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Comment piece in Passenger Transport - "The railway risks becoming irrelevant"

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Bald Rick

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Advance tickets must surely pale into insignificance compared to season ticket and commuting revenue.

it may surprise you to say that this is not the case now.

leisure revenue is now well over double commuter revenue, and with something like half of leisure travellers on advanced tickets (typically for longer, higher fare journeys than ‘on the day’ tickets), it’s my educated guess that advance tickets bring in more revenue than all commuting.
 
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paul1609

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it may surprise you to say that this is not the case now.

leisure revenue is now well over double commuter revenue, and with something like half of leisure travellers on advanced tickets (typically for longer, higher fare journeys than ‘on the day’ tickets), it’s my educated guess that advance tickets bring in more revenue than all commuting.
Doesn't really surprise me. I don't often travel into Central London but in driving around Kent & Sussex it's noticeable especially where the station is more than an hour from London the 300 space car will still only have 50 cars in it midday on Wednesday. That's an awful lot of £5k plus £1k seasons gone.
 

Dr Day

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advance tickets bring in more revenue than all commuting.
What about people who commute on Advance tickets? Generally people can plan in advance when their office days are and, depending on the route, may be able to buy an Advance. Certainly much business travel takes place on Advance tickets so the old adage 'full fare' = business, 'reduced' = leisure and 'season' = commuting is long gone.

Genuine question - when statistics are presented on 'leisure travel bouncing back' is this actually 'travel on certain ticket types previously associated with leisure bouncing back'?
 

AlterEgo

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What about people who commute on Advance tickets? Generally people can plan in advance when their office days are and, depending on the route, may be able to buy an Advance. Certainly much business travel takes place on Advance tickets so the old adage 'full fare' = business, 'reduced' = leisure and 'season' = commuting is long gone.

Genuine question - when statistics are presented on 'leisure travel bouncing back' is this actually 'travel on certain ticket types previously associated with leisure bouncing back'?
Yes, I've wondered this too. With Advances now available even on the day in many cases and some employees able to get away with only one day a week (or a month!) in the office, planning those days becomes much easier.
 

Bletchleyite

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Doesn't really surprise me. I don't often travel into Central London but in driving around Kent & Sussex it's noticeable especially where the station is more than an hour from London the 300 space car will still only have 50 cars in it midday on Wednesday. That's an awful lot of £5k plus £1k seasons gone.

It is, but quite possibly not much of a revenue drop overall if they're buying a couple of Anytimes a week instead. It isn't guaranteed revenue but I'd imagine many are still going to the office occasionally.
 

Taunton

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Doesn't really surprise me. I don't often travel into Central London but in driving around Kent & Sussex it's noticeable especially where the station is more than an hour from London the 300 space car will still only have 50 cars in it midday on Wednesday. That's an awful lot of £5k plus £1k seasons gone.
It's not only station car parks. Our office one, previously full by 0845 and needing spaces preallocated for any visiting clients, is now at best 25% full, and the office does not even open one day a week. A few staff are regulars, others only occasionally. Staff at home is one thing, but the real dropoff is clients etc visiting, which is almost wholly done on line now. Incidentally, quite a number of the latter from upcountry used to come on the train. One of the issues is that, although I was always able to work mostly remotely, a reason for regularly still visiting the office was to interchange with others, randomly rather than prearranged. Now that's gone, because they are not there.

One major client still requires a that-day negative Covid test before entering their premises.
 
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Bald Rick

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Genuine question - when statistics are presented on 'leisure travel bouncing back' is this actually 'travel on certain ticket types previously associated with leisure bouncing back'?

that’s a good question.

As I understand it, it is a combination of ticket type and time of travel, partly informed by regular passenger surveys.

but it is probable that a ‘commuter’ who has changed his /her journey to work from a 5 day a week peak time season ticket holder to be 3 days a week after 0930 in the morning is probably now counted as a leisure traveller rather than a commuter.
 

