Starting to feel like a bit of a broken record here but...
As I often do, I boarded the 1830 from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Piccadilly and wanted to buy an Evening Ranger both yesterday and today.
Yesterday I bought a single to Manchester for £1.80 from the ticket machine, because the ticket office was closed. I asked the guard on the train for an Evening Ranger, and presented the single and 70p, but he said "The best way of doing that is at the station." to which I replied "Oh, you cant part-exchange it onboard?" "No, but they will at Piccadilly". Similar story with the STM people at the 'barrier' at Piccadilly: "Err - I can sell you an Evening Ranger but only for £2.50. And I can't excess a single into a ranger with this machine so..." I suggested heading to the ticket office, which the STM man agreed with. I queued up at the ticket office and asked for an Evening Ranger, placing bot the ticket and the 70p on the counter. The clerk said "£2.50 please." and I gestured at what I had offered, to which he looked entirely blank and said "£2.50 please" again. So I picked the ticket up and explained that I had just travelled from Mauldeth Road and I had bought this ticket, with a value of £1.80, to begin my journey. He took the ticket and said that it wasn't possible to excess a single into a ranger. I explained that I wasn't asking for an excess, but I wanted to part-exchange the ticket for an Evening Ranger. He took it and looked at it for some time, before disappearing. A few minutes later he returned, pressed some buttons on the TIS and then went looking through the cupboards behind the counter before returning with an A4 pad and said "Right. The only way we can do this is with a refund form."
I filled in the form with my surname and initial and address and signedd it, stating "Unble to purchase Evening Ranger at Mauldeth Road." as the reason for refund. Following this he tendered the 70p and issued the ticket. I commented that it would be easier for both of us if the ticket office at Mauldeth Road were open later. He didn't seem to share the sentiment, replying "As an Evening Ranger is a Northern Rail product, what would actually help would be for them to make it available from the machines." - I restrained myself from pointing out that it (along with any other Ranger ever) isn't available from any of the VT machines either, and left.
It had taken a while and I wasn't sure if it had been done correctly, but I had gotten the right ticket in the end, so I thought I might as well not bother contacting Northern or VT about it, however...
Today I arrived at Mauldeth Road in the same circumstances and bought a ticket from the machine - but I accidentally bought a return in my haste. Not to worry I thought, it is only £1.90 and the Evening Ranger is still £2.50. I didn't see the guard on the train and just showed the ticket to the STM contractors rather than asking for the Ranger from them because of what I had been told the previous day.
I queued up at the ticket office at Manchester Picc but didn't notice immediately when I was called forward and was shouted a few times. The person directly in front of me in the queue had been called to the same window and moved to the side in order to fill in a Railcard application form. I passed my tickets to the clerk and asked for a part-exchange to an Evening Ranger. She said "You didn't buy these here, did you?" "No, I have just travelled from Mauldeth Road", I responded. "Right, well it can't be done in any case if you travelled before half past six and we can't excess a return to a ranger." I assured her I had not travelled before 1830 and that I wasn't asking for an excess, but for a part-exchange into an Evening Ranger. She insisted that it would not be possible to issue me with the Evening Ranger in exchange for 60p and put the tickets back on the counter, before saying "You bought these from Northern Rail. We are Virgin Trains. If you want that doing, you will need to go to Northern at Oxford Road or Victoria, it can't be done here." I asked what I was supposed to do if I wanted an Evening Ranger when the ticket office at Mauldeth Road was closed. She replied that Evening Rangers can be issued by the guard on the train. I then asked if she was saying I should ignore the ticket machine at Mauldeth Road when the ticket office is closed. She said:
"Look, if there is nobody there at the ticket office when you arrive you will just have to get your ticket on the train if it is a Ranger and you clearly know your tickets (whatever that is supposed to mean!!!) - we cannot do this here."
"Do you think they will do it if I do go to Oxford Road?"
"Probably not" *shrug*
"Isn't it contrary to train company publicity not to buy before boarding where there is a machine available - and also to the Conditions of Carriage?"
"You will have to take that up with Northern Rail then."
"What do I need to ask Northern for? This [gesturing at my tickets] is exactly what it says to do in Condition 3 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."
"I know exactly what it says in the NRCoC, do not start telling me how to do my job I have worked here for 10 years."
"I am not telling you how to do your job. Can you get Condition 3 up and we will have a look at it?"
