Comment piece in Passenger Transport - "The railway risks becoming irrelevant"

[ainsworth74]

It’s an obsession of this forum that the railway delivers bad customer service.

I'm on a delayed TPE at the moment. The guard has been great regular announcements and has been through the train in person to check in with everyone and discuss onward travel for missed connections.

Then the PA chimed in to tell us that "you maybe able to claim delay repay if you've been delayed 30 minutes or more" which is just flatly incorrect.

On the same train. An example of good customer service and then an example of bad.

It isn't just awkward enthusiasts, nor is it a majority of staff, it's a just a low level of constantly missing the small things that slowly add up to what seems like a pervasive issue of poor customer service.

I'm not sure it's sensible to pretend that if only the enthusiasts stopped whinging everything would be fine and there's no problem with customer service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure it's sensible to pretend that if only the enthusiasts stopped whinging everything would be fine and there's no problem with customer service.

The railway indeed delivers poor customer service a lot of the time. Probably not most of the time, but a significant minority of it.

 

[Evolution]

You do have to wonder why so many people who “dislike” the railways, spend half their time on a railway forum, dreaming up reasons for its impending demise.

 

[ar10642]

Really? Can you provide a link to the stats please?

Regarding your other points, pure fantasy I’m afraid, pumping money into roads or “electrifying road freight” would cost way more than investment in rail.

As much as the pessimists on here (which would appear to be predominantly people who don’t work in rail and never have) would love the railways to be run down and mass closures, it ain’t about to happen anytime soon. Sorry to disappoint.

Let’s face it the majority of it stems from the strange obsession (envy?) with salaries from people outside the industry and it’s almost a huge desire for there to be massive closures/upheaval within the industry.

Passenger stats https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisatio...ml?initialWidth=648&childId=pym_5a6d0281ee262

Freight stats
"In 2017, 5% of all freight lifted in Great Britain was on rail (76.4 million tonnes). The proportion of freight lifted on the rail network was the same as it was in 2016. Freight lifted by road (HGV) was 89% and 6% was taken by water."

 

[Dryce]

Really? Can you provide a link to the stats please?

Not hard to find .... just Google it.

Regarding your other points, pure fantasy I’m afraid, pumping money into roads or “electrifying road freight” would cost way more than investment in rail.

I chose electrification of road freight specifically because it is being constructively proposed.

Again - Google above - rail moves a minority of freight (and presumably the electrified rail freight is only part of that so smaller still) - with the further caveat that some of htat freight (eg. large quantities of aggregates might well be very specifically suited to rail).

Moreover freight is cost sensitive - already regulated compared with private vehgicle traffic - and a substantial amount moves over our trunk road network.

So beware attributig it as 'pure fantasy' unless perhaps youbreally are afraid of it and want avoid facing the reality.

As much as the pessimists on here (which would appear to be predominantly people who don’t work in rail and never have) would love the railways to be run down and mass closures, it ain’t about to happen anytime soon. Sorry to disappoint.

Let’s face it the majority of it stems from the strange obsession (envy?) with salaries from people outside the industry and it’s almost a huge desire for there to be massive closures/upheaval within the industry.

Well working in an ecosystem means you maybe look at it from the inside only.

Some of us pay for it twice over and see it from a customer perspective or from other sectors we work in.

I would also add that in my lifetime I have witnessed the shift to road freight - and while a lot of the expansion of road freight is in plain sight I get the impression that many really don't see it or how it operates almost as a secondary rail network - but on the roads.

I'm not interested in 'massive closures/upheaval' - but in return and benefits vs other opportunities. Challeging the orthocracy is important - and if the questions asked and challenges issued it doesn't mean that rail is necessarily going to fail - it might be the opposite. I just don't like the received unchallengable wisdom that rail is so important.

 

[lachlan]

The railways are not a universal service in the same way that education and health are.

And we have a society that accepts commutes by powered transport as an unquestionable norm.

So we get caiught in the idea of sustainable transport - when maybe we should question whether people should be transported in the first place.

We have created a situation where large cities can pull in people from distant suburbs and/or put people in expensive housing. Arguably pumping money and subsidies into large established urban areas just creates artificial growth and puts more pressure on those areas in terms of pollution and the ampount of exposure.

What if the railway (or rather public transport policy) is in fact part of the problem rather than the solution?