WiredUp

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it may surprise you to say that this is not the case now.

leisure revenue is now well over double commuter revenue, and with something like half of leisure travellers on advanced tickets (typically for longer, higher fare journeys than ‘on the day’ tickets), it’s my educated guess that advance tickets bring in more revenue than all commuting.
It's difficult to break down the issued figures but Advance brings in about £40m/week (revenue), Off peak (which could include commuters) is about £65m/week. Season tickets are about £15m/week.
 

A0

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It's difficult to break down the issued figures but Advance brings in about £40m/week (revenue), Off peak (which could include commuters) is about £65m/week. Season tickets are about £15m/week.

Do you know how that compares to 2019 ? Because that's the relevant factor, how much revenue the rail industry is bringing in.
 

Ken H

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that’s a good question.

As I understand it, it is a combination of ticket type and time of travel, partly informed by regular passenger surveys.

but it is probable that a ‘commuter’ who has changed his /her journey to work from a 5 day a week peak time season ticket holder to be 3 days a week after 0930 in the morning is probably now counted as a leisure traveller rather than a commuter.
I think on office days some people will rise as if they were gong to set off for the train at 07:00. But they sit and do an hours work before setting off, so they can get a cheap ticket, and a less crowded train. Some may even do 30 minutes work on the train. So in the office at 10:00 having done 90 minutes work already. Come 15:30 they will start packing up to leave at 16:00. Half hours work on the train, then an hours work at home. 8 hours done. shedload of cash saved.
 

Nottingham59

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It's difficult to break down the issued figures but Advance brings in about £40m/week (revenue), Off peak (which could include commuters) is about £65m/week. Season tickets are about £15m/week.
And for completeness, do we know how much peak-time (non-season) tickets bring in?
 

GoneSouth

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Who in their right mind would be an advance ticket for this summer at the moment?
Me! Unfortunately for all three days of the strike just announced (although we all know it’s designed to cause 5 days of disruption because nothing will be working the morning after any of the strike days)

Oh bugger!

I have just worked out it’s actually cheaper to take the family in a taxi than one of the long distance train journeys anyway so looks like that’s my mode of transport from now on.

Now what were we saying about the railways being irrelevant?
 

baz962

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Indeed, though it's a good thing for all that many of us elsewhere in society have a different approach ...

The railway becoming irrelevant will be notably hastened by such a style. Today was I think the 6th morning, just in the first half of this year so far, 2022, that some of my staff have not been able to get in to work in the morning because of a strike on the Underground (March 1,2,3,4; June 6,7). Of course, nobody has been prevented from getting in by car. I'm sure it's a good giggle that after a 24 hour strike nothing can run in the following morning's peak either, thus causing disruption for two days

yum

Me! Unfortunately for all three days of the strike just announced (although we all know it’s designed to cause 5 days of disruption because nothing will be working the morning after any of the strike days)

Oh bugger!

I have just worked out it’s actually cheaper to take the family in a taxi than one of the long distance train journeys anyway so looks like that’s my mode of transport from now on.

Now what were we saying about the railways being irrelevant?
See you didn't need the railway , so now you don't need to worry or post about the strikes. Simples.
 

ar10642

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See you didn't need the railway , so now you don't need to worry or post about the strikes. Simples.
Yes, (would be) fare paying customers should get back in their box and let the workers club just do its thing.
 

baz962

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Yes, (would be) fare paying customers should get back in their box and let the workers club just do its thing.
Not at all. Non fare paying non customers that don't require the railway and have found it irrelevant, don't need to concern themselves. Those that find it relevant and need to use it can of course comment . Of course the poster in particular that now doesn't need the railway can comment , but why use their energy needlessly to get worked up about the strikers that have now saved them money.
 

ar10642

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Not at all. Non fare paying non customers that don't require the railway and have found it irrelevant, don't need to concern themselves. Those that find it relevant and need to use it can of course comment . Of course the poster in particular that now doesn't need the railway can comment , but why use their energy needlessly to get worked up about the strikers that have now saved them money.
Because many of us would prefer to use it if possible. It's supposed to be there for everyone to use.
 

baz962

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Because many of us would prefer to use it if possible. It's supposed to be there for everyone to use.
Pretty sure they said they would prefer to take a taxi as it's cheaper from now on.
 