"No I would literally have to print all of the pages of it out, we don't keep copies of it anymore."
"I'm happy to wait."
"No, I have got to serve this gentleman now."
The man had finished filling in his railcard application and interjected "Ee-arr mate go on, I'm doing this now." - and the clerk said "Bye", so I said "I'm getting fed up you using it as an excuse that this is a Virgin Trains ticket office - that is hardly my fault." to which I got "Well it is not mine either." back. What fantastic customer service!
And this random man (who really should have been asked to go and join the back of the queue again for being so foolish as not to fill the form in first) had taken apparently their side so I didn't fancy arguing with both of them. I wish I'd stood my ground now and asked to speak to a manager, but I get the feeling they would have backed her up entirely anyway.
As it happened I had time to go to Oxford Road and went to the ticket office there. I passed the tickets and asked for the Ranger, the clerk said again that he didn't think it was possible to excess a return into a ranger but would see what he could do. He managed to refund the tickets back to my card (he asked me to put it in the machine and then I got a Refund receipt) and wrote VOID on the tickets, then sold me the £2.50 Evening Ranger with a new card transaction. This had the desired effect, but was clearly a different process to what had happened the day before, and I wonder if either are correct. Both are considerably better than simply refusing point blank, or bringing the cross-TOC issue in (doesn't it say in the TSA that this should never be a reason to refuse to undertake a transaction? Certainly I can't think why it's relevant who operates the ticket office in these circumstances). Doing it this way still leaves the passenger with the difference missing from their account for several days until it clears.
What I would like to know is, please:
In addition to this, I'm very concerned about what VT think they can't do about transactions that relate to tickets 'for' other ToCs. I've been told in the past that I can't have a refund on a TPE advance where the train was cancelled and I said I didn't want to travel because only a TPE ticket office would be able to do that, so I would have to go to Leeds (!!!) for that. It seems there's a sort of institutional policy at this ticket office about what is and is not done.
Many Thanks
K
As I often do, I boarded the 1830 from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Piccadilly and wanted to buy an Evening Ranger both yesterday and today.
Yesterday I bought a single to Manchester for £1.80 from the ticket machine, because the ticket office was closed. I asked the guard on the train for an Evening Ranger, and presented the single and 70p, but he said "The best way of doing that is at the station." to which I replied "Oh, you cant part-exchange it onboard?" "No, but they will at Piccadilly". Similar story with the STM people at the 'barrier' at Piccadilly: "Err - I can sell you an Evening Ranger but only for £2.50. And I can't excess a single into a ranger with this machine so..." I suggested heading to the ticket office, which the STM man agreed with. I queued up at the ticket office and asked for an Evening Ranger, placing bot the ticket and the 70p on the counter. The clerk said "£2.50 please." and I gestured at what I had offered, to which he looked entirely blank and said "£2.50 please" again. So I picked the ticket up and explained that I had just travelled from Mauldeth Road and I had bought this ticket, with a value of £1.80, to begin my journey. He took the ticket and said that it wasn't possible to excess a single into a ranger. I explained that I wasn't asking for an excess, but I wanted to part-exchange the ticket for an Evening Ranger. He took it and looked at it for some time, before disappearing. A few minutes later he returned, pressed some buttons on the TIS and then went looking through the cupboards behind the counter before returning with an A4 pad and said "Right. The only way we can do this is with a refund form."
I filled in the form with my surname and initial and address and signedd it, stating "Unble to purchase Evening Ranger at Mauldeth Road." as the reason for refund. Following this he tendered the 70p and issued the ticket. I commented that it would be easier for both of us if the ticket office at Mauldeth Road were open later. He didn't seem to share the sentiment, replying "As an Evening Ranger is a Northern Rail product, what would actually help would be for them to make it available from the machines." - I restrained myself from pointing out that it (along with any other Ranger ever) isn't available from any of the VT machines either, and left.
It had taken a while and I wasn't sure if it had been done correctly, but I had gotten the right ticket in the end, so I thought I might as well not bother contacting Northern or VT about it, however...
Today I arrived at Mauldeth Road in the same circumstances and bought a ticket from the machine - but I accidentally bought a return in my haste. Not to worry I thought, it is only £1.90 and the Evening Ranger is still £2.50. I didn't see the guard on the train and just showed the ticket to the STM contractors rather than asking for the Ranger from them because of what I had been told the previous day.
