• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 93 Tri-mode Loco

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
7,306
Judging from RTT the timing load is heaver going back to Seaforth from Mossend (1475 tonnes vs 1000 tonnes). I assume that makes the last few miles on the return to Seaforth easy (downhill iirc) but Shap and Beattock will be the test.
it was as good as the northbound train.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R32491/2026-02-11/detailed shows that it gained 4 minutes on the schedule Carstairs to Beattock summit and 7 Penrith to Shap summit.
(Why would the southbound train be heavier? Whisky going for export, or maybe a second portion added to this train?)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
810
it was as good as the northbound train.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R32491/2026-02-11/detailed shows that it gained 4 minutes on the schedule Carstairs to Beattock summit and 7 Penrith to Shap summit.
(Why would the southbound train be heavier? Whisky going for export, or maybe a second portion added to this train?)
Empty containers northbound. Bear in mind northbound movements would normally be for laden import containers, but if there are no ships there is no containers to move. Last weeks arrivals were all disrupted by weather delays so it's possible in these circumstances that they may have loaded empties especially if the shipping line(s) are short of empties in Scotland which is not unknown.
 

Geeves

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2009
Messages
2,616
Location
Rochdale
Certainly is an interesting working. As I understand it DB in Germany is selling its own locomotives and leasing them back so perhaps they are also looking at leasing here? A 93 would look good in red!
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,739
As I understand it DB in Germany is selling its own locomotives and leasing them back so perhaps they are also looking at leasing here?
They are also selling locos and not leasing them back!
 

cj_1985

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
845
Location
Lanarkshire
Certainly is an interesting working. As I understand it DB in Germany is selling its own locomotives and leasing them back so perhaps they are also looking at leasing here? A 93 would look good in red!

AIUI that's more to do with reducing the overall debt from DB... sell the locos, get a lumpsum of cash back to pay against outstanding debt
 

Harlequinuk

On Moderation
Joined
15 May 2025
Messages
330
Location
UK
It does look as if they left on battery, added the diesel (hence the speed up) and when under the wires, went to electric
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,620
Why would the southbound train be heavier? Whisky going for export, or maybe a second portion added to this train?)

Other than the number of boxes, many containers heading back to Felixstowe / Soton / Gateway are loaded with scrap, which is rather heavier than most of the consumer goods they come in with.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
4,480
Other than the number of boxes, many containers heading back to Felixstowe / Soton / Gateway are loaded with scrap, which is rather heavier than most of the consumer goods they come in with.
I didn't know scrap generally travelled in shipping containers...how do they get it in & out without making a big mess?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,620
I didn't know scrap generally travelled in shipping containers...how do they get it in & out without making a big mess?

I wouldn’t say it’s the normal route for scrap exports, but it’s a cheap way of doing it, filling a box that would otherwisebe hewding back to China emoty. Just chuck it in, and close the doors. It doesn’t need to be full. Lots of plastic goes the same way, albeit that’s lighter, obviously.
 

Geeves

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2009
Messages
2,616
Location
Rochdale
I didn't know scrap generally travelled in shipping containers...how do they get it in & out without making a big mess?

It only seems to be a recent thing where someone must've been stood there scratching their head. Now they have hoist type thing that stands the container on its end so that the mechanical grab just drops it neatly in from the top. Before it's lowered to the ground and man goes up the top and closes the doors so it doesn't all fall again when it goes back to horizontal
 

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
810
Other than the number of boxes, many containers heading back to Felixstowe / Soton / Gateway are loaded with scrap, which is rather heavier than most of the consumer goods they come in with.

There are different types of scrap so the payload will vary slightly, but by and large scrap containers tend to weigh about 25mt, or 12.5 mt per teu which is heavier than consumer goods. However, it's very unlikely that the southbound containers carried any scrap because Liverpool does not currently have a regular direct service to China or other areas which are known to recycle scrap materials.


I didn't know scrap generally travelled in shipping containers...how do they get it in & out without making a big mess?