Moonshot

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yum

Me! Unfortunately for all three days of the strike just announced (although we all know it’s designed to cause 5 days of disruption because nothing will be working the morning after any of the strike days)

Oh bugger!

I have just worked out it’s actually cheaper to take the family in a taxi than one of the long distance train journeys anyway so looks like that’s my mode of transport from now on.

Now what were we saying about the railways being irrelevant?
There you go.....as predicted...... alternative way of getting from a to b. And with strikes now announced, tens of thousands of others will do same. Trains clearly not as relevant as some make out
 

baz962

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There you go.....as predicted...... alternative way of getting from a to b. And with strikes now announced, tens of thousands of others will do same. Trains clearly not as relevant as some make out
There you go. No need to worry about the strikes then .
 

91101

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There you go.....as predicted...... alternative way of getting from a to b. And with strikes now announced, tens of thousands of others will do same. Trains clearly not as relevant as some make out
I'm conscious that Mike has just locked the thread on the strike, but in terms of the relevance of the industry to the public, it does concern me the impact that any national strike will have. I dont want to be a doomsayer, but there will be companies out there looking at how they can 1) profit short term whilst the railways are closed and 2) how they can convert customers. I have no doubt that in the boardrooms of Megabus, National Express, Flixbus, Flybe, BA, Loganair etc they are looking at what capacity they can get out and sell on those days, and how they keep those customers from going back to rail.
 

Envy123

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While I do WFH 4 days a week, eventually I'll need to do 5 days a week commuting, so I still need to be in the London commuter belt. Even Huntingdon's gotten too expensive for me to buy, so I'm moving to Peterborough shortly.

Trains will certainly be relevant to me, still.
 

pint

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Other than a passing interest trains as a mode of personal transport - getting form A to B are irrelevant to me, too many bad experiences to make it worth consideruing

I could use the train to "park and ride" to a nearby city centre - but why? its much easier to drive to a bus park and ride , where while its slightly further its cheaper, the park and ride bus takes me to the city centre with a choice of stops and importantly i do not risk getting a penalty notice by law 14 ( or whatever they were) offence for £100 or so for parking slightly askew or some other oddball offence with the treat of court magistrates court if i don't pay some parking company that manages the fines and penalty's in railway car parks £100. - seriously £100 for vehicle tyre touching a white line when it was impossible not to due to another vehicle being close to its boundary, and another one for not pakring in a marked bay when there were no marked bays to park in

Trains are expensive, inflexible the ticketing is beyond confusing and you are not guaranteed a seat, right now i could drive a long distance this weekend, if i wanted to catch a train on a whim it would cost- plus there is the risk of fines on top of the extortionate parking fees in the car parks

There are no railway stations within walking distance, to get to one its a car journey - my workplace is 20 minutes driving time to use a train it would be bus ( approx 1 hour) , 15 minute walk to the station, 35 minutes or so on a train then another bus journey of about 30 minutes add in all the time waiting as non of it connects and its almost 3 hours
 

MCSHF007

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Will this be the last 'open; thread on which people can express their opinions of "IR issues"? Every other one is being closed down.

I have my own views but haven't posted. Always interesting to read others' opinions (from all perspectives and, let's face it opinions are like ar*eholes"- we've all got one) so it's a bit sad not to be able to read these.
 

