Comment piece in Passenger Transport - "The railway risks becoming irrelevant"

[GoneSouth]

Not at all. Non fare paying non customers that don't require the railway and have found it irrelevant, don't need to concern themselves. Those that find it relevant and need to use it can of course comment . Of course the poster in particular that now doesn't need the railway can comment , but why use their energy needlessly to get worked up about the strikers that have now saved them money.

Yes, also saved me money on tickets that I can no longer use on the other 2 days.

However, the events that I will now not be able to attend or have my tickets refunded are going to cost me considerably more than the rail tickets. So altogether the strikes WILL cost me quite a lot of money and I consider that reason enough to have an opinion.

 

[baz962]

Yes, also saved me money on tickets that I can no longer use on the other 2 days.

However, the events that I will now not be able to attend or have my tickets refunded are going to cost me considerably more than the rail tickets. So altogether the strikes WILL cost me quite a lot of money and I consider that reason enough to have an opinion.

Well that wasn't what you actually said before. So we are relevant then.

 

[The Planner]

Coaches are a very poor substitute for trains, but they are the best form of transport to connect wherever the railway is not available. For example Bournemouth to Heathrow Airport. If I have to travel but trains are not available, or degraded due to engineering work (e.g. if the direct line is closed with Weymouth - Waterloo trains diverted via Guildford), the coach will be my choice.


I have just moved from Bournemouth to London. It's far superior here in London as there are much more facilities and entertainment.

There are a lot of things I couldn't do in Bournemouth, but possible in London (even with full time job):

1. I couldn't do any shopping at all after work in Bournemouth, and there were no useful shops even in the town centre, to the extent that I even had trouble buying a suitable rubbish bin for my home, or a backpack for my next trip. All shops were closed by about 18:00 that I could only visit them on a Saturday except supermarkets. In contrast, under my new home in London, there is a street of small shops offering everything which open till late and even on Sunday, and most big shopping centres open until 20 or 21.

2. I couldn't have any good dining in Bournemouth. There weren't any good restaurants and not even a good buffet in the city centre. In contrast, I can easily find the world's cuisine over London.

3. I couldn't go to a lot of races because the railway service is so bad on a Sunday morning. In contrast, if I attempted to reach those races from London, it would be possible by taking the first trains or even earlier coaches. Furthermore, the airlines flying out from Southampton Airport is rubbish and Bournemouth Airport is a crap port which doesn't offer flights to useful metropolitan destinations, which prevented me taking weekend race trips on a standard Friday evening - Sunday evening / Monday early morning schedule. In contrast, from London, I can do such trips by flying out at Gatwick / Luton.

4. This is really a personal circumstance, but there isn't even an outdoor swimming pool in Bournemouth, while there are multiple of them in London. I can't get my training done in indoor pools because they are so hot. I believe that we can easily point out some various other facilities which are available in London but not in Bournemouth. Furthermore, I have asked about the best swim coach in the region and he operates in Canary Wharf.

5. All but one of my friends living in the UK are in London and its commuting area. As a result if I live in London I can visit my friends every week easily. When I lived in Bournemouth I couldn't see my friends for months.

6. The public transport in London is reliable unlike elsewhere in England. Outside of London bus routes can be added or removed without taking into consideration of cutting off communities. For example Wimborne has just lost its direct link to Merley on Sunday in the recent timetable change, and if I lived in Merley and relied on that link to Wimborne on Sunday to get to community events I would be doomed.

Finally, about job opportunities, most high-paid professional jobs are in London and, for a software developer, most jobs offers £50k-£60k+ with some better ones even in the range of £80k+ or even 6 digits. In contrast, those outside London are commonly only about £30k-£45k and some are as low as £28k even for a mid-level role. Furthermore, if I want to start a business and have an office, I will only choose Farringdon as it is the most convenient location for people around the country to come, being the centre of the railway network.

We get it, you didn't like Bournemouth! London is far from the be all and end all though.

 

[swt_passenger]

We get it, you didn't like Bournemouth! London is far from the be all and end all though.

People of Bournemouth breath a collective sigh of relief, having been worried about moves to turn the place into the Hong Kong of the south…

 

[reddragon]

The railways are in a very dangerous position at the moment, bloated costs and not want the customer wants too often. Covid has changed everything.

I go to my local GWR station to steep parking charges. The car park is empty on a Friday / Saturday / Sunday yet still they want silly prices to park, so I either park in the village car park which is free Sunday & bank holidays or drive. That's the very basic entry point failure.

