Common misconceptions on this forum

[Manchester77]

When the 456s enter full service on South West Trains they will be used on the Lymington Shuttle even though they're based at Wimbledon Park!

All of northern rails fleet is dirty because Northern don't employ any cleaners and not because passengers can't be bothered to use bins or use the toilet properly.

Northern rail are the worst TOC ever and don't put in any investment whatsoever.

The island line would be much better operated as a heritage railway after all it operated with cascaded LU stock. (Not heard that recently but it usually comes up when the island line is discussed)

 

[thenorthern]

One I have heard recently is Scottish Independence is happening 100% and the rail network will change substantially from Independence meaning there will be no cross border trains ever.

 

[LBSCR Times]

You mean there are trains up north......

 

[Sacro]

You mean there are trains up north......

They're just busses with train wheels, if you're lucky there's a bogie inbetween!

 

[route:oxford]

One I have heard recently is Scottish Independence is happening 100% and the rail network will change substantially from Independence meaning there will be no cross border trains ever.

Mr Salmond seems quite confident that post 18th September Scotland will be free of the shackles of Westminster.

 

[Flamingo]

Where is this "Scotland" of which you speak?

 

[455driver]

Where is this "Scotland" of which you speak?

Its North of Watford, dont worry about it!

 

[6Gman]

TOCs have spare staff and stock sat around doing nothing which can be put into service at a moments notice but the TOCs prefer to run their trains crush loaded for a laugh.

Nice one!

 

[Flamingo]

I've looked at my map, it's a white blob and " Here be deep-fried Dragons" on it.

 

[47513 Severn]

One that seems to come up quite regularly is the old favourite "If a train isn't advertised as having first class you can use it with a standard ticket". Despite several lengthy threads I don't think anyone has ever come up with a definitive source for this, which I guess would have to be the NRCOC (which doesn't say anything of the sort).

Numerous "it's always been that way", "a guard told me", "I know my rights"etc, etc but never a proper source. Oddly it often seems to be those who quote the NRCOC as the ultimate gospel when it suits them (eg. the, now very boring, Gatwick Express operated by Southern debate) who seem to think it can be ignored in the unadvertised first class situation.

I believe using first class in such circumstances is always at the discretion of the TOC. Some actively publicise such permission being given on some routes but where they don't it is not a given even if people on a forum don't agree.

Sorry about the rant but that one is a real bugbear of mine.

47513

 

[PHILIPE]

"My idea for xxxxxx" which usually borders on assumptions that there would be enough resources, pathing etc., to accommodate anything that is dreamt up.

 

[KA4C]

Sending any complaint to the Managing Director will get it sorted personally by them immediately because they obviously have nothing better to do!

Any staff member who makes a mistake should be sacked or retrained.

Any fare dodger who writes into a certain section of the forum has obviously made a mistake despite altering their ticket or making one up in photoshop and everyone should bend over backwards to get them off on a technicality rather than let them face the music!*

People who post in that section always post all the facts and dont leave bits out that to suit their agenda.

All RPIs are rude, abusing and are difficult to understand.

TOCs have spare staff and stock sat around doing nothing which can be put into service at a moments notice but the TOCs prefer to run their trains crush loaded for a laugh.

Driving a train consists of pulling a few levers and pushing a few buttons, rules and route knowledge is just something made up by the drivers to make them sound clever and is totally irrelevant to the job.

Putting 'I assume' or 'I thought' at the beginning of a post means it is acceptable to post any insane wibble that comes into your head and anyone taking you to task is being nasty/a bully and it has nothing to do with the fact that we are sick of answering the same old wibble week after week.

And breath!


* This obviously does not apply to the genuine cases in that section.

Well that has saved me the typing!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

If you see a train that looks nice it can simply transferred to your own route with no cost and no impact on the route it comes from. 170/3s excluded from this!!!

 

[ryan125hst]

here are a few, more quotes than misconceptions but you can count them as misconceptions .
7. I am not a spotter I am an enthusiast

I'm guilty of that one!

I'm definitely not a spotter but I am a railway enthusiast - I'm more interested in signalling and seeing the network as a whole than the trains - so I'd say that's far from a misconception

That sound like me. I've never recorded train numbers and don't have any interest in doing so, probably because I don't travel by train frequently enough or see enough of the network to make it worthwhile. This may change when I get older and can afford to/have the time spend more time on trains.

I am, however, very interested in the operation railway, so signalling, diagramming, track layouts ect.

 

[Muzer]

One that seems to come up quite regularly is the old favourite "If a train isn't advertised as having first class you can use it with a standard ticket". Despite several lengthy threads I don't think anyone has ever come up with a definitive source for this, which I guess would have to be the NRCOC (which doesn't say anything of the sort).

Numerous "it's always been that way", "a guard told me", "I know my rights"etc, etc but never a proper source. Oddly it often seems to be those who quote the NRCOC as the ultimate gospel when it suits them (eg. the, now very boring, Gatwick Express operated by Southern debate) who seem to think it can be ignored in the unadvertised first class situation.