43066

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Other than a passing interest trains as a mode of personal transport - getting form A to B are irrelevant to me, too many bad experiences to make it worth consideruing

I could use the train to "park and ride" to a nearby city centre - but why? its much easier to drive to a bus park and ride , where while its slightly further its cheaper, the park and ride bus takes me to the city centre with a choice of stops and importantly i do not risk getting a penalty notice by law 14 ( or whatever they were) offence for £100 or so for parking slightly askew or some other oddball offence with the treat of court magistrates court if i don't pay some parking company that manages the fines and penalty's in railway car parks £100. - seriously £100 for vehicle tyre touching a white line when it was impossible not to due to another vehicle being close to its boundary, and another one for not pakring in a marked bay when there were no marked bays to park in

Trains are expensive, inflexible the ticketing is beyond confusing and you are not guaranteed a seat, right now i could drive a long distance this weekend, if i wanted to catch a train on a whim it would cost- plus there is the risk of fines on top of the extortionate parking fees in the car parks

There are no railway stations within walking distance, to get to one its a car journey - my workplace is 20 minutes driving time to use a train it would be bus ( approx 1 hour) , 15 minute walk to the station, 35 minutes or so on a train then another bus journey of about 30 minutes add in all the time waiting as non of it connects and its almost 3 hours

Out of interest, why are you on a railway forum?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I have no doubt that in the boardrooms of Megabus, National Express, Flixbus, Flybe, BA, Loganair etc they are looking at what capacity they can get out and sell on those days, and how they keep those customers from going back to rail.

To be fair coaches are a very poor substitute for trains and serve a different far more cost conscious market. To the point where people considering long journeys would likely not travel at all if trains aren’t available, rather than use the coach.
 

Dave S 56F

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It's all good if workers on a morning rely on the trains to get to and from work within a range of 5+ miles and have to earn a wage for their families food bills and rent etc, what do the operators of these train companies care who,s lives there putting in danger of family's and students and civil servants can't get to rondevue in their office shops or warehouse to earn their keep. the ones with motor cars are "oh I'm alright jack" cos they don't need to rely on a bus or train to take them to work, But for those who can't drive or having to work or study cos it's their livelihoods this is shocking if this strike action becomes a regular thing worker's who don't drive cars will all soon be on universal credit out of a job, Unless they walk or cycle 10 plus miles to work. 40,000 rail workers on strike for 3 days somethings amiss then with our transport unions on the railways. Its like where I live in West Yorkshire arriva bus drivers are on strike for a undisclosed amount of time thus leaving thousands of disabled invalid and elderly people who rely on buses to shop go to work see family and friends to travel on foot get a taxi or get a mate or family member to chauffer them around all cos of the public transport strikes cos the rail workers bus drivers are not getting enough wage to live on.
 

Evolution

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While I do WFH 4 days a week, eventually I'll need to do 5 days a week commuting, so I still need to be in the London commuter belt. Even Huntingdon's gotten too expensive for me to buy, so I'm moving to Peterborough shortly.

Trains will certainly be relevant to me, still.
That’s the problem with London, expensive tiny houses, pollution and generally rubbish scenery compared to the North. I spent the best part of 10 years living in London and I’ve lived in the North for 12 years now, the lifestyle is far superior up here, bigger houses, safer, friendlier people and less chaotic and FAR better countryside on your doorstep. I wouldn’t live or commute in London if someone paid for all my expenses, utter garbage place these days.

With WFH there’s been a mass exodus to the nice parts of the North, just don’t tell many southerners about the best kept secret ;)

Peterborough however, hmm..

If I was a London based driver, probably living in a modest flat or semi at best, I’d get myself out of London to a well paid Northern based TOC and enjoy spacious living, unless of course, you like living in a matchbox and sniffing peoples sweaty armpits on a daily basis! :D
 

Carlisle

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With WFH there’s been a mass exodus to the nice parts of the North, just don’t tell many southerners about the best kept secret ;)
Have you forgotten that moving to the provinces to escape the London rat race has been popular for decades ? :D
 

miklcct

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To be fair coaches are a very poor substitute for trains and serve a different far more cost conscious market. To the point where people considering long journeys would likely not travel at all if trains aren’t available, rather than use the coach.