I can't drive. So for me and other non drivers, yes the railways are a universal service. And if trains are running for us, if makes sense that we try to get as many others travelling by train as possible.

As for commuting, I use trains for many journeys none of which are commuting. Yes, people do need transporting for many different reasons.

If you really believed we should be travelling less, why did you suggest expanding the road network in a previous post?

 

[Evolution]

The railway indeed delivers poor customer service a lot of the time. Probably not most of the time, but a significant minority of it.

The railway does deliver poor service on occasions, no doubt, which industry doesn’t? However, would you say the service is worse than air, bus, ferry services? Because I’m not sure it is.

 

[Facing Back]

Really? Can you provide a link to the stats please?

Regarding your other points, pure fantasy I’m afraid, pumping money into roads or “electrifying road freight” would cost way more than investment in rail.

As much as the pessimists on here (which would appear to be predominantly people who don’t work in rail and never have) would love the railways to be run down and mass closures, it ain’t about to happen anytime soon. Sorry to disappoint.

Let’s face it the majority of it stems from the strange obsession (envy?) with salaries from people outside the industry and it’s almost a huge desire for there to be massive closures/upheaval within the industry.

Can you provide a link to the stats regarding pumping money into roads or electrifying road freight? Compared to how much investment in rail for what? It’s a fairly spurious argument.

I don’t know about the motivation for every poster but I don’t work in rail. I do not want to railway to be rundown, quite the opposite, I would love it to grow and to become the silver bullet of transport.

I do however want them to be run efficiently with an eye to cost effectiveness so the ticket cost and subsidy are money well spent or invested.

Why is it improper for members of the public to have an opinion on the costs of operating a public service and the treatment of public workers?

It seems from all that is being posted on these forums that the industry needs massive upheaval and improvements/modernisation of working practices. That isn’t the same as wanting massive closures, people not to get a reasonable pay-rise or mass compulsory redundancies.

Like it or not passengers and tax payers are stakeholders in the railways and are entitled to an opinion.

In my opinion….

 

[ainsworth74]

However, would you say the service is worse than air, bus, ferry services? Because I’m not sure it is.

I'm not sure that "we're no worse than other services well known for often being poor" is a strong defence of railway customer service. All of them should be doing better not just shrugging and going "well they're as bad as us".

 

[Carlisle]

The RMT owe no duty to passengers

Wasn’t it precisely those attitudes from numerous trade unions that made Mrs Thatcher’s reforms so popular?

 

[43066]

That's it, nowt to do with the unions, they're just innocent victims in all this and not part of the problem at all?

Not really an answer that addresses the points I’ve raised, is it!? From your postings I don’t think you really understand what trade unions are or where they’re coming from.

So we get caiught in the idea of sustainable transport - when maybe we should question whether people should be transported in the first place.

So now you appear to be questioning whether we should even have public transport. Okay let’s reverse the last two hundred years of societal development. We can all go back to living in villages and riding a horse or walking to wherever we need to go.

I'm on a delayed TPE at the moment. The guard has been great regular announcements and has been through the train in person to check in with everyone and discuss onward travel for missed connections.

Then the PA chimed in to tell us that "you maybe able to claim delay repay if you've been delayed 30 minutes or more" which is just flatly incorrect.

On the same train. An example of good customer service and then an example of bad.

It isn't just awkward enthusiasts, nor is it a majority of staff, it's a just a low level of constantly missing the small things that slowly add up to what seems like a pervasive issue of poor customer service.

I'm not sure it's sensible to pretend that if only the enthusiasts stopped whinging everything would be fine and there's no problem with customer service.

It’s changed to 15 minutes I think (I don’t keep track myself admittedly)? Fair cop, I agree that’s poor - but at least the reminder to use it is there - and it’s great to hear an example of a guard adding some real value there. Most tend to in my experience.

I can honestly say I’ve generally found the customer service provided by the railway to be either largely non existent (on the “true” DOO network I use to commute on) or pretty good.

I can’t help but think there’s an element of unrealistic expectations on here - people will simultaneously moan about fares, outdated working practices and then lament the demise of HSTs with Pullman dining, horse hair stuffed seats etc. Enthusiasts (and for the record I’m one myself) are an *incredibly* tough audience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2022 ==

Wasn’t it precisely those attitudes from numerous trade unions that made Mrs Thatcher’s reforms so popular?

It’s not an “attitude”, it’s just a fact.