I believe using first class in such circumstances is always at the discretion of the TOC. Some actively publicise such permission being given on some routes but where they don't it is not a given even if people on a forum don't agree.

Sorry about the rant but that one is a real bugbear of mine.

47513

Entirely agree. The NRCoC hasn't contained such a clause since the recent change. For those who think it should be obvious that it works this way - why do you think so? Is it just because the first class isn't advertised in the timetable so it must not exist? That's like saying you can get on any train not advertised in the timetable for free because it's not advertised. It's just a nice extra to the timetable.

 

[Stats]

. the, now very boring, Gatwick Express operated by Southern debate

Ah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that this is now very boring, particularly when certain forum members bring it up at any mention of Gatwick Express even when it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Speaking of Gatwick Express another comon misconception on these forums is that:
Gatwick Express carries around fresh air all day. I must be very unlucky to keep choosing the services that are really busy.

 

[Cletus]

That we need another common misconceptions thread! Ha ha!

 

[alastair]

One that seems to come up quite regularly is the old favourite "If a train isn't advertised as having first class you can use it with a standard ticket". Despite several lengthy threads I don't think anyone has ever come up with a definitive source for this, which I guess would have to be the NRCOC (which doesn't say anything of the sort).

Numerous "it's always been that way", "a guard told me", "I know my rights"etc, etc but never a proper source. Oddly it often seems to be those who quote the NRCOC as the ultimate gospel when it suits them (eg. the, now very boring, Gatwick Express operated by Southern debate) who seem to think it can be ignored in the unadvertised first class situation.

I believe using first class in such circumstances is always at the discretion of the TOC. Some actively publicise such permission being given on some routes but where they don't it is not a given even if people on a forum don't agree.

Sorry about the rant but that one is a real bugbear of mine.

47513

Well,this is from this forum's Fares and Ticketing section:

First Class Fares and Advertisement of First Class Accommodation
Not all journeys that may be made using trains having first class accommodation, have first class fares available to purchase. This is more common for relatively short journeys over routes with infrequent first class trains. On the other hand, first class fares may be available for journeys that can only be made using first class accommodation very infrequently or not at all.

The availability of advertised first class accommodation on a train can be checked by consulting the public timetable, for example by checking on brtimes.com - if your chosen departure has a 1 symbol on a black background beneath it, the train has first class accommodation. It can occasionally happen that the provision of first class accommodation on a train doesn't agree with what is advertised in the timetable; in these cases the following applies:
First Class advertised, but train does not have first class
This may happen either because the train simply does not have any first class carriages or compartments, or because the first class accommodation has been declassified en-route, e.g. due to overcrowding, and passengers with standard class tickets have been permitted to use it. Assuming you hold a first class ticket, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.
First Class not advertised, but train has first class anyway
First Class is automatically declassified; anyone can travel in it even without a first class ticket. In this case first class ticket holders are not entitled to a refund.


It all sounds completely sensible and logical to me,so why do you think it is an "old favorite" and a "bugbear"? Just curious.

 

[Muzer]

Well,this is from this forum's Fares and Ticketing section:

First Class Fares and Advertisement of First Class Accommodation
Not all journeys that may be made using trains having first class accommodation, have first class fares available to purchase. This is more common for relatively short journeys over routes with infrequent first class trains. On the other hand, first class fares may be available for journeys that can only be made using first class accommodation very infrequently or not at all.

The availability of advertised first class accommodation on a train can be checked by consulting the public timetable, for example by checking on brtimes.com - if your chosen departure has a 1 symbol on a black background beneath it, the train has first class accommodation. It can occasionally happen that the provision of first class accommodation on a train doesn't agree with what is advertised in the timetable; in these cases the following applies:
First Class advertised, but train does not have first class
This may happen either because the train simply does not have any first class carriages or compartments, or because the first class accommodation has been declassified en-route, e.g. due to overcrowding, and passengers with standard class tickets have been permitted to use it. Assuming you hold a first class ticket, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.
First Class not advertised, but train has first class anyway
First Class is automatically declassified; anyone can travel in it even without a first class ticket. In this case first class ticket holders are not entitled to a refund.


It all sounds completely sensible and logical to me,so why do you think it is an "old favorite" and a "bugbear"? Just curious.

Why is it sensible and logical? Because it's in the (standard class) passenger's favour? Why should it automatically be declassified? Where is the source for that statement?

This forum is not an official source. Please give me an official source of any type that states explicitly or implies that unadvertised first class seating is automatically declassified.

 

[jon0844]

Driving a train consists of pulling a few levers and pushing a few buttons, rules and route knowledge is just something made up by the drivers to make them sound clever and is totally irrelevant to the job.

Pulling levers AND pushing buttons? Now come on, there's no way a driver would be able to do both!!

 

[Darren R]

One I have heard recently is Scottish Independence is happening 100% and the rail network will change substantially from Independence meaning there will be no cross border trains ever.

You've been listening to Alex Salmond too much!

 

[GatwickDepress]

Why is it sensible and logical? Because it's in the (standard class) passenger's favour? Why should it automatically be declassified? Where is the source for that statement?