It depends on the type of scrap. Waste paper and card is generally baled, plastic scrap may also be baled or it may be in big one tonne bags in granular form. Non ferrous metals will almost certainly be either in drums or palletised. Scrap tyres will be loose. There are very strict regulations for shipments of scrap and the shipping lines demand sight of the paperwork at the time of booking, in addition containers may be subject to random inspection at the port of loading to check compliance.

I wouldn’t say it’s the normal route for scrap exports, but it’s a cheap way of doing it, filling a box that would otherwisebe hewding back to China emoty. Just chuck it in, and close the doors. It doesn’t need to be full. Lots of plastic goes the same way, albeit that’s lighter, obviously.

Sadly it's not as simple as that, the movement of scrap or all types is highly controlled and as I mentioned earlier is subject to very strict regulation. It's also very competitive and I can assure readers that beneficial cargo owners (BC0) will switch volumes between carriers for US$25.00 difference in cost. Because of the competitive nature of the market BCOs like to ensure the occupancy of the container is fully utilised hence why most scrap is shipped in 40ft units with payloads of around 25t. How plastic scrap is shipped depends a little on it's source, but packaging scrap of the type used in supermarkets etc will likely be in highly compressed bales, whilst scrap plastic from the manufacture or windows and doors may be in granular form in bags which can mean payloads can reach 25t.


It only seems to be a recent thing where someone must've been stood there scratching their head. Now they have hoist type thing that stands the container on its end so that the mechanical grab just drops it neatly in from the top. Before it's lowered to the ground and man goes up the top and closes the doors so it doesn't all fall again when it goes back to horizontal

Most shipping lines no longer accept loose scrap in their containers because of the damage it causes to the container walls and wooden floor. It's an expensive operation reflooring a container and the freight revenue generally does not justify the cost or the repair and the lost revenue whilst the container is out of commission at destination. For these reasons these movements tend to be accomplished by one way shipper owned containers.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
8,236
There are different types of scrap so the payload will vary slightly, but by and large scrap containers tend to weigh about 25mt, or 12.5 mt per teu which is heavier than consumer goods. However, it's very unlikely that the southbound containers carried any scrap because Liverpool does not currently have a regular direct service to China or other areas which are known to recycle scrap materials.
Liverpool has two direct scrap loading terminals (EMR in Alexandra Dock and Norton in Canada Dock) which probably export around 1Mt per annum between them, ~10-15% of UK scrap steel exports (the majority to Turkey, Egypt and India) so as far as I understand it very little steel goes out from Liverpool by container most goes directly into the ship holds however the Aluminium content post fragmentation (hammer mill) and sorting does go into containers and out by road.
It will be very difficult for Port Talbot and potential Scunthorpe EAFs to get enough scrap volume unless some is diverted away from Liverpool exports.
EMR Liverpool also does lots of scrapping old containers for several container lines.
Most shipping lines no longer accept loose scrap in their containers because of the damage it causes to the container walls and wooden floor. It's an expensive operation reflooring a container and the freight revenue generally does not justify the cost or the repair and the lost revenue whilst the container is out of commission at destination. For these reasons these movements tend to be accomplished by one way shipper owned containers.
Agreed.
 

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
810
Liverpool has two direct scrap loading terminals (EMR in Alexandra Dock and Norton in Canada Dock) which probably export around 1Mt per annum between them, ~10-15% of UK scrap steel exports (the majority to Turkey, Egypt and India) so as far as I understand it very little steel goes out from Liverpool by container most goes directly into the ship holds however the Aluminium content post fragmentation (hammer mill) and sorting does go into containers and out by road.
It will be very difficult for Port Talbot and potential Scunthorpe EAFs to get enough scrap volume unless some is diverted away from Liverpool exports.
EMR Liverpool also does lots of scrapping old containers for several container lines.

Agreed.
Just to be clear, I'm well aware of the EMR and Norton facilities and whilst the latter has access to a rail connection the EMR site processes all it's output from scrap materials delivered by road. However neither site would likely take laden containers of scrap and reprocess it on site so it's very unlikely to answer the original point that the difference in the weight of the train was due to scrap materials in the containers.