GWR are quite good for buying tickets, but the prices can often be out of touch. On a Friday, the station is deserted yet they charge 'peak' fares, why? I thought peak meant packed not deserted trains! Come on. I bought tickets at Tweedbank last week. The machines only sold / offered peak ticket prices when you selected a destination. After faffing around for a while I found how to buy in advance as off peak tickets. Another entry point failure.

Then onto the trains. The seats are utterly awful on most UK trains, a slab of concrete would be no worse. Stupid excuses about fire safety is complete bullsh*t. On Saturday my son compared train seats in London and S-stock won! They run in tunnels!! The GWR 802 lost. My last trip to the West Country was out in luxury on a HST with a buffet car & back on a 802 in first class dining. The HST was much better. You can add wifi & USB points but if your arse hurts half an hour into the journey, you look for another option. I travel up to London on a 387, slower than the 800/802s but more comfortable. I guess others make similar choices and not always a train. I can also remember when most trains had a buffet car. OK times have moved on, but youtube videos of people ordering a Pizza to be delivered to their train at a specific station highlight the huge failings in on train catering. I bet it is possible to order hot food to be delivered to your train via the operator, we are all used to Uber eats etc, the railway needs to learn this too.

Then costs. In the 1950's the railway became a money pit leaching cash is if it was going out of fashion. This resulted in Beeching & years in the doldrums fading away.

Management then stuck to daft principals, ignored common sense and wasted huge sums of money. Today I deal with the railways every day and like my own business have become substantially wasteful, inefficient deliverers pouring millions down the drain on death by tick box exercises. Capital costs today are ridiculous. I used to deliver simple capital projects with a 10-25% overhead but today delivery costs are several times what they need to be due to pointless paperwork then overheads are now 125-300%. It's not only the railway that will go bust doing this but the whole damn country via a cost of living crisis. Sitting here seeing my projects cost 10x as much as they need to is painful. Management need to go back to true basics and slash costs, not in people as there are shortages but in pointlessness.

Then there are the staff & unions.

Beeching became so bad due to union intransigence, management incompetence & government complicity. Lines closed with staff outnumbering daily passengers because unions fought tooth & nail over stupid things instead of saving a few jobs there was a massive downsizing of the entire network. Even when trials in places like the Lake District turned the railways from loss making to profitable proving this, the ideas were blocked thus costing us many valuable routes.

Today unions should not be trying to save guards, they are mostly not needed or holding onto outdated working practices. Not driving a red c387 driver only but OK to drive a green or white one on the same route is stupid. Saving ticket office staff? Why? New generations want to use smart cards, mobile tickets or order & collect at a machine. At my local station I've seen the ticket staff come out & tell those waiting to buy a ticket at the machine that the ticket office is empty.

What should the unions be doing now? Coming up with ideas to save their railway, new ideas & working practices, cutting guards & ticket office staff and making sure they move to helping people on trains & platforms as London Underground have done. Take the bull by the horn instead. On Southern trains unions should have concentrated on the safety issues, getting better CCTV fitted to older trains to enable driver only, targeting the key issues and not daft outdated working practices.

As for these strikes? It is a suicide mission, with no public support and at a time they might as well all offer to resign & close the railway down. The railway is now at the greatest risk it has been since pre Beeching. The excellent staff working on the railways are the best solution to making it work, succeed & grow but striking over inevitable change is a very dangerous option that may grow pay packets a tiny bit, but at what cost?

 

[43066]

Yes, also saved me money on tickets that I can no longer use on the other 2 days.

However, the events that I will now not be able to attend or have my tickets refunded are going to cost me considerably more than the rail tickets. So altogether the strikes WILL cost me quite a lot of money and I consider that reason enough to have an opinion.

Interesting that you appear to place the blame entirely at the door or the union. Perhaps you should be annoyed with the DfT for preventing TOCs from having
sensible discussions with the unions which could resolve this and prevent the inevitable huge disruption.

The railways are in a very dangerous position at the moment, bloated costs and not want the customer wants too often. Covid has changed everything.

I go to my local GWR station to steep parking charges. The car park is empty on a Friday / Saturday / Sunday yet still they want silly prices to park, so I either park in the village car park which is free Sunday & bank holidays or drive. That's the very basic entry point failure.

GWR are quite good for buying tickets, but the prices can often be out of touch. On a Friday, the station is deserted yet they charge 'peak' fares, why? I thought peak meant packed not deserted trains! Come on. I bought tickets at Tweedbank last week. The machines only sold / offered peak ticket prices when you selected a destination. After faffing around for a while I found how to buy in advance as off peak tickets. Another entry point failure.

