Comment piece in Passenger Transport - "The railway risks becoming irrelevant"

[GRALISTAIR]

Indeed - Ryanair is hardly the bar to aim for!

Maybe not but they are successful. They give people what they want - low-cost flights to many places. They would not be remaining in business or expanding airports served if they did not do that.

I am not a Ryanair fan - but I totally respect what they do and have achieved.

 

[reddragon]

I don't particularly hate her , but did you see the scenes when she died . They were dancing in the street up north and her new statue has been attacked.

She destroyed British Industry, public services and peoples rights whilst selling off assets to rich people. Whilst there were benefits, these were mainly for business not working people.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I do not want to railway to be rundown, quite the opposite, I would love it to grow and to become the silver bullet of transport.

Agreed

I do however want them to be run efficiently with an eye to cost effectiveness so the ticket cost and subsidy are money well spent or invested.

Agreed

Why is it improper for members of the public to have an opinion on the costs of operating a public service and the treatment of public workers?

It isn't improper. It is totally reasonable imho

It seems from all that is being posted on these forums that the industry needs massive upheaval and improvements/modernisation of working practices. That isn’t the same as wanting massive closures, people not to get a reasonable pay-rise or mass compulsory redundancies. mLike it or not passengers and tax payers are stakeholders in the railways and are entitled to an opinion. In my opinion….

In my opinion too!

 

[43066]

I don't particularly hate her , but did you see the scenes when she died . They were dancing in the street up north and her new statue has been attacked.

That’s a reflection of the increasingly uncivilised state of the country we now live in sadly.

I spent 25 years as a Union rep, supporting members through multiple disputes with breaks, coming back one last time when bad management returned.

What I learnt is that 50% of the problem is management and 50% is the staff and that sensible balanced negotiations are essential. You have to understand the position management were in and work with them for the best possible outcome. Learn what the staff really wanted and what mattered to them, then create a route of balance that had the best outcome for both members and the business, but not what the management always wanted.

My last stint was with some appalling management and it was a battle both sides lost. You cannot win them all.

I find that hard to believe.

If it’s true maybe you should respect the fact that the membership of a different union in a different industry has voted overwhelmingly to take this action at considerable cost to themselves. Maybe just maybe those same hard working reps and union members know something you don’t and believe it has some justification?

Maybe not but they are successful. They give people what they want - low-cost flights to many places. They would not be remaining in business or expanding airports served if they did not do that.

I am not a Ryanair fan - but I totally respect what they do and have achieved.

What exactly have they achieved? Treating their workforce like dirt, to the point of illegality, just to give Daily Mail reading chavs the ability to fly to the Costas for a pittance, wrecking the environment in the process?

10/10 for that…

 

[ComUtoR]

I don’t know about the motivation for every poster but I don’t work in rail. I do not want to railway to be rundown, quite the opposite, I would love it to grow and to become the silver bullet of transport.

I work in rail and whilst I'd love it to be a 'silver bullet' the railway is far to antiquated and stuck between a rock and a hard place I don't think it ever will. The railway is very good at mass transit into and out of cities. It is horrendous for local travel. The railway just wasn't built that way. However, the railway needs to be better at what it does do.

I do however want them to be run efficiently with an eye to cost effectiveness so the ticket cost and subsidy are money well spent or invested.

100%

It seems from all that is being posted on these forums that the industry needs massive upheaval and improvements/modernisation of working practices. That isn’t the same as wanting massive closures, people not to get a reasonable pay-rise or mass compulsory redundancies.

I wish it wasn't so. The people in charge often see cuts as the best way to save money. Like you, I just don't agree and see the huge wastage and inefficiency of the railway. Tackle that and I think things will change. Constant cuts will solve nothing.

Like it or not passengers and tax payers are stakeholders in the railways and are entitled to an opinion.

Passengers yes, taxpayers no. The important distinction being that a tax payer just wants to pay less tax and often doesn't see the bigger picture. We live in a welfare state with tax going into a big pot and the government dishing it out; that isn't going to change anytime soon.

As a passenger I am more focussed on how its spent on the railway. Old, decrepit rolling stock, working practices, glacial change, broken infrastructure, etc. just needs more than just a patch job. Importantly as a passenger I am acutely aware of what the issues are. As a taxpayer, I just want to pay less tax.