I queued up at the ticket office at Manchester Picc but didn't notice immediately when I was called forward and was shouted a few times. The person directly in front of me in the queue had been called to the same window and moved to the side in order to fill in a Railcard application form. I passed my tickets to the clerk and asked for a part-exchange to an Evening Ranger. She said "You didn't buy these here, did you?" "No, I have just travelled from Mauldeth Road", I responded. "Right, well it can't be done in any case if you travelled before half past six and we can't excess a return to a ranger." I assured her I had not travelled before 1830 and that I wasn't asking for an excess, but for a part-exchange into an Evening Ranger. She insisted that it would not be possible to issue me with the Evening Ranger in exchange for 60p and put the tickets back on the counter, before saying "You bought these from Northern Rail. We are Virgin Trains. If you want that doing, you will need to go to Northern at Oxford Road or Victoria, it can't be done here." I asked what I was supposed to do if I wanted an Evening Ranger when the ticket office at Mauldeth Road was closed. She replied that Evening Rangers can be issued by the guard on the train. I then asked if she was saying I should ignore the ticket machine at Mauldeth Road when the ticket office is closed. She said:
"Look, if there is nobody there at the ticket office when you arrive you will just have to get your ticket on the train if it is a Ranger and you clearly know your tickets (whatever that is supposed to mean!!!) - we cannot do this here."
"Do you think they will do it if I do go to Oxford Road?"
"Probably not" *shrug*
"Isn't it contrary to train company publicity not to buy before boarding where there is a machine available - and also to the Conditions of Carriage?"
"You will have to take that up with Northern Rail then."
"What do I need to ask Northern for? This [gesturing at my tickets] is exactly what it says to do in Condition 3 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."
"I know exactly what it says in the NRCoC, do not start telling me how to do my job I have worked here for 10 years."
"I am not telling you how to do your job. Can you get Condition 3 up and we will have a look at it?"
"No I would literally have to print all of the pages of it out, we don't keep copies of it anymore."
"I'm happy to wait."
"No, I have got to serve this gentleman now."
The man had finished filling in his railcard application and interjected "Ee-arr mate go on, I'm doing this now." - and the clerk said "Bye", so I said "I'm getting fed up you using it as an excuse that this is a Virgin Trains ticket office - that is hardly my fault." to which I got "Well it is not mine either." back. What fantastic customer service!
And this random man (who really should have been asked to go and join the back of the queue again for being so foolish as not to fill the form in first) had taken apparently their side so I didn't fancy arguing with both of them. I wish I'd stood my ground now and asked to speak to a manager, but I get the feeling they would have backed her up entirely anyway.
As it happened I had time to go to Oxford Road and went to the ticket office there. I passed the tickets and asked for the Ranger, the clerk said again that he didn't think it was possible to excess a return into a ranger but would see what he could do. He managed to refund the tickets back to my card (he asked me to put it in the machine and then I got a Refund receipt) and wrote VOID on the tickets, then sold me the £2.50 Evening Ranger with a new card transaction. This had the desired effect, but was clearly a different process to what had happened the day before, and I wonder if either are correct. Both are considerably better than simply refusing point blank, or bringing the cross-TOC issue in (doesn't it say in the TSA that this should never be a reason to refuse to undertake a transaction? Certainly I can't think why it's relevant who operates the ticket office in these circumstances). Doing it this way still leaves the passenger with the difference missing from their account for several days until it clears.
What I would like to know is, please:
- What is the correct procedure for accepting a part-exchange of tickets in accordance with contion 3?
- How should I ask for these part-exchange payments in the way that makes it most clear what I am doing?
- Does Northern have a public or internal policy that relates to Condition 3?
- With it in mind that I have complained to VT twice before about being refused a Condition 3 Part Ex at this ticket office before, what is the best course of action going forward regarding this breach of NRCoC?
In addition to this, I'm very concerned about what VT think they can't do about transactions that relate to tickets 'for' other ToCs. I've been told in the past that I can't have a refund on a TPE advance where the train was cancelled and I said I didn't want to travel because only a TPE ticket office would be able to do that, so I would have to go to Leeds (!!!) for that. It seems there's a sort of institutional policy at this ticket office about what is and is not done.
Many Thanks
K