In just the same way as passenger interest groups don’t concern themselves with the working conditions of the staff, how much they’re paid etc.

Why is that so difficult for people to grasp?

There was also a lot in Margaret Thatcher’s reforms which made a good deal of sense given excessive union power in the ‘70s and ‘80s. We now have some of the strictest union regulation in Europe so it’s hardly comparing like with like.

 

[Facing Back]

The railway indeed delivers poor customer service a lot of the time. Probably not most of the time, but a significant minority of it.

I don’t fully agree with that. There are many things I’d like - trains from Knutsford running every 5 minutes so I can just turn up and go rather than getting a taxi to Macc - but generally my experience of customer service isn’t that bad - putting strikes and Sunday issues to one side.

I spent a bit of time recently working in a place only sensibly served by low cost airlines. Whilst Avanti service is nothing like Virgin used to be its still miles ahead.

CS could of course be a lot better and examples of failure are legion - but with squillions of train trips per year there are going to me many. Maybe I’ve been lucky with the TOCS I travel on

 

[Dryce]

I can't drive. So for me and other non drivers, yes the railways are a universal service. And if trains are running for us, if makes sense that we try to get as many others travelling by train as possible.

As for commuting, I use trains for many journeys none of which are commuting. Yes, people do need transporting for many different reasons.

If you really believed we should be travelling less, why did you suggest expanding the road network in a previous post?

The railway is NOT a universal service. It is a service that provides a minority % of journeys and passenger mileage within the UK.

Moreover the empahsis on commuting in the number of journeys means that the effect is that a minority get veru disporoprtionate use of the ailway (though to be fair they may be the ones paying higher fares and benfitting less from the subsidy).

It works very well for some people.

But for those not in a situation to use it then they are potentially losing out because the resources that are directed to subsidising rail could be redirected to provide facilities that would benefit them.

And yes the travelling less applies to the road network users as well.

But improving the road network - if that gets a net benefit - doesn't have to be about capacity - but also efficiency or changing the way it is used (hence my emphasis on freight a few posts back).

 

[Evolution]

Not hard to find .... just Google it.

If it’s not hard to find then why not link to it? Or is it just a nice piece of fiction you thought you’d try add to pass it off as a ‘fact’?

I chose electrification of road freight specifically because it is being constructively proposed.

Again - Google above - rail moves a minority of freight (and presumably the electrified rail freight is only part of that so smaller still) - with the further caveat that some of htat freight (eg. large quantities of aggregates might well be very specifically suited to rail).

Moreover freight is cost sensitive - already regulated compared with private vehgicle traffic - and a substantial amount moves over our trunk road network.

So beware attributig it as 'pure fantasy' unless perhaps youbreally are afraid of it and want avoid facing the reality.

It has been trialed in Germany, not in the U.K.

It would be far more cost effective to invest in the current infrastructure (i.e rail freight) than reinvent the wheel. The purpose of the electrified road network is to reduce emissions from lorry’s currently on the roads, it isn’t about reducing rail freight so not sure what your point is really?

I know deep down you’re praying for the demise of rail, but it’s unlikely to happen, I’m afraid.

I drive passenger trains, why would I be “afraid” of what happens to road/rail freight? What a bizarre statement.

You do realise everything on Google isn’t fact right? It seems to be your canned answer for everything, again, can you link me to some of your wild claims please?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2022 ==

Not hard to find .... just Google it.



I chose electrification of road freight specifically because it is being constructively proposed.

Again - Google above - rail moves a minority of freight (and presumably the electrified rail freight is only part of that so smaller still) - with the further caveat that some of htat freight (eg. large quantities of aggregates might well be very specifically suited to rail).

Moreover freight is cost sensitive - already regulated compared with private vehgicle traffic - and a substantial amount moves over our trunk road network.

So beware attributig it as 'pure fantasy' unless perhaps youbreally are afraid of it and want avoid facing the reality.



Well working in an ecosystem means you maybe look at it from the inside only.

Some of us pay for it twice over and see it from a customer perspective or from other sectors we work in.

I would also add that in my lifetime I have witnessed the shift to road freight - and while a lot of the expansion of road freight is in plain sight I get the impression that many really don't see it or how it operates almost as a secondary rail network - but on the roads.