 

[reddragon]

RAIL 958 has an extensive feature on this on page 3

quote

A strike would be catastrophic. Despite this, there are clear signs that the rail industry, the Treasury and DfT are all failing to adequately comprehend the new realities and that the ways of the past are no longer viable.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What exactly have they achieved? Treating their workforce like dirt, to the point of illegality, just to give Daily Mail reading chavs the ability to fly to the Costas for a pittance, wrecking the environment in the process?

10/10 for that…

What did the commuter railways in London (now in decline ) achieve? gave Financial Times and Times and other chavs the ability to travel into Central London to make loadsa money while the rest of the country did not do as well? I repeat Ryanair give people low cost flights and can help challenge the railways and help make them irrelevant to keep us on topic. Ryanair have achieved employing 17500 people - thereabouts. People continue to work for them and indeed clamour to join them. They serve 225 destinations and have circa 500 planes. Not too bad IMHO.

 

[Evolution]

Same here.

I’ve never been less concerned about my own job security than now. Post pandemic, I’m still regularly being begged to do overtime, still driving to Victorian semaphore signals on a regular basis.

The eccentric comments on here about the railway becoming irrelevant are completely alien to me and my colleagues based on what’s happening at the sharp end, in the real world. Even this government realise that the railway remains highly relevant, hence why it was kept running throughout the pandemic, including the brief few weeks where we were genuinely carting fresh air around. Now long forgotten given that passengers numbers are pretty much back to where they were…

Absolutely- I totally echo your sentiments, where I am we are still short of drivers and as you do have parts with AB sections, zero concerns for job security here too. It's almost like been in a parrell universe listening to some of the comments on here from people who aren't in the trenches day to day.

The reality is the industry is almost back to normal post covid, most of my trains (especially lesiure travel) are full and standing, but to hear some of the people on here you would think no one uses the railways anymore!

I suppose that's what happens after years of gaslighting from various corners of the media. Ah well, certainly kept me entertained whilst sitting spare (opps I might have put petrol on the fire ).

 

[Envy123]

What did the commuter railways in London (now in decline ) achieve? gave Financial Times and Times and other chavs the ability to travel into Central London to make loadsa money while the rest of the country did not do as well?

While it's true that it allows locals in the regions to earn London wages, it also allows former Londoners like myself get on the property ladder. To be honest, I believe that London prices would be a lot more like San Francisco's, without the commuter railways.

 

[Dryce]

What exactly have they achieved? Treating their workforce like dirt, to the point of illegality, just to give Daily Mail reading chavs the ability to fly to the Costas for a pittance, wrecking the environment in the process?

Well that's one of looking at it.

Another is:

They operate in a heavily regulated and international environment and have succeeded in pushing costs down and making their services available at low cost to a mass market - while maintaining profitability.​

I personally avoid them. But I have used them for business travel. And they have been more reliable and cheaper than than rail services to get from one end of the country to the other on those occasions.

As for the wrecking the environment in the process - well rail in its own coal hey day probably had a lot to answer for.

And while I tend to use rail mainly for business I would judge that a lot of the passengers I see around me are travelling for leisure purposes. So in that sense is rail any better or different.

And rail does expensive and pittance too - sometimes on the same routes. I've done some pretty long journeys for £5, £7, and under £15 over the last 10 years.

And as for chav's - I avoid services at certain times to avoid the experience of fellow passengers at the stations and on the railway.

One of the shifts in terms of the railway on some routes has been the emergence of the low cost airlines and air fare competition since the late 90s. The options on the Edinburgh and Glasgow routes to London, Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Southanpton made quite a difference. WCML and ECML rail fares benefit from this still to some extent.

 

[NI 271]

There are many many excellent guards who do this, but sadly there are also many more who spend the entire trip in the cab doing nothing else.

No there aren't, that's a lie. The (large) majority are of the former category, not the latter.

 

[Watershed]

Maybe not but they are successful. They give people what they want - low-cost flights to many places. They would not be remaining in business or expanding airports served if they did not do that.

I am not a Ryanair fan - but I totally respect what they do and have achieved.

Which would be fine if the railway were as cheap as Ryanair. But, as we all know, it generally isn't. Which is a problem when you're providing Ryanair levels of customer service.