Then onto the trains. The seats are utterly awful on most UK trains, a slab of concrete would be no worse. Stupid excuses about fire safety is complete bullsh*t. On Saturday my son compared train seats in London and S-stock won! They run in tunnels!! The GWR 802 lost. My last trip to the West Country was out in luxury on a HST with a buffet car & back on a 802 in first class dining. The HST was much better. You can add wifi & USB points but if your arse hurts half an hour into the journey, you look for another option. I travel up to London on a 387, slower than the 800/802s but more comfortable. I guess others make similar choices and not always a train. I can also remember when most trains had a buffet car. OK times have moved on, but youtube videos of people ordering a Pizza to be delivered to their train at a specific station highlight the huge failings in on train catering. I bet it is possible to order hot food to be delivered to your train via the operator, we are all used to Uber eats etc, the railway needs to learn this too.

Then costs. In the 1950's the railway became a money pit leaching cash is if it was going out of fashion. This resulted in Beeching & years in the doldrums fading away.

Management then stuck to daft principals, ignored common sense and wasted huge sums of money. Today I deal with the railways every day and like my own business have become substantially wasteful, inefficient deliverers pouring millions down the drain on death by tick box exercises. Capital costs today are ridiculous. I used to deliver simple capital projects with a 10-25% overhead but today delivery costs are several times what they need to be due to pointless paperwork then overheads are now 125-300%. It's not only the railway that will go bust doing this but the whole damn country via a cost of living crisis. Sitting here seeing my projects cost 10x as much as they need to is painful. Management need to go back to true basics and slash costs, not in people as there are shortages but in pointlessness.

Then there are the staff & unions.

Beeching became so bad due to union intransigence, management incompetence & government complicity. Lines closed with staff outnumbering daily passengers because unions fought tooth & nail over stupid things instead of saving a few jobs there was a massive downsizing of the entire network. Even when trials in places like the Lake District turned the railways from loss making to profitable proving this, the ideas were blocked thus costing us many valuable routes.

Today unions should not be trying to save guards, they are mostly not needed or holding onto outdated working practices. Not driving a red c387 driver only but OK to drive a green or white one on the same route is stupid. Saving ticket office staff? Why? New generations want to use smart cards, mobile tickets or order & collect at a machine. At my local station I've seen the ticket staff come out & tell those waiting to buy a ticket at the machine that the ticket office is empty.

What should the unions be doing now? Coming up with ideas to save their railway, new ideas & working practices, cutting guards & ticket office staff and making sure they move to helping people on trains & platforms as London Underground have done. Take the bull by the horn instead. On Southern trains unions should have concentrated on the safety issues, getting better CCTV fitted to older trains to enable driver only, targeting the key issues and not daft outdated working practices.

As for these strikes? It is a suicide mission, with no public support and at a time they might as well all offer to resign & close the railway down. The railway is now at the greatest risk it has been since pre Beeching. The excellent staff working on the railways are the best solution to making it work, succeed & grow but striking over inevitable change is a very dangerous option that may grow pay packets a tiny bit, but at what cost?

Quite a rant.

So many non sequiturs and value judgements masquerading as fact here that it’s impossible to know where to start.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The railways are in a very dangerous position at the moment, bloated costs and not want the customer wants too often. Covid has changed everything.

------ pouring millions down the drain on death by tick box exercises.

I love it !!

What should the unions be doing now? Coming up with ideas to save their railway, new ideas & working practices, cutting guards & ticket office staff and making sure they move to helping people on trains & platforms as London Underground have done. Take the bull by the horn instead. On Southern trains unions should have concentrated on the safety issues, getting better CCTV fitted to older trains to enable driver only, targeting the key issues and not daft outdated working practices.

Absolutely spot on IMHO

 

[WiredUp]

And for completeness, do we know how much peak-time (non-season) tickets bring in?

Just over £50m/w for anytime tickets.

 

[Bantamzen]

Quite honestly these various threads show just why the railways really could risk becoming irrelevant, from both sides of the dispute.

From the management / TOC / DfT side they need not only to come with much better operational models and deliver an infrastructure that works for the passenger, both now and in the future, but also learn to treat their staff as assets that with the right level of cooperation can deliver a more efficient & reliable network. And that means investing in good wages, job security & listening to what staff on the ground are saying. However they will also need to deliver maximum efficiencies whilst The Treasury holds the purse strings.