As far as EMR scrapping old containers for several container lines, I would not disagree, but I suspect the majority of those containers sold off by the shipping companies in the UK go into the secondhand market were they can attain a higher price. That said there will always damaged containers beyond any sort of repair which will be disposed of for their scrap value, whilst entities like EMR may take limited numbers of short life certified containers for one way trips to smaller or niche markets that cannot support a bulk ship movement. The aluminium content like other none ferrous metals recycled from the fragmentation process will almost certainly be packed into drums or bags before export as the value per tonne of these commodities is considerably higher than the ferrous scrap with is the mainstay of the bulk ship movements.
 

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
810
Last edited:

47286Dan

Established Member
Joined
27 Dec 2018
Messages
2,030
Monday morning movement

93002 GROG WORKSP DY 260Q561C02 F CDON EMDC N

Dan
 

MikePJ

Member
Joined
10 Dec 2015
Messages
1,003
Modern Railways March issue has a story about the Class 93 trial with DB Cargo.

Mark Sargeant, head of Operations at DBC is described as "impressed" with the 93, but later on an unnamed DBC source is quoted as saying that there are no immediate plans to use 93s and there's a direct quote "for the time being, the Class 66 remains the backbone of our fleet".

The optimistic read of this is that DBC like the idea but are still negotiating the price and conditions for 93s - whereas the pessimistic read is that they're not interested but were happy to help ROG find other customers through an easy press story.
 

pokemonsuper9

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2022
Messages
4,587
Location
Greater Manchester
The optimistic read of this is that DBC like the idea but are still negotiating the price and conditions for 93s - whereas the pessimistic read is that they're not interested but were happy to help ROG find other customers through an easy press story.
Or maybe Stadler's sales team just got an email.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,403
Location
Northampton
Modern Railways March issue has a story about the Class 93 trial with DB Cargo.

Mark Sargeant, head of Operations at DBC is described as "impressed" with the 93, but later on an unnamed DBC source is quoted as saying that there are no immediate plans to use 93s and there's a direct quote "for the time being, the Class 66 remains the backbone of our fleet".

The optimistic read of this is that DBC like the idea but are still negotiating the price and conditions for 93s - whereas the pessimistic read is that they're not interested but were happy to help ROG find other customers through an easy press story.
Considering DB Cargo have a fleet of 150 or so Class 66s and there are a grand total of 10 Class 93s, I think it's somewhere close to your optimistic read, with the proviso that they need to understand the impact on their current resource plan (or how to generate the finance for a much bigger order).
 

HST125Scorton

Member
Joined
4 Jun 2019
Messages
151
Location
Atherton
93002 currently on 0Q72 08:54 Crewe South Yard to Wembley (due 12:38)

Heads back North later to DRS at Gresty Bridge. Not sure what ROG/DRS have in plan.

 

802020

Member
Joined
4 Sep 2021
Messages
84
Location
Somerset
Heads back North later to DRS at Gresty Bridge. Not sure what ROG/DRS have in plan.


0Q42 showing as cancelled on RTT
 

Peter Sarf

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
9,588
Location
Croydon
Also two fly pasts of Wembley yard reveals no sign of a 93. RTT stops getting reports at Wembley central. It was running 65 early mainly by skipping the Northampton loop. Wonder where its gone ?.
 

Peter Sarf

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
9,588
Location
Croydon
Apparently 93002 went to Euston instead. I worked out I could have got it at Euston as I dashed for the 12:09 to Harrow & W.

I returned to Euston at 12:27. Something flashed past as I got on.

93002 on a different 9Q42 from Euston

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Passing Bletchley on down fast at time of posting
Thanks.
 

Rail Quest

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2023
Messages
755
Location
Warrington

47286Dan

Established Member
Joined
27 Dec 2018
Messages
2,030
Wednesday morning movements

93003 GROG WORKSP DY 260Q451E04 F PETERBORO N
93009 GROG WORKSP DY 260Q451E04 F PETERBORO N

Dan
 

Top