 

[reddragon]

No there aren't, that's a lie. The (large) majority are of the former category, not the latter.

I regularly travel with a London operator on several routes. I have never seen the guard do anything other than dispatch

 

[Facing Back]

She destroyed British Industry, public services and peoples rights whilst selling off assets to rich people. Whilst there were benefits, these were mainly for business not working people.

British industry had made a pretty god job of destroying itself well ahead of Mrs Thatcher, The motor industry was a complete joke and the shipbuilding industry was uncompetitive against foreign competition.

Good for business and not for working people is a statement which I think sums up an attitude quite nicely. Businesses generally have 3 sets of stakeholders - those who own them, those who work in them and those who buy from them. By focusing only on one of these, the whole business suffers. There is a balance, we can argue the toss about where that balance should be.

Yes she sold off assets. She didn't believe in nationalisation. In many cases neither do I. She didn't see off the railways and I agree with her for that too.

We're never going to agree on the public services and people's rights part so best not to try.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Which would be fine if the railway were as cheap as Ryanair. But, as we all know, it generally isn't. Which is a problem when you're providing Ryanair levels of customer service.

I agree. Do Ryanair et all (include Easy Jet etc) have a slight role in (potentially) making the railways irrelevant? In my opinion, they contribute to the possibility.

Roads, buses/coaches, and AIR - all are competitors to railways and can make them a little less relevant. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Facing Back]

No there aren't, that's a lie. The (large) majority are of the former category, not the latter.

With respect I think calling it a lie is a bit harsh. You might disagree with the statement. My experience is that many trains with a second member of staff have that person invisible, many don't.

 

[wobman]

A Guard would much better be deployer providing information, checking tickets, running a buffet than sitting in the rear cab. That role was once invaluable but today is often of little or no value.

People obviously have little knowledge of the role of a train conductor, they do Check tickets.
Assistance in emergency situations.
Passeger evacuation in an emergency situation.
Assist passengers on trains with accessibility on & off trains.
Arrange assistance at station stops & ongoing connections.
Customer information for ticketing etc

This perception that they sit on the back cab, maybe they are in there arranging assistance/ taking to control / checking connections etc etc
Conductors that just hide on the back cab soon get found out, there sales figures are low & they get monitored plus a taking to.
There's unobtrusive monitoring/ assessments on board etc

It's a role that on non metro type services needs to be retained

 

[wobman]

I agree. Do Ryanair et all (include Easy Jet etc) have a slight role in (potentially) making the railways irrelevant? In my opinion, they contribute to the possibility.

Roads, buses/coaches, and AIR - all are competitors to railways and can make them a little less relevant. Just my 2 cents.

The airline industry receives huge amounts of indirect state subsidy, just Google this subject.

 

[NI 271]

I regularly travel with a London operator on several routes. I have never seen the guard do anything other than dispatch

Oh ok then, I'm wrong. You have seen the majority of guards on the handful of routes you catch, and the thousands of miles I travel across the country (mostly for work), with various TOCs, on trains each year, at all times of day, are obviously an outlier.

 

[ainsworth74]

The railway indeed delivers poor customer service a lot of the time. Probably not most of the time, but a significant minority of it.

Yes I'd broadly agree with that. Taken in the round (see a point I'll make in a moment).

I can honestly say I’ve generally found the customer service provided by the railway to be either largely non existent (on the “true” DOO network I use to commute on) or pretty good.

I would tend to agree my interaction with staff on the ground tends to be neutral at worst but usually very positive. That's probably because most staff don't exactly go to work with the thought of "how can a ruin someone's day today?" in mind, quite probably the opposite in fact!

Though I suspect I probably also benefit often, when things have gone wrong, from being the person who approaches saying "I don't suppose you can help me out with x because I know this isn't your fault but it'd really help me if you did" rather than huffing and puffing at them and moaning and blaming them for what's gone wrong. I contacted LNER on twitter not so long ago about an issue and the twitter bod apologised for the delay and when I joked back that unless they'd personally gone out there and sabotaged the railway they had no need to apologise they responded back saying "thank you so much it's felt like everyone is blaming me for everything today". I rather suspect I could have asked for a lot then and gotten. You catch more fly with honey etc etc.