And the unions need to be better able to deal with a new way of cooperating, and this includes accepting that how the railways are delivered going forward will need to change. This does not necessarily mean de-skilling or reducing wages, but looking how some existing roles might evolve in the future. Lots of parts of both public and private industries are doing this all the time to try and find an equilibrium between efficient working & staff engagement. Of course the unions will also have to accept the reality of being publicly funded, the kind of pay rises previously seen may not be forthcoming, even with inflation at the rate it is. Changing that is the job of the opposition & ultimately the voters. Which is why instead of just aiming purely at the government and TOCs, unions should be proactive in looking at ways to help the TOCs make those efficiencies & demonstrate how the railways can be of value in the future (this also goes for the TOCs), and working with the opposition into getting these thoughts in the House & discussed. A cohesive and forward thinking opposition is probably the only thing that can derail the government's wayward, and reactionary spending, which in turn is driving inflation, which in turn is making it increasingly unlikely that any of us will see rises anywhere near inflation levels.

I know this all sounds political, and and all the workers want is inflation matching rises along with T&C improvements, but being publicly funded puts rail workers at the heart of UK politics, just as it does all public sector workers.

 

[Moonshot]

There you go. No need to worry about the strikes then .

Certainly not from a passenger perspective. In my neck of the woods, a tram is a decent alternative for a good number of locals.

 

[Dryce]

Interesting that you appear to place the blame entirely at the door or the union. Perhaps you should be annoyed with the DfT for preventing TOCs from having
sensible discussions with the unions which could resolve this and prevent the inevitable huge disruption

'Sensible' in terms of these sorts of discussions is a matter of perspective and opinion.

The union is striking because it can. I doubt there is any tangible fear over loss of jobs as a result of any action they take that impacts on passengers and the assumption is taht those affected might harbour some ill will towards the union but actually demand that the employers or government do something to fix it.

So with the disruption threatened - in my view is that modern patterns of strikes are often very very cynically aimed at maximum hurt to passengers - then I think the those of the public who actually pay for the railway should ask whether they are getting value and whether they are getting respect as paying customers rather than just being held hostage.

When I buy a ticket feel I am paying twice - once for the fare and again for the subsidy (whether I use the railway or not).

If I treated my employers' customers the way the railway treats its customers then our customers would move elsewhere.

The railway has a privilege of public money and protection through lack of real competition in some areas.

Is it irrelevant - no. But that doesn't mean it's actually relevant to a lot of the public - including many who are paying for it by default but never (or rarely) step aboard.

The real test would be to reduce public subsidy. Let those show use it actually pay more for it. Then see how relevant it actually is - or maybe rather .... how much is demonstrated as being relevant after it is forced to make some effort to pay its way properly.

 

[LittleAH]

The real test would be to reduce public subsidy. Let those show use it actually pay more for it. Then see how relevant it actually is - or maybe rather .... how much is demonstrated as being relevant after it is forced to make some effort to pay its way properly.

Then you create massive socio-economic issues. Let's not forget that for every £1 spent on the railway, it adds more than £4 to the economy.

 

[Dryce]

Then you create massive socio-economic issues. Let's not forget that for every £1 spent on the railway, it adds more than £4 to the economy.

I'm not so sure.

If that was the case then the likes of Scotland would a lot richer surely?

In fact why not remove the need for passengers to pay at all and just throw more money at the railway magic money machine and just make more money ?

One of the risks with these sorts of numeric benefit assertions is that when you combine them with other calculations like GVA you can make a short link of road, or a tram, or railway appear to be of immense benefit regardless of the astronomical cost (and regardless of alternative things you could spend the money on or the alternative regions you could spend the money in).

 

[lachlan]

Cutting subsidies to the railway would mean the closure of much of the network. It would be a terrible idea from an accessibility and environmental perspective.

 

[baz962]

'Sensible' in terms of these sorts of discussions is a matter of perspective and opinion.

The union is striking because it can. I doubt there is any tangible fear over loss of jobs as a result of any action they take that impacts on passengers and the assumption is taht those affected might harbour some ill will towards the union but actually demand that the employers or government do something to fix it.

So with the disruption threatened - in my view is that modern patterns of strikes are often very very cynically aimed at maximum hurt to passengers - then I think the those of the public who actually pay for the railway should ask whether they are getting value and whether they are getting respect as paying customers rather than just being held hostage.

When I buy a ticket feel I am paying twice - once for the fare and again for the subsidy (whether I use the railway or not).

If I treated my employers' customers the way the railway treats its customers then our customers would move elsewhere.

