Collision Iminent Emergency Brake

[strange6]

take a look at the necks of F1 drivers- they've all got huge muscles there, it's quite odd once you notice

I believe most of them have specially adapted gym helmets that they wear and can lift weights with them using their necks!!

 

[O L Leigh]

Anyway, by the time you suss out an iminent collision is going to happen, it would be too late to do anything about it, never mind attempt to run out the cab

You clearly have no idea.

It isn't necessarily the case that something you risk hitting only appears at the very last minute. How about a fallen tree on a bend? Train braking distances have already been adequately covered in this thread, so it shouldn't be much surprise to learn that often we do have time to react by applying the brake and evacuating the cab even if the train won't stop in time to avoid the collision.

O L Leigh

 

[strange6]

You clearly have no idea.

It isn't necessarily the case that something you risk hitting only appears at the very last minute. How about a fallen tree on a bend? Train braking distances have already been adequately covered in this thread, so it shouldn't be much surprise to learn that often we do have time to react by applying the brake and evacuating the cab even if the train won't stop in time to avoid the collision.

O L Leigh

Can't argue with a confident man, Mr Leigh! And yes, I have no idea as you put it. I'm a mere non-railway mortal! However, considering railway bends are not exactly that bendy and the line speeds through them are not exactly high, I very much doubt you would have to run out of the cab if ever you saw such an object.

 

[66526]

Unfortunately you will never know how you will react unless you are unlucky enough to experience it. It is something which I have thought about (probably quite a bit more than most) and although I say that I'd be making a swift exit from the cab, I may react completely differently. Unfortunately you only get one shot with this sort of thing and the incdient will be happening so quickly it could be too late.

 

[O L Leigh]

However, considering railway bends are not exactly that bendy and the line speeds through them are not exactly high, I very much doubt you would have to run out of the cab if ever you saw such an object.

Stop now. You're just digging yourself deeper.

Yes there are some bends that give a restricted view, but not all are like this.

O L Leigh

 

[strange6]

Stop now. You're just digging yourself deeper.

Yes there are some bends that give a restricted view, but not all are like this.

O L Leigh

Deeper into what? Can you quote a case of such an occurence that has led to a collision causing injury or death??

 

[Hydro]

The FGW HST that had a tree smash into its cab sideways last year (I think), the driver had to dive behind his seat to avoid being killed IIRC.

 

[66526]

Strange six, it is possible for a driver to live through a major collision. I know someone who escaped with cuts and bruises in a 140mph collision because he got out of his seat

 

[strange6]

The FGW HST that had a tree smash into its cab sideways last year (I think), the driver had to dive behind his seat to avoid being killed IIRC.

Sideways? It was falling as the train went past? Anyway, this is getting a bit silly so I'll cut my input to this thread

 

[Hydro]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/leebrompton/Misc/hst_tree.jpg


The tree ended up lodged sideways.

 

[HugePilchard]

Of course, let's not forget the Cumbria Virgin crash, where Richard Branson commended the driver for staying in the cab, and continuing to steer the train.

 

[strange6]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/leebrompton/Misc/hst_tree.jpg


The tree ended up lodged sideways.

Hell fire! He was very lucky there and his reactions must have been like lightening! Well spotted that man!
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Of course, let's not forget the Cumbria Virgin crash, where Richard Branson commended the driver for staying in the cab, and continuing to steer the train.

Yes, he was a very brave man but how can you steer a train when it's been derailed? You're in the lap of the gods surely?

 

[trainofhope]

You usually have 5 or 6 seconds before the brakes apply if you take your foot off the DSD. I don't know if there is much difference where the DSD is held via the hand not foot.

7 seconds

How quickly can a train decelerate with maximum braking, anyway?

Something I've always been morbidly curious about...

Impossible to answer, without all the facts. traction weight, conditions , rail head....the list goes on

I'm not adeqately informed to give you a precise answer, but an EC driver I'm well aquainted with has referred (in approximate terms) to 'about a mile'.
I daresay a 2-car local travelling at 40ish mph and a 10 vehicle long distance service on a downhill will require very different time-spans to come to a halt!

It raises the question, is there anything other than a bright red signal that is visible to a driver a mile ahead and which may be worthy of an emergency response?

Would you like just my list?

Flag man missing! P/way in the 4 foot.
Man walking his dog accross a foot crossing
Overheads hanging down
signal irregualrity
Frieght train wheel on melt down
Train on opp line with red,uns on
walkers taking a shot cut
emergency call from network rail

thats just a few I can think of, there have been a few more.

Not nice at the time but its part of the job and at the end of the day its how you deal with it.

cheers

 

[Nym]

Deeper into what? Can you quote a case of such an occurence that has led to a collision causing injury or death??

Just stop, if you're not an expert in the feild and you're trying to argue the toss with somone who is a driver. With no dowbt extensive route knowlage.

