Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[800001]

Wouldn't disagree with returning the 810s to Hitachi but.... EMR are happily trying to use six in service everyday. If they are that poor / unsafe / rubbish then they would not be coming off Etches Park every morning. Ansaldo Breda had a terrible reputation for train building and DfT should have run due process checks before signing on the dotted line. Hitachi Europe have got the DfT by the short and curlies!!! This is after the welding / aluminium grade of metal on the previous AT300 series.

since Hitachi took over the Italian factory, what units have they built/designed? How are they operating in comparison with the 810s?

It is several years (7-8+?) since Hitachi took over, you would think the past reputation could be forgotten about by now.

 

[irish_rail]

Just seen a RAIL article regarding the Dynamic Braking on the 810s, EMR have had to turn off the Dynamic Braking for the time being whilst they investigate issues with said brakes after multiple units started overshooting their stop markers.



(Quotes from this RAIL magazine)

This is unfortunately a "known" issue with the 80x family. This time of year, having a set with regen braking is always a pain, as at 10mph the brakes release and then reapply with the friction brake. In slippy conditions this often causes a slide, and at a very crucial time in the station stop, especially when accurate stopping is required. I myself have had close calls in past couple of years and talking to colleagues im not alone. I'm not quite sure why regen brakes can't be switched off fleet wide throughout Autumn.

 

[Wyrleybart]

since Hitachi took over the Italian factory, what units have they built/designed? How are they operating in comparison with the 810s?

It is several years (7-8+?) since Hitachi took over, you would think the past reputation could be forgotten about by now.

AIUI all AT300s were expected to need corrective welding and I notice 800102 has recently moved to Eastleigh. No idea how many have been done so far.
Some folk have long memories, particularly rail enthusiasts who particularly remember farces like the TPE CAF mk5s, the £30m wasted on retractioning the 442s and more recently the GWR regional services in Devon & Cornwall (insert whichever traction)

 

[Nym]

since Hitachi took over the Italian factory, what units have they built/designed? How are they operating in comparison with the 810s?

It is several years (7-8+?) since Hitachi took over, you would think the past reputation could be forgotten about by now.

Hitachi Rail Europe's design language (and the issues it creates, particularly when using that design language in places that aren't used to it) have been brought in from the factory in Italy.

 

[Railperf]

d as the dust settles, GBR still need to go and find a 125mph bimode with high performance on diesel. Nobody else has one proven so it'd take at least 5 years to get back to where we are now and no guarantee it'd be problem free. .

The only bi-mode that offers similar acceleration to a Class 222 is the 4-car Class 755/4 with the four engined power pack. But the UK version is a 100mph product. Though the acceleration in both electric and diesel modes suggests higher speeds are possible.

The FLIRT family do have 125mph EMU versions abroad. Realistically 110mph maximum speed would be okay on diesel if the acceleration can be maintained As the 755/4 is only 80m long vs 120m for a five-car Class 810, it is most likely some intermediate vehicles will be needed, additional power bogie and most likely an additional power pack.
Reliability of these units seems to be okay.

 

[class26]

what could be done is order an emergency batch of 807`s for the Midland mainline to be used as an interim until hitachi can sort out the 810`s. When, and if the 810`s are satisfactorily sorted the 807`s could then be transfered to Cross Country with a follow up order of 807`s to give XC enough trains for the job then the 220 / 221`s will be free for whatevber the GBR deems fit.

 

[800001]

807 are electric!
805 are Bimode, but as discussed at length the carriages are to long to allow 2 x 5 car sets to be platformed at St Pancras.

what could be done is order an emergency batch of 807`s for the Midland mainline to be used as an interim until hitachi can sort out the 810`s. When, and if the 810`s are satisfactorily sorted the 807`s could then be transfered to Cross Country with a follow up order of 807`s to give XC enough trains for the job then the 220 / 221`s will be free for whatevber the GBR deems fit.