The railway has a privilege of public money and protection through lack of real competition in some areas.

Is it irrelevant - no. But that doesn't mean it's actually relevant to a lot of the public - including many who are paying for it by default but never (or rarely) step aboard.

The real test would be to reduce public subsidy. Let those show use it actually pay more for it. Then see how relevant it actually is - or maybe rather .... how much is demonstrated as being relevant after it is forced to make some effort to pay its way properly.

I don't smoke or drink , but I pay the same or more to subsidise those that will need the NHS through their lifestyle choice. I would be happy to let people not use the railway and not subsidise me in return for me not having to subsidise others. Perhaps too we should charge a pence per mile for cars too , as I only generally go to the train station and back.

 

[Dryce]

Cutting subsidies to the railway would mean the closure of much of the network. It would be a terrible idea from an accessibility and environmental perspective.

Would it?

Rail represents a small % of passenger km and freight.

It's not about cutting subsidies to rail - but putting the money to work better. If rail is genuinely better then great -- but what if the money put into railk is of only selective benefit, over stated benefit, and could do better elsewhere?

One of the risks of rail subsidy is that the money and stated goodness are all based around an incumbent legacy network and are therefore selective even where there is a benefit. If that is the case then the risk is that the subsidy simply reinforces the dependecy on that legacy network and that other opportunities are neglected.

What if the subsidy was put into better traffic handling. So some instead of HS2 build some new trunk roads - or look at electrifying road freght and coaches on a national trunk road nework?

 

[baz962]

The railways are in a very dangerous position at the moment, bloated costs and not want the customer wants too often. Covid has changed everything.

I go to my local GWR station to steep parking charges. The car park is empty on a Friday / Saturday / Sunday yet still they want silly prices to park, so I either park in the village car park which is free Sunday & bank holidays or drive. That's the very basic entry point failure.

GWR are quite good for buying tickets, but the prices can often be out of touch. On a Friday, the station is deserted yet they charge 'peak' fares, why? I thought peak meant packed not deserted trains! Come on. I bought tickets at Tweedbank last week. The machines only sold / offered peak ticket prices when you selected a destination. After faffing around for a while I found how to buy in advance as off peak tickets. Another entry point failure.

Then onto the trains. The seats are utterly awful on most UK trains, a slab of concrete would be no worse. Stupid excuses about fire safety is complete bullsh*t. On Saturday my son compared train seats in London and S-stock won! They run in tunnels!! The GWR 802 lost. My last trip to the West Country was out in luxury on a HST with a buffet car & back on a 802 in first class dining. The HST was much better. You can add wifi & USB points but if your arse hurts half an hour into the journey, you look for another option. I travel up to London on a 387, slower than the 800/802s but more comfortable. I guess others make similar choices and not always a train. I can also remember when most trains had a buffet car. OK times have moved on, but youtube videos of people ordering a Pizza to be delivered to their train at a specific station highlight the huge failings in on train catering. I bet it is possible to order hot food to be delivered to your train via the operator, we are all used to Uber eats etc, the railway needs to learn this too.

Then costs. In the 1950's the railway became a money pit leaching cash is if it was going out of fashion. This resulted in Beeching & years in the doldrums fading away.

Management then stuck to daft principals, ignored common sense and wasted huge sums of money. Today I deal with the railways every day and like my own business have become substantially wasteful, inefficient deliverers pouring millions down the drain on death by tick box exercises. Capital costs today are ridiculous. I used to deliver simple capital projects with a 10-25% overhead but today delivery costs are several times what they need to be due to pointless paperwork then overheads are now 125-300%. It's not only the railway that will go bust doing this but the whole damn country via a cost of living crisis. Sitting here seeing my projects cost 10x as much as they need to is painful. Management need to go back to true basics and slash costs, not in people as there are shortages but in pointlessness.

Then there are the staff & unions.

Beeching became so bad due to union intransigence, management incompetence & government complicity. Lines closed with staff outnumbering daily passengers because unions fought tooth & nail over stupid things instead of saving a few jobs there was a massive downsizing of the entire network. Even when trials in places like the Lake District turned the railways from loss making to profitable proving this, the ideas were blocked thus costing us many valuable routes.

Today unions should not be trying to save guards, they are mostly not needed or holding onto outdated working practices. Not driving a red c387 driver only but OK to drive a green or white one on the same route is stupid. Saving ticket office staff? Why? New generations want to use smart cards, mobile tickets or order & collect at a machine. At my local station I've seen the ticket staff come out & tell those waiting to buy a ticket at the machine that the ticket office is empty.