Coaches are a very poor substitute for trains, but they are the best form of transport to connect wherever the railway is not available. For example Bournemouth to Heathrow Airport. If I have to travel but trains are not available, or degraded due to engineering work (e.g. if the direct line is closed with Weymouth - Waterloo trains diverted via Guildford), the coach will be my choice.

That’s the problem with London, expensive tiny houses, pollution and generally rubbish scenery compared to the North. I spent the best part of 10 years living in London and I’ve lived in the North for 12 years now, the lifestyle is far superior up here, bigger houses, safer, friendlier people and less chaotic and FAR better countryside on your doorstep. I wouldn’t live or commute in London if someone paid for all my expenses, utter garbage place these days.

With WFH there’s been a mass exodus to the nice parts of the North, just don’t tell many southerners about the best kept secret ;)

Peterborough however, hmm..

If I was a London based driver, probably living in a modest flat or semi at best, I’d get myself out of London to a well paid Northern based TOC and enjoy spacious living, unless of course, you like living in a matchbox and sniffing peoples sweaty armpits on a daily basis! :D
I have just moved from Bournemouth to London. It's far superior here in London as there are much more facilities and entertainment.

There are a lot of things I couldn't do in Bournemouth, but possible in London (even with full time job):

1. I couldn't do any shopping at all after work in Bournemouth, and there were no useful shops even in the town centre, to the extent that I even had trouble buying a suitable rubbish bin for my home, or a backpack for my next trip. All shops were closed by about 18:00 that I could only visit them on a Saturday except supermarkets. In contrast, under my new home in London, there is a street of small shops offering everything which open till late and even on Sunday, and most big shopping centres open until 20 or 21.

2. I couldn't have any good dining in Bournemouth. There weren't any good restaurants and not even a good buffet in the city centre. In contrast, I can easily find the world's cuisine over London.

3. I couldn't go to a lot of races because the railway service is so bad on a Sunday morning. In contrast, if I attempted to reach those races from London, it would be possible by taking the first trains or even earlier coaches. Furthermore, the airlines flying out from Southampton Airport is rubbish and Bournemouth Airport is a crap port which doesn't offer flights to useful metropolitan destinations, which prevented me taking weekend race trips on a standard Friday evening - Sunday evening / Monday early morning schedule. In contrast, from London, I can do such trips by flying out at Gatwick / Luton.

4. This is really a personal circumstance, but there isn't even an outdoor swimming pool in Bournemouth, while there are multiple of them in London. I can't get my training done in indoor pools because they are so hot. I believe that we can easily point out some various other facilities which are available in London but not in Bournemouth. Furthermore, I have asked about the best swim coach in the region and he operates in Canary Wharf.

5. All but one of my friends living in the UK are in London and its commuting area. As a result if I live in London I can visit my friends every week easily. When I lived in Bournemouth I couldn't see my friends for months.

6. The public transport in London is reliable unlike elsewhere in England. Outside of London bus routes can be added or removed without taking into consideration of cutting off communities. For example Wimborne has just lost its direct link to Merley on Sunday in the recent timetable change, and if I lived in Merley and relied on that link to Wimborne on Sunday to get to community events I would be doomed.

Finally, about job opportunities, most high-paid professional jobs are in London and, for a software developer, most jobs offers £50k-£60k+ with some better ones even in the range of £80k+ or even 6 digits. In contrast, those outside London are commonly only about £30k-£45k and some are as low as £28k even for a mid-level role. Furthermore, if I want to start a business and have an office, I will only choose Farringdon as it is the most convenient location for people around the country to come, being the centre of the railway network.
 

Envy123

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With WFH there’s been a mass exodus to the nice parts of the North, just don’t tell many southerners about the best kept secret ;)

Peterborough however, hmm..
I do know someone commuting from Manchester to London every day for work, but honestly, it sounds like overkill.

I'm undeterred by Peterborough. It has all the typical city amenities, has very good areas and commutable to London. Then again, this city is my home one in Russia. ;)
 
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