Anyway! Staff in the ground. Usually fine, often excellent. Bad apples the exception.

But that's not all there is to customer service is there? I find the industry usually falls completely flat on face in the pre and post travel area.

Contacting a TOCs customer services is often nightmarish. It can take an eon to get a response. The responses are often wrong or incomplete. They'll dig in and fight over peanuts. They entire experience from start to finish is just woeful. I deal with the Department for Work and Pensions for a living and regularly the railway matches them for incompetence, intransigence and general awfulness.

Delay Repay is often terrible with valid claims rejected and buggy claim forms making anything but the most simple claims (i.e. one ticket, for one train, on one TOC) being tricky. Claims are rejected often very little or indeed no information is provided for you to work out why.

That whole side is woeful. And gives, in my view, a terrible impression.

That's quite apart from the stuff where it shoots itself in the foot. Like TOC Only tickets which cannot be excessed so a whole new ticket must be bought. Yes the customer should make sure they get the right train. But it's a lot easier to sell "I'm sorry sir but this ticket is only valid on X Trains not Z Trains, I'll have to excess you to the right fare. That'll be £1 please" than "This ticket it worthless, you'll have to buy a new one costing £20 and yes you can ask for a refund of the other but there'll be a £10 admin fee".

Woeful.

I can’t help but think there’s an element of unrealistic expectations on here - people will simultaneously moan about fares, outdated working practices and then lament the demise of HSTs with Pullman dining, horse hair stuffed seats etc. Enthusiasts (and for the record I’m one myself) are an *incredibly* tough audience.

To me those are less customer service and more the hard product itself. And I think the generation of trains we have our poorly equipped to compete on quality which I think is what we're going to need to do in this brave new world.

Indeed - Ryanair is hardly the bar to aim for!

Which is why it is so disappointing that rather than improving customer service, all passengers have received over the last 2 years is vicious timetable cuts, stock sent off-lease leading to overcrowding, unreliability due to insufficient traincrew, fare rises, and worsening terms and conditions. And now the prospect of a summer full of strikes.

And that is on top of all the other issues the railway had pre-Covid.

You have to wonder how much higher passenger numbers would be if even just a few of these issues were addressed.

Absolutely. It was quite clear for quite a while before Covid that the DfT/Treasury and the industry were operating on the basis that they didn't need to have a quality service and product because people would travel and buy seasons costing £x,000pa anyway. Or they'd travel and pay exorbitant walk-up or advance fares. I think thats a much tougher sell now. Not impossible, numbers are thankfully rebounding despite everything, but harder.

That’s very true, but you have to set realistic expectations as well, and in my own experiences rail has provided better customer service (whilst not perfect by any means) than other forms of transport. Is there room for improvement? Of course!

Seems we agree!

 

[Llandudno]

I spent 25 years as a Union rep, supporting members through multiple disputes with breaks, coming back one last time when bad management returned.

What I learnt is that 50% of the problem is management and 50% is the staff and that sensible balanced negotiations are essential. You have to understand the position management were in and work with them for the best possible outcome. Learn what the staff really wanted and what mattered to them, then create a route of balance that had the best outcome for both members and the business, but not what the management always wanted.

My last stint was with some appalling management and it was a battle both sides lost. You cannot win them all.

Probably the most sensible post I have read so far on the Industrial Relations dispute….!

 

[wobman]

The railway does deliver poor service on occasions, no doubt, which industry doesn’t? However, would you say the service is worse than air, bus, ferry services? Because I’m not sure it is.

Just travel on Ryanair to experience awful customer service, so if that's the case the people on here would close the entire airline industry.

 

[Carlisle]

Probably the most sensible post I have read so far on the Industrial Relations dispute….!

Yes I’d agree with that .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I'd broadly agree with that. Taken in the round (see a point I'll make in a moment).

I would tend to agree my interaction with staff on the ground tends to be neutral at worst but usually very positive. That's probably because most staff don't exactly go to work with the thought of "how can a ruin someone's day today?" in mind, quite probably the opposite in fact!

I think it's more that a significant minority of staff are just bone-idle. A booking office should be a source of knowledgeable, professional advice on ticketing, for example, but all too often it isn't. It's so bad in some places (I'm pointing at a yellow TOC in the North West here, but not just them) that they are actively negative in their effect and would be better replaced with TVMs.