What should the unions be doing now? Coming up with ideas to save their railway, new ideas & working practices, cutting guards & ticket office staff and making sure they move to helping people on trains & platforms as London Underground have done. Take the bull by the horn instead. On Southern trains unions should have concentrated on the safety issues, getting better CCTV fitted to older trains to enable driver only, targeting the key issues and not daft outdated working practices.

As for these strikes? It is a suicide mission, with no public support and at a time they might as well all offer to resign & close the railway down. The railway is now at the greatest risk it has been since pre Beeching. The excellent staff working on the railways are the best solution to making it work, succeed & grow but striking over inevitable change is a very dangerous option that may grow pay packets a tiny bit, but at what cost?

So you say that guards and ticket office staff are pointless now, yet moan about lack of buffet because you don't want to bring a sandwich. I would argue that if trains all went doo then good luck with a buffet.

 

[reddragon]

So you say that guards and ticket office staff are pointless now, yet moan about lack of buffet because you don't want to bring a sandwich. I would argue that if trains all went doo then good luck with a buffet.

A Guard would much better be deployer providing information, checking tickets, running a buffet than sitting in the rear cab. That role was once invaluable but today is often of little or no value.

 

[Evolution]

I have just moved from Bournemouth to London. It's far superior here in London as there are much more facilities and entertainment.

There are a lot of things I couldn't do in Bournemouth, but possible in London (even with full time job):

1. I couldn't do any shopping at all after work in Bournemouth, and there were no useful shops even in the town centre, to the extent that I even had trouble buying a suitable rubbish bin for my home, or a backpack for my next trip. All shops were closed by about 18:00 that I could only visit them on a Saturday except supermarkets. In contrast, under my new home in London, there is a street of small shops offering everything which open till late and even on Sunday, and most big shopping centres open until 20 or 21.

2. I couldn't have any good dining in Bournemouth. There weren't any good restaurants and not even a good buffet in the city centre. In contrast, I can easily find the world's cuisine over London.

3. I couldn't go to a lot of races because the railway service is so bad on a Sunday morning. In contrast, if I attempted to reach those races from London, it would be possible by taking the first trains or even earlier coaches. Furthermore, the airlines flying out from Southampton Airport is rubbish and Bournemouth Airport is a crap port which doesn't offer flights to useful metropolitan destinations, which prevented me taking weekend race trips on a standard Friday evening - Sunday evening / Monday early morning schedule. In contrast, from London, I can do such trips by flying out at Gatwick / Luton.

4. This is really a personal circumstance, but there isn't even an outdoor swimming pool in Bournemouth, while there are multiple of them in London. I can't get my training done in indoor pools because they are so hot. I believe that we can easily point out some various other facilities which are available in London but not in Bournemouth. Furthermore, I have asked about the best swim coach in the region and he operates in Canary Wharf.

5. All but one of my friends living in the UK are in London and its commuting area. As a result if I live in London I can visit my friends every week easily. When I lived in Bournemouth I couldn't see my friends for months.

6. The public transport in London is reliable unlike elsewhere in England. Outside of London bus routes can be added or removed without taking into consideration of cutting off communities. For example Wimborne has just lost its direct link to Merley on Sunday in the recent timetable change, and if I lived in Merley and relied on that link to Wimborne on Sunday to get to community events I would be doomed.

Finally, about job opportunities, most high-paid professional jobs are in London and, for a software developer, most jobs offers £50k-£60k+ with some better ones even in the range of £80k+ or
I have just moved from Bournemouth to London. It's far superior here in London as there are much more facilities and entertainment.

There are a lot of things I couldn't do in Bournemouth, but possible in London (even with full time job):

1. I couldn't do any shopping at all after work in Bournemouth, and there were no useful shops even in the town centre, to the extent that I even had trouble buying a suitable rubbish bin for my home, or a backpack for my next trip. All shops were closed by about 18:00 that I could only visit them on a Saturday except supermarkets. In contrast, under my new home in London, there is a street of small shops offering everything which open till late and even on Sunday, and most big shopping centres open until 20 or 21.

2. I couldn't have any good dining in Bournemouth. There weren't any good restaurants and not even a good buffet in the city centre. In contrast, I can easily find the world's cuisine over London.