Personally, out of the routes I know there are plenty of occourances where there are 'blind bends' on the NR network, but I'm not a driver, I don't sign any routes, so I don't know.

It would be like somone on this forum turning round during an argument about BFE Failiures on the L98a1, it has happened, it's not documented, but I know full well how and why it happened, and how it could happen again, but really, don't argue route knowlage with a driver.

 

[strange6]

Just stop, if you're not an expert in the feild and you're trying to argue the toss with somone who is a driver. With no dowbt extensive route knowlage.

Personally, out of the routes I know there are plenty of occourances where there are 'blind bends' on the NR network, but I'm not a driver, I don't sign any routes, so I don't know.

It would be like somone on this forum turning round during an argument about BFE Failiures on the L98a1, it has happened, it's not documented, but I know full well how and why it happened, and how it could happen again, but really, don't argue route knowlage with a driver.

I'm not argueing about route knowledge? Where did you get that idea from? Look! If you come on to a forum, expert or not, then you're open to debate no matter what you do for a living. Just because somebody is a train driver on a rail forum doesn't give them a license to be immune from debate! So let's apply a little common sense here please!

 

[Nym]

Of course, let's not forget the Cumbria Virgin crash, where Richard Branson commended the driver for staying in the cab, and continuing to steer the train.

Lambrigg or Grayrigg Detailment, it didn't crash into anything else, it flew off the rails and down an embankment.
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However, considering railway bends are not exactly that bendy and the line speeds through them are not exactly high, I very much doubt you would have to run out of the cab if ever you saw such an object.

There, I'd say it goes for anything on arguing with professionals

I know I'd damn well run if I saw a slow burner eject next to me...

 

[strange6]

Lambrigg or Grayrigg Detailment, it didn't crash into anything else, it flew off the rails and down an embankment.
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There, I'd say it goes for anything on arguing with professionals

I know I'd damn well run if I saw a slow burner eject next to me...

Oh don't be so pompous! Professionals, like myself, are not immune to debate and questioning!

 

[O L Leigh]

Just because somebody is a train driver on a rail forum doesn't give them a license to be immune from debate! So let's apply a little common sense here please!

Debate about a matter of opinion, such as whether or not it is right for a driver to attempt a "bail out" in the event of an imminent collision; yes. However, debate about matters of fact, such as whether or not a driver will always have time to attempt a "bail out"; well, that's just daft. You've posed the question and had the answer, so there isn't really a lot of space left for debate.

Surely that's commonsense...?

O L Leigh

 

[strange6]

Debate about a matter of opinion, such as whether or not it is right for a driver to attempt a "bail out" in the event of an imminent collision; yes. However, debate about matters of fact, such as whether or not a driver will always have time to attempt a "bail out"; well, that's just daft. You've posed the question and had the answer, so there isn't really a lot of space left for debate.

Surely that's commonsense...?

O L Leigh

it sure is, Andy. but let me tell you this; train driving isn't exactly rocket science as some people on this forum would have you believe. yes, there is a lot to learn and it is a very skilfull job but I always get really p'd off when people start to pontificate that just because I don't work on the railways it means I can't debate a matter about them. Whenever I get a question from a student about a scientific or engineering matter, I don't start looking down my nose to them because I'm the expert and they're not. That's what really gets up my nose about some railway men!

 

[O L Leigh]

But the difference here is what happens after the question has been answered. If the student asks you a factual question about, say, the relative tensile strengths of different metals, and then they start debating the answer with you and making bold assertions that are not backed up by your greater knowledge and experience, what do you think then?

O L Leigh

 

[strange6]

But the difference here is what happens after the question has been answered. If the student asks you a factual question about, say, the relative tensile strengths of different metals, and then they start debating the answer with you and making bold assertions that are not backed up by your greater knowledge and experience, what do you think then?

O L Leigh

I simply say that science is a wonderful subject so go and find the answers out yourself because i don't know what you're talking about. But there is a world of difference between asking about Schrodingers wave equations and ruddy trees on the line!

 

[OxtedL]

I simply say that science is a wonderful subject so go and find the answers out yourself because i don't know what you're talking about.

Touche I think.

To bring this thread back on topic and prevent war breaking out I will make a solemn point about how traumatised a driver who has to vacate his cab in an emergency would be.

 

[Nym]

Or if somone started debating with me after I'd told them somthing very elementary, with all of the reasons behind it and they still question it; seems there is a fair bit of that going on in here. Examples that I am allowed to talk about are escaping me this evening but there are a fair few, especially safety critial ones where there is no grey area at all, and pepole continue arguing. When somone did that, I kicked them off the range and usually back home again.

Driving a train is isn't philasophical, it's also highly skilled to sit and do anything for 8 hours that requires total concentration where you can't take a break when you want to, you take a break when you can; there aren't many professions where that is the case. I could argue I've done somthing similar but it didn't require the same levels of concentration, so I can't comment on how hard it is to do.
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Touche I think.