I'm not interested in 'massive closures/upheaval' - but in return and benefits vs other opportunities. Challeging the orthocracy is important - and if the questions asked and challenges issued it doesn't mean that rail is necessarily going to fail - it might be the opposite. I just don't like the received unchallengable wisdom that rail is so important.

 

[ar10642]

If it’s not hard to find then why not link to it? Or is it just a nice piece of fiction you thought you’d try add to pass it off as a ‘fact’?

I provided it for you. Both passenger and freight rail kms are single digit percentages. This is not a piece of fiction, it is a well established fact.

 

[Ken H]

You do have to wonder why so many people who “dislike” the railways, spend half their time on a railway forum, dreaming up reasons for its impending demise.

Maybe we like railways but are disappointed at the state of UKs railways today. Years of government making bad decisions, and maybe some railway own goals too.
The railway is now in a poor place its major cash cow (commuting ) has declined. And it needs to shape itself for whatever normal is now. But i dont think everything has settled yet so that is difficult

 

[Watershed]

I'm not sure that "we're no worse than other services well known for often being poor" is a strong defence of railway customer service. All of them should be doing better not just shrugging and going "well they're as bad as us".

Indeed - Ryanair is hardly the bar to aim for!

Which is why it is so disappointing that rather than improving customer service, all passengers have received over the last 2 years is vicious timetable cuts, stock sent off-lease leading to overcrowding, unreliability due to insufficient traincrew, fare rises, and worsening terms and conditions. And now the prospect of a summer full of strikes.

And that is on top of all the other issues the railway had pre-Covid.

You have to wonder how much higher passenger numbers would be if even just a few of these issues were addressed.

 

[baz962]

That's it, nowt to do with the unions, they're just innocent victims in all this and not part of the problem at all?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2022 ==


There are many many excellent guards who do this, but sadly there are also many more who spend the entire trip in the cab doing nothing else.

And if you are right about that , you shouldn't tar all guards with the same brush and throw them under the bus. By all means pull up the ones that aren't pulling their weight , but seriously do away with a whole grade because of a few .

 

[43066]

I drive passenger trains, why would I be “afraid” of what happens to road/rail freight? What a bizarre statement.

Same here.

I’ve never been less concerned about my own job security than now. Post pandemic, I’m still regularly being begged to do overtime, still driving to Victorian semaphore signals on a regular basis.

The eccentric comments on here about the railway becoming irrelevant are completely alien to me and my colleagues based on what’s happening at the sharp end, in the real world. Even this government realise that the railway remains highly relevant, hence why it was kept running throughout the pandemic, including the brief few weeks where we were genuinely carting fresh air around. Now long forgotten given that passengers numbers are pretty much back to where they were…

Which is why it is so disappointing that rather than improving customer service, all passengers have received over the last 2 years is vicious timetable cuts, stock sent off-lease leading to overcrowding, unreliability due to insufficient traincrew, fare rises, and worsening terms and conditions. And now the prospect of a summer full of strikes.

All of which have been caused by the DfT. Let’s hope populist Boris pulls something out of the bag and forces a sensible deal to be negotiated….

 

[baz962]

Wasn’t it precisely those attitudes from numerous trade unions that made Mrs Thatcher’s reforms so popular?

I'm pretty sure she is one of the more hated ex prime ministers

 

[Evolution]

I'm not sure that "we're no worse than other services well known for often being poor" is a strong defence of railway customer service. All of them should be doing better not just shrugging and going "well they're as bad as us".

That’s very true, but you have to set realistic expectations as well, and in my own experiences rail has provided better customer service (whilst not perfect by any means) than other forms of transport. Is there room for improvement? Of course!

 

[Facing Back]

I'm pretty sure she is one of the more hated ex prime ministers

I’m pretty sure she was one of the most binary prime ministers. Nobody was indifferent, we either loved or hated the mad old bat. You could say she generated more hatred than most, but she generated more admiration than most too.

 

[43066]

I'm pretty sure she is one of the more hated ex prime ministers

I’m too young to remember her properly, but I quite admire her for some of what she did (no, I won’t go on record saying that in the messroom).

In any case I suspect 75%+ of ASLEF members vote Tory these days .

 

[reddragon]

Not really an answer that addresses the points I’ve raised, is it!? From your postings I don’t think you really understand what trade unions are or where they’re coming from.

I spent 25 years as a Union rep, supporting members through multiple disputes with breaks, coming back one last time when bad management returned.