3. I couldn't go to a lot of races because the railway service is so bad on a Sunday morning. In contrast, if I attempted to reach those races from London, it would be possible by taking the first trains or even earlier coaches. Furthermore, the airlines flying out from Southampton Airport is rubbish and Bournemouth Airport is a crap port which doesn't offer flights to useful metropolitan destinations, which prevented me taking weekend race trips on a standard Friday evening - Sunday evening / Monday early morning schedule. In contrast, from London, I can do such trips by flying out at Gatwick / Luton.

4. This is really a personal circumstance, but there isn't even an outdoor swimming pool in Bournemouth, while there are multiple of them in London. I can't get my training done in indoor pools because they are so hot. I believe that we can easily point out some various other facilities which are available in London but not in Bournemouth. Furthermore, I have asked about the best swim coach in the region and he operates in Canary Wharf.

5. All but one of my friends living in the UK are in London and its commuting area. As a result if I live in London I can visit my friends every week easily. When I lived in Bournemouth I couldn't see my friends for months.

6. The public transport in London is reliable unlike elsewhere in England. Outside of London bus routes can be added or removed without taking into consideration of cutting off communities. For example Wimborne has just lost its direct link to Merley on Sunday in the recent timetable change, and if I lived in Merley and relied on that link to Wimborne on Sunday to get to community events I would be doomed.

Finally, about job opportunities, most high-paid professional jobs are in London and, for a software developer, most jobs offers £50k-£60k+ with some better ones even in the range of £80k+ or even 6 digits. In contrast, those outside London are commonly only about £30k-£45k and some are as low as £28k even for a mid-level role. Furthermore, if I want to start a business and have an office, I will only choose Farringdon as it is the most convenient location for people around the country to come, being the centre of the railway network.

Everything you’ve described is quite typical of any costal town, you’re comparing apples and pears to a major city.

I’m close to a number of shopping centres open until 22.00 every night, great transport links etc, so it isn’t just a London thing, it sounds like you’re trying to justify it to yourself.

Come back in 10 years and let me know how you feel about living in a concrete jungle.

Regarding wages, yes you will earn more but you will pay massively more on general living costs, which in turn, offsets any uplift in salary.

Don’t get me wrong, London is nice to visit but to live there, not for me! I’m glad to be heading up the M1 or West/East coast mainline, away from the big smoke!

Horses for courses I guess.

 

[43066]

The union is striking because it can.

No, it’s striking because its members have voted for action. Those same members, many of whom are on modest salaries, will stand to lose a lot of money as a result. I doubt they’re doing it for the giggles…. Presumably they feel they have no choice.

So with the disruption threatened - in my view is that modern patterns of strikes are often mvery very cynically aimed at maximum hurt to passengers - then I think the those of the public who actually pay for the railway should ask whether they are getting value and whether they are getting respect as paying customers rather than just being held hostage.

If passengers are being held hostage by anyone it’s the DfT. The RMT owe no duty to passengers and the interests of its members aren’t necessarily aligned with those of passengers.

If I treated my employers' customers the way the railway treats its customers then our customers would move elsewhere.

It’s an obsession of this forum that the railway delivers bad customer service. Could it be that the forum includes many awkward so and sos amongst its membership who make a sport of moaning and complaining when the staff don’t bow and scrape as they present their ticket that’s been split five times to save a fiver? As a long time user of the railway prior to working for it, paying many thousands of pounds over the years, I never had an issue with the customer service offering. My observation of the customer facing staff at my TOC is that they bend over backwards to provide a good service, often in the face of considerable adversity.

The real test would be to reduce public subsidy. Let those show use it actually pay more for it. Then see how relevant it actually is - or maybe rather .... how much is demonstrated as being relevant after it is forced to make some effort to pay its way properly.

More Trumpian neo liberal dogma (I say that as someone who is centre right politically myself). The railway isn’t supposed to pay for itself.

I don’t personally use schools, should schools all be made private then? Maybe we should fully privatise the NHS, if you get cancer and you’re poor, tough. If you die in the gutter, it’s your own fault. While we’re at it, why not cut all benefits to zero? Work or starve…

 

[Evolution]

I do know someone commuting from Manchester to London every day for work, but honestly, it sounds like overkill.

I'm undeterred by Peterborough. It has all the typical city amenities, has very good areas and commutable to London. Then again, this city is my home one in Russia.

Yes, that commute would be brutal.

Sounds like you will be right at home in Peterborough then.

 

[lachlan]

Would it?

Rail represents a small % of passenger km and freight.

It's not about cutting subsidies to rail - but putting the money to work better. If rail is genuinely better then great -- but what if the money put into railk is of only selective benefit, over stated benefit, and could do better elsewhere?