This forum is not an official source. Please give me an official source of any type that states explicitly or implies that unadvertised first class seating is automatically declassified.

What about "standard class only" in schedule (diagrams are a sequence of workings, a schedule is a service, right?) data feeds provided by Network Rail?

 

[47513 Severn]

I don't have a big problem with first class being automatically declassified IF that is an official policy. My problem is that it isn't and yet people perpetuate the urban myth that it is. It is alarming that it's mentioned in the forum's fares guide, presumably there is a disclaimer somewhere in case someone comes unstuck following this advice?

I occasionally visit the money saving expert forum but usually become infuriated at the same kind of 'bloke in a pub' pseudo legal advice. Online misprice threads are a particular favourite. Say Curry's accidentally advertise a huge TV for £4.99 instead of £499, the thread will immediately fill with people declaring that they legally must sell it at that price and people believing them. This simply isn't true and never has been but it still gets spouted every time.

And don't get me started on "if they sell food they have to provide toilets by law"....

47513

 

[TheEdge]

I don't have a big problem with first class being automatically declassified IF that is an official policy. My problem is that it isn't and yet people perpetuate the urban myth that it is. It is alarming that it's mentioned in the forum's fares guide, presumably there is a disclaimer somewhere in case someone comes unstuck following this advice?

This. I've kicked people out of 1st Class many times on non-advertised services.

 

[alastair]

Why is it sensible and logical? Because it's in the (standard class) passenger's favour? Why should it automatically be declassified? Where is the source for that statement?

This forum is not an official source. Please give me an official source of any type that states explicitly or implies that unadvertised first class seating is automatically declassified.

Please calm down. I never said or implied that the forum was an official source and I have no idea if there is any any official information on this subject.

My last experience was on the Hastings/Ashford route. NRE clearly states that the train conveys standard accom. only. It only quotes a standard class fare and does not offer a first class upgrade. The NRT says "all services in this timetable convey standard accommodation only unless otherwise shown" and the train does not have the (1) symbol. The train has first class which I sat in. The guard hid in the back cab for the entire journey so I have no idea if I was right or wrong but as a fare paying passenger I still maintain that it was logical that I should sit there. After all,there cannot have been any fare-paying first class passengers who might have objected can there? Also,the train was pretty full and if the 6 or so in FC had moved it would have made standard even fuller.

It would be interesting to know why Southern have always advertised this service as standard only when the only diesel trains they have all have first class.

 

[Muzer]

My last experience was on the Hastings/Ashford route. NRE clearly states that the train conveys standard accom. only. It only quotes a standard class fare and does not offer a first class upgrade. The NRT says "all services in this timetable convey standard accommodation only unless otherwise shown" and the train does not have the (1) symbol.

OK. This IS the most compelling evidence I've seen (I've heard it before but had forgotten about it), but it doesn't quite do it for me. I wonder if anyone has actually asked a lawyer? The way I interpret it is that "unless otherwise shown" could equally well be shown in the timetable as by a sign saying "first class" in the train itself. I'm not sure, though - I'm not a lawyer, as I said, but I wouldn't like to test it should there be an RPI on board.

After all,there cannot have been any fare-paying first class passengers who might have objected can there?

People who have through tickets from some journey that does have first class.

Also,the train was pretty full and if the 6 or so in FC had moved it would have made standard even fuller.

That's fair enough - but I would always still ask the guard or some other member of staff, or check the screens (they frequently tell you that first class is declassified automatically on many Southern services, I believe).

It would be interesting to know why Southern have always advertised this service as standard only when the only diesel trains they have all have first class.

Indeed, a bit strange.




I don't have a problem with people taking the personal choice to sit in first when a train is advertised as standard only. I agree that there is a little ambiguity, possibly. What I don't agree with is telling people unambiguously that it's absolutely fine, since I believe it's not at all clear whether it's fine or not, and I would not like to be the one to test it by being challenged and having to use that (rather flimsy-sounding) argument.

 

[hassaanhc]

The services I normally use come under this "standard class only in timetable but train has first class section" (well mainly on weekdays). I've been travelling regularly over the last few months and only once has the guard kicked me and others out, which I accepted (although I almost disputed it but decided to just move ). I was more annoyed about him having not said anything for the previous 20 minutes as I was in clear view of him, and the train was busier by then which made it difficult to move about with a suitcase in a 3+2 seating layout

 

[313103]

That Bob Crow and the RMT always called a strike at the drop of a hat.
That because Bob Crow died the RMT will change its philosophy.
That the RMT don't care about the passenger, and use the passenger in its battles with Management.
That the RMT know nothing about railways and live in the Dinosaur age.
That the RMT are not really interested in safety, but keeping jobs for the boys and girls.

Now that's a couple of misconceptions that I can think off, not bad for having 4 month sabbatical from this forum.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....It would be interesting to know why Southern have always advertised this service as standard only when the only diesel trains they have all have first class.

The 171s have first class accommodation because they are used on services with advertised first class accommodation (Uckfield-London Bridge).

 

[richw]

That its the TOCs fault for every single delay, this irritates me especially when it's down to a suicide or cable theft,