What I learnt is that 50% of the problem is management and 50% is the staff and that sensible balanced negotiations are essential. You have to understand the position management were in and work with them for the best possible outcome. Learn what the staff really wanted and what mattered to them, then create a route of balance that had the best outcome for both members and the business, but not what the management always wanted.

My last stint was with some appalling management and it was a battle both sides lost. You cannot win them all.

 

[Ken H]

I'm pretty sure she is one of the more hated ex prime ministers

One that kept winning elections...

 

[lachlan]

The railway is NOT a universal service. It is a service that provides a minority % of journeys and passenger mileage within the UK.

Moreover the empahsis on commuting in the number of journeys means that the effect is that a minority get veru disporoprtionate use of the ailway (though to be fair they may be the ones paying higher fares and benfitting less from the subsidy).

It works very well for some people.

But for those not in a situation to use it then they are potentially losing out because the resources that are directed to subsidising rail could be redirected to provide facilities that would benefit them.

And yes the travelling less applies to the road network users as well.

But improving the road network - if that gets a net benefit - doesn't have to be about capacity - but also efficiency or changing the way it is used (hence my emphasis on freight a few posts back).

What a load of nonsense. The road network is subsidised too. Perhaps we should stop building new roads and put that money into the railway. after all, I don't drive so roads are of no use to me...

 

[eldomtom2]

The RMT owe no duty to passengers and the interests of its members aren’t necessarily aligned with those of passengers.

Well, that is technically true, but I think if you're going to live by that principle you lose the right to claim moral offense when a company does something against the interest of its workers.

 

[reddragon]

And if you are right about that , you shouldn't tar all guards with the same brush and throw them under the bus. By all means pull up the ones that aren't pulling their weight , but seriously do away with a whole grade because of a few .

It's more about a grade that needs to change a lot, but not everywhere. Guards on longer distance, and some rural lines with dark stations are essential.

But on a few London commuter lines when the rest have been DOO for years? No!

 

[baz962]

I’m too young to remember her properly, but I quite admire her (no, I won’t go on record saying that in the messroom).

I suspect 75%+ of ASLEF members vote Tory these days .

I don't particularly hate her , but did you see the scenes when she died . They were dancing in the street up north and her new statue has been attacked.

 

[matacaster]

Quite honestly these various threads show just why the railways really could risk becoming irrelevant, from both sides of the dispute.

From the management / TOC / DfT side they need not only to come with much better operational models and deliver an infrastructure that works for the passenger, both now and in the future, but also learn to treat their staff as assets that with the right level of cooperation can deliver a more efficient & reliable network. And that means investing in good wages, job security & listening to what staff on the ground are saying. However they will also need to deliver maximum efficiencies whilst The Treasury holds the purse strings.

And the unions need to be better able to deal with a new way of cooperating, and this includes accepting that how the railways are delivered going forward will need to change. This does not necessarily mean de-skilling or reducing wages, but looking how some existing roles might evolve in the future. Lots of parts of both public and private industries are doing this all the time to try and find an equilibrium between efficient working & staff engagement. Of course the unions will also have to accept the reality of being publicly funded, the kind of pay rises previously seen may not be forthcoming, even with inflation at the rate it is. Changing that is the job of the opposition & ultimately the voters. Which is why instead of just aiming purely at the government and TOCs, unions should be proactive in looking at ways to help the TOCs make those efficiencies & demonstrate how the railways can be of value in the future (this also goes for the TOCs), and working with the opposition into getting these thoughts in the House & discussed. A cohesive and forward thinking opposition is probably the only thing that can derail the government's wayward, and reactionary spending, which in turn is driving inflation, which in turn is making it increasingly unlikely that any of us will see rises anywhere near inflation levels.

I know this all sounds political, and and all the workers want is inflation matching rises along with T&C improvements, but being publicly funded puts rail workers at the heart of UK politics, just as it does all public sector workers.

A particular issue is that the more complex the working agreements for each grade and indeed the number of different grades bolsters the unions negotiating position. In most industries demarcation and 'that's not part of my job' even when it's a beneficial change to make job easier do not arise. The unions should negotiate in a positive way to agree to remove archaic practices, embrace new technology and push for retraining to make new, better and more interesting jobs.
The management should offer retraining as a first option and seek union cooperation and agreementin determining what roles the railway needs in the 21st century.