I also think the attitude to failed ToD issues utterly stinks to high heaven. The railway's failure causes a passenger's tickets not to print, and you get a Gallic shrug.

The fact that I think I've had a route excess done correctly without having to argue about it maybe 10% of the time speaks volumes.

 

[HSTEd]

Just travel on Ryanair to experience awful customer service, so if that's the case the people on here would close the entire airline industry.

Ryanair at least has the advantage that it's cheap.

The modern railway can't really claim that any more.

 

[Bantamzen]

A particular issue is that the more complex the working agreements for each grade and indeed the number of different grades bolsters the unions negotiating position. In most industries demarcation and 'that's not part of my job' even when it's a beneficial change to make job easier do not arise. The unions should negotiate in a positive way to agree to remove archaic practices, embrace new technology and push for retraining to make new, better and more interesting jobs.
The management should offer retraining as a first option and seek union cooperation and agreementin determining what roles the railway needs in the 21st century.

Indeed, there's little doubt that DfT & TOC management have a lot to do to improve their approach to how work is done & getting agreement with the unions to take it forward.

What exactly have they achieved? Treating their workforce like dirt, to the point of illegality, just to give Daily Mail reading chavs the ability to fly to the Costas for a pittance, wrecking the environment in the process?

10/10 for that…

Do chavs really read the Daily Mail? If that's what you think then you might want to avoid large parts of rural England, because you'll be chased out of the villages with locals carrying pitchforks and torches....

But Ryanair's business model isn't just about shipping punters to the Costa, its only a small part of their business. They are Europe's biggest airline by some distance, offering point to point services on routes often shunned by other airlines at a discount. Like them, loath them or simply don't care, Ryanair have proved it is possible to make money on routes everyone thought were basket cases. So there are facets that the rail industry could learn from them, and indeed other airlines going forward to not only improve revenue streams but offer a product the punters would like.

Which would be fine if the railway were as cheap as Ryanair. But, as we all know, it generally isn't. Which is a problem when you're providing Ryanair levels of customer service.

Just travel on Ryanair to experience awful customer service, so if that's the case the people on here would close the entire airline industry.

I apologise for just skewing off topic for a moment, but their customer service is what you make of it. Read all the rules before booking, understand what you can & cannot take onboard or check-in, and understand that their craft are often on the apron for only half an hour or so & their service is OK. You're not going to get an Emirates level of service at £9.99+ for a basic seat!

But as I say, the rail industry could learn from the aviation industry in a number of areas. Customer (aka passengers / punters etc) expectations are shifting, and the industry as a whole will have to shift with it.

 

[TheBigD]

Just travel on Ryanair to experience awful customer service, so if that's the case the people on here would close the entire airline industry.

Yet they have become europe's biggest airline. They must be doing something right.

 

[eldomtom2]

So there are facets that the rail industry could learn from them, and indeed other airlines going forward to not only improve revenue streams but offer a product the punters would like.

I note you don't actually say what the rail industry could learn from Ryanair.

 

[Bantamzen]

I note you don't actually say what the rail industry could learn from Ryanair.

Well for a starter for 10 how they grow demand on routes where other airlines cannot, and maybe how Ryanair maximise revenues. I mean I would have thought that was obvious. But its not just Ryaniair, the industry could learn from right across the board from other budget airlines right up to the top carriers. For example in my experience for a package holiday /budget flight company, Jet2 offer a very good customer experience (save maybe the theme tune played when boarding, which can get on your nerves after a bit).

 

[Ken H]

Well for a starter for 10 how they grow demand on routes where other airlines cannot, and maybe how Ryanair maximise revenues. I mean I would have thought that was obvious. But its not just Ryaniair, the industry could learn from right across the board from other budget airlines right up to the top carriers. For example in my experience for a package holiday /budget flight company, Jet2 offer a very good customer experience (save maybe the theme tune played when boarding, which can get on your nerves after a bit).

Ryanair are experts at upselling. That is getting more money from the punter for extras. Want a seat with extra legroom. that will be £20. and so it goes on. The railway bung you on a train and dont think how they can make more money out of the punters they have.