To bring this thread back on topic and prevent war breaking out I will make a solemn point about how traumatised a driver who has to vacate his cab in an emergency would be.

Or indeed anyone leaving a post of responsibilty, or having a tree come towards them at 110mph... It's bad enough having the back end of a citoren coming towards you at 60mph when you have a steering wheel...

 

[strange6]

Touche I think.

To bring this thread back on topic and prevent war breaking out I will make a solemn point about how traumatised a driver who has to vacate his cab in an emergency would be.

War will not break out becuase i respect the people I talk to and what they do!

 

[O L Leigh]

But there is a world of difference between asking about Schrodingers wave equations and ruddy trees on the line!

And that's precisely my point. We're not talking about a hypothetical, all-bets-off thought experiment that is completely open to interpretation and debate, but a factual scenario that can be properly described and predicted.

If you sent your student away with the message "go and find out for yourself", what would you expect them to find out? If they've just been arguing that lead would make a better material for skyscraper construction that steel you would expect their experiments to back up what you'd told them, that they are talking out of their hats.

Well, I'm in the same situation. I could show you bends where, at linespeed, an obstruction would come into view giving sufficient time for a "bail out" but not sufficient space to avoid a collision, just the same as I could show you bend where this would not be possible. However, as I am unable to provide you with the opportunity to do this, would you at least accept my word on the matter, as a professional train driver?

O L Leigh

 

[OxtedL]

Driving a train isn't philosophical, it's also highly skilled to sit and do anything for 8 hours that requires total concentration where you can't take a break when you want to, you take a break when you can; there aren't many professions where that is the case.

Maybe classical musician. Well, excluding brass. [< Look, highbrow joke :roll:]

Or indeed anyone leaving a post of responsibility

Have to agree there, serious psychological/emotional things going on.

[Subtly draws attention to signature, excusing actions with protests of "changing the subject"]

 

[strange6]

Or if somone started debating with me after I'd told them somthing very elementary, with all of the reasons behind it and they still question it; seems there is a fair bit of that going on in here. Examples that I am allowed to talk about are escaping me this evening but there are a fair few, especially safety critial ones where there is no grey area at all, and pepole continue arguing. When somone did that, I kicked them off the range and usually back home again.

Driving a train is isn't philasophical, it's also highly skilled to sit and do anything for 8 hours that requires total concentration where you can't take a break when you want to, you take a break when you can; there aren't many professions where that is the case. I could argue I've done somthing similar but it didn't require the same levels of concentration, so I can't comment on how hard it is to do.
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Or indeed anyone leaving a post of responsibilty, or having a tree come towards them at 110mph... It's bad enough having the back end of a citoren coming towards you at 60mph when you have a steering wheel...

I think you miss my point, Nym! i hope you do well in your GCSE's!
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And that's precisely my point. We're not talking about a hypothetical, all-bets-off thought experiment that is completely open to interpretation and debate, but a factual scenario that can be properly described and predicted.

If you sent your student away with the message "go and find out for yourself", what would you expect them to find out? If they've just been arguing that lead would make a better material for skyscraper construction that steel you would expect their experiments to back up what you'd told them, that they are talking out of their hats.

Well, I'm in the same situation. I could show you bends where, at linespeed, an obstruction would come into view giving sufficient time for a "bail out" but not sufficient space to avoid a collision, just the same as I could show you bend where this would not be possible. However, as I am unable to provide you with the opportunity to do this, would you at least accept my word on the matter, as a professional train driver?

O L Leigh

Mr Leigh; I respect you and what you do. If you tell me something factually correct from your own experience then who am i to argue? I just hope you don't find yourself in such a situation in future! (And Shrodingers Wave equations have been proven, they're not a 'thought experiment' )at least for the hydrogen atom anyhow

 

[O L Leigh]

Then can we let the matter of whether or not a "bail out" is possible drop? Thanks.

O L Leigh

 

[strange6]

Then can we let the matter of whether or not a "bail out" is possible drop? Thanks.

O L Leigh

I've never said a bailout is impossible? Where have I said that? Nothing stopping you from jumping off the ruddy train is there? lol

 

[HugePilchard]

Well, I'm in the same situation. I could show you bends where, at linespeed, an obstruction would come into view giving sufficient time for a "bail out" but not sufficient space to avoid a collision,

Dragging this back to cars... how often, in car on a B-road (or Welsh A-road, same thing!) do you find yourself pressed towards the outside of a corner at 50-60mph? Fairly often, yes?

Now, how often have you had the same experience on a train? Let's assume we're talking about something a bit quicker than a local service - people have mentioned 185s before, they can get up to a fair lick between stations, can't they? Even been pressed against the wall?

Now, either the corners are being taken slower than they are in a car (doubt it; I'm sure drivers here can provide us with the numbers), or the corners have a much larger radius than the worst we'd see on the roads. If it's the latter, then that translates to a much better sightline.