several weeks to arrive.

Now then, if you boarded at Burnage, and bought a single to Mauldeth Road, thus complying with condition 3 as it is at least part of your journey, how could anyone stop you walking straight through the ticket line at Piccallilly so long as you honestly intended to upgrade your ticket

Do we include paypoint outlets or the ability to book online in all that? I m not sure I m in denial either....until this thread was instigated, I never realised this minor issue existed. Now that I am, i ve already suggested one or two ways it could be improved.....I m certainly not one for going around saying the industry is perfect.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

OK.....if you were aware that a ticket office was closed and that the TVM didnt sell the type of ticket that you wanted, but you were aware that the guards avantix machine did, surely the simplest thing to do would be to hop on a train and just approach the guard for said ticket? As a guard myself , I would happily sell that.

And the first person you meet on boarding the train is a Revenue Protection Officer / Inspector who has got his unfriendly head on. £80 please or a criminal record. After all, as people are sooooo quick to point out, not buying a ticket is a strict liability offence.

 

[Moonshot]

And the first person you meet on boarding the train is a Revenue Protection Officer / Inspector who has got his unfriendly head on. £80 please or a criminal record. After all, as people are sooooo quick to point out, not buying a ticket is a strict liability offence.

I cant qualify that ..... but to help out, maybe you can give me some idea of the scale of this issue in so much as how many of the 4 million passengers a day does this actually happen to ? I do so like facts and figures to back up a point.....and to prove it as I mentioned somewhere else earlier.....Northern Rail Conductors issue 800 UPFNs a month across the Northern network, the vast majority of which go to court because the passenger has not settled within 21 days.

 

[hounddog]

. Condition 3, unfortunately, is written on the assumption that as excess fare can be issued and in this case it can't be. And, for the record, the TIS I am most familiar with will not allow an excess to a Rover or Ranger so it wouldn't be down to staff 'awkwardness' that it couldn't be done.

Shouldn't the systems be designed to comply with the rules rather than the other way round?

 

[Moonshot]

Shouldn't the systems be designed to comply with the rules rather than the other way round?

Absolutely yes they should.....hence my reasoning that the issue is a technical one preventing what is a very minor transaction in the scale of things.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Do we include paypoint outlets or the ability to book online in all that? I m not sure I m in denial either....until this thread was instigated, I never realised this minor issue existed. Now that I am, i ve already suggested one or two ways it could be improved.....I m certainly not one for going around saying the industry is perfect.

It's not a minor issue if you regularly board at an unstaffed station (or closed ticket office or limited TVM or permit to travel) and regularly use rover / ranger / wayfarer tickets. Hence my earlier question about whether other operators sell such tickets on-line - which would solve the problem for those planning ahead but not for spur of the moment journeys. For a long while, London Midland Guards could not sell West Midlands Dayranger tickets (not the Centro ones, the wider area), which basically meant travelling without a ticket of any kind from Stone to some point within the West Midlands Penalty Fare area in the hope of finding a ticket office before an inspector found you.

As a passenger, I want to enjoy my day out, not be in fear of a criminal record through the inadequacies of the fragmented rail industry. See my previous thread re Rover Tickets with mismatching ticket numbers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I cant qualify that ..... but to help out, maybe you can give me some idea of the scale of this issue in so much as how many of the 4 million passengers a day does this actually happen to ? I do so like facts and figures to back up a point.....and to prove it as I mentioned somewhere else earlier.....Northern Rail Conductors issue 800 UPFNs a month across the Northern network, the vast majority of which go to court because the passenger has not settled within 21 days.

Only 800 in a month? I would have though they could do that many in a single peak hour heading into Manchester. Come on Northern, must try harder