One of the risks of rail subsidy is that the money and stated goodness are all based around an incumbent legacy network and are therefore selective even where there is a benefit. If that is the case then the risk is that the subsidy simply reinforces the dependecy on that legacy network and that other opportunities are neglected.

What if the subsidy was put into better traffic handling. So some instead of HS2 build some new trunk roads - or look at electrifying road freght and coaches on a national trunk road nework?

Where to start with this. We can't keep building roads if we want city centres to be tolerable. These electric coach services will get held up in traffic and will be slower and less comfortable than rail. The railways are vital for transporting people sustainably and so it's only sensible that we subsidise vital services, like we subsidise schools,the NHS, etc.

 

[g492p]

A Guard would much better be deployer providing information, checking tickets, running a buffet than sitting in the rear cab. That role was once invaluable but today is often of little or no value.

It will come as an awful shock to you, when you discover most guards also check tickets, make announcements, deploy ramps, pass information to passengers from control / signal box / driver ect

 

[baz962]

You forgot

It will come as an awful shock to you, when you discover most guards also check tickets, make announcements, deploy ramps, pass information to passengers from control / signal box / driver ect

You forgot a few things. Helping passengers with limited mobility and helping with ticket issues, directions and other things a driver can't realistically do . Oh and occasionally make the driver a tea ,

 

[43066]

Oh and occasionally make the driver a tea

Yes, don’t forget that .

 

[Envy123]

Yes, that commute would be brutal.

Sounds like you will be right at home in Peterborough then.

Exactly. Now if HS2 to Manchester was built earlier, maybe I'd have reconsidered.

Yeah, as a Russian, I'm used to rather brutal architecture in the city centre and certain parts being a "work in progress".

 

[reddragon]

No, it’s striking because its members have voted for action. Those same members, many of whom are on modest salaries, will stand to lose a lot of money as a result. I doubt they’re doing it for the giggles…. Presumably they feel they have no choice.



If passengers are being held hostage by anyone it’s the DfT. The RMT owe no duty to passengers and the interests of its members aren’t necessarily aligned with those of passengers.

That's it, nowt to do with the unions, they're just innocent victims in all this and not part of the problem at all?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2022 ==

It will come as an awful shock to you, when you discover most guards also check tickets, make announcements, deploy ramps, pass information to passengers from control / signal box / driver ect

There are many many excellent guards who do this, but sadly there are also many more who spend the entire trip in the cab doing nothing else.

 

[Dryce]

Where to start with this. We can't keep building roads if we want city centres to be tolerable. These electric coach services will get held up in traffic and will be slower and less comfortable than rail. The railways are vital for transporting people sustainably and so it's only sensible that we subsidise vital services, like we subsidise schools,the NHS, etc.

The railways are not a universal service in the same way that education and health are.

And we have a society that accepts commutes by powered transport as an unquestionable norm.

So we get caiught in the idea of sustainable transport - when maybe we should question whether people should be transported in the first place.

We have created a situation where large cities can pull in people from distant suburbs and/or put people in expensive housing. Arguably pumping money and subsidies into large established urban areas just creates artificial growth and puts more pressure on those areas in terms of pollution and the ampount of exposure.

What if the railway (or rather public transport policy) is in fact part of the problem rather than the solution?

 

[Evolution]

Rail represents a small % of passenger km and freight.

Really? Can you provide a link to the stats please?

Regarding your other points, pure fantasy I’m afraid, pumping money into roads or “electrifying road freight” would cost way more than investment in rail.

As much as the pessimists on here (which would appear to be predominantly people who don’t work in rail and never have) would love the railways to be run down and mass closures, it ain’t about to happen anytime soon. Sorry to disappoint.

Let’s face it the majority of it stems from the strange obsession (envy?) with salaries from people outside the industry and it’s almost a huge desire for there to be massive closures/upheaval within the industry.

 

[Ken H]

The railways are not a universal service in the same way that education and health are.

And we have a society that accepts commutes by powered transport as an unquestionable norm.

So we get caiught in the idea of sustainable transport - when maybe we should question whether people should be transported in the first place.

We have created a situation where large cities can pull in people from distant suburbs and/or put people in expensive housing. Arguably pumping money and subsidies into large established urban areas just creates artificial growth and puts more pressure on those areas in terms of pollution and the ampount of exposure.

What if the railway (or rather public transport policy) is in fact part of the problem rather than the solution?

The railways started it. They put on services for commuters, sold cheap tickets. The Metropolitan Railway wenr further, actually building houses so they had a captive market for their teains.