 

[MCR247]

what could be done is order an emergency batch of 807`s for the Midland mainline to be used as an interim until hitachi can sort out the 810`s. When, and if the 810`s are satisfactorily sorted the 807`s could then be transfered to Cross Country with a follow up order of 807`s to give XC enough trains for the job then the 220 / 221`s will be free for whatevber the GBR deems fit.

I’d have thought by the time any new ‘stopgap’ fleet was built, the 810 issues will have either been fixed, or be enough of a persistent problem that a permanent solution is needed. And if the latter, then it’d be a waste of time and resources training crew on a fleet that won’t be sticking around

 

[Roylang]

Some folk have long memories, particularly rail enthusiasts who particularly remember farces like the TPE CAF mk5s, the £30m wasted on retractioning the 442s and more recently the GWR regional services in Devon & Cornwall (insert whichever traction)

Well that made me feel old, those are all fairly recent debarcles to me. I would suggest those of us with long memories would talk about Skippers being a failure in Cornwall, 458s with leaks, etc.

The point is, problems on entry into service is nothing new, but they are getting worse owing to increasing reliance on technology.

Roy

 

[Wyrleybart]

what could be done is order an emergency batch of 807`s for the Midland mainline to be used as an interim until hitachi can sort out the 810`s. When, and if the 810`s are satisfactorily sorted the 807`s could then be transfered to Cross Country with a follow up order of 807`s to give XC enough trains for the job then the 220 / 221`s will be free for whatevber the GBR deems fit.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but DfT should not have concocted their very expensive 2x5 car plan and just specified around 25 9 car "super 805s". 25 of these would have 50 cabs full of very expensive kit and couplers, whereas 33 5 car 810s have 66 cabs and couplers with all the attendance issues with coupling and uncoupling several times a day.

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Well that made me feel old, those are all fairly recent debarcles to me. I would suggest those of us with long memories would talk about Skippers being a failure in Cornwall, 458s with leaks, etc.

The point is, problems on entry into service is nothing new, but they are getting worse owing to increasing reliance on technology.

Roy

IIRC the 458s were alleged to be a huge problem with coupling them together by depot staff at one point ?

The "Skippers" - actually the whole class 142 fleet which had to have redesigned doors, brakes and transmissions !!

Yup. Loads of memories

 

[superkev]

Richard Bowker of the excelent green signals Youtube channel put much of the blame on the gov for pausing/cancelling the wires north of Wigton. This created the need for a unique 222 performance bi mode rather than a simpler emu.. what do forum members think? Would a straight 8xx emu be much better.
K

 

[DaveyJones]

Richard Bowker of the excelent green signals Youtube channel put much of the blame on the gov for pausing/cancelling the wires north of Wigton. This created the need for a unique 222 performance bi mode rather than a simpler emu.. what do forum members think? Would a straight 8xx emu be much better.
K

When comparing the 807 and 805 performance at Avanti, i'd say a pretty serious case exists for Electric Only Units... but only if the infrastructure exists to support it

 

[Roger B]

When comparing the 807 and 805 performance at Avanti, i'd say a pretty serious case exists for Electric Only Units... but only if the infrastructure exists to support it

Ermm .. the 805s have diesel engines as well!

Pretty essential really along the north Wales coast.

 

[DaveyJones]

Ermm .. the 805s have diesel engines as well!

Pretty essential really along the north Wales coast.

Thats what i meant - the 807 sailed from Service introduction to business as Usual, the 805 Introduction was torrid for the customers on the NW Coast...

 

[NCT]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but DfT should not have concocted their very expensive 2x5 car plan and just specified around 25 9 car "super 805s". 25 of these would have 50 cabs full of very expensive kit and couplers, whereas 33 5 car 810s have 66 cabs and couplers with all the attendance issues with coupling and uncoupling several times a day.

This has been covered multiple times in this thread and others.

Remember the EMR fleet decision was made in an environment of competitive tender where DfT's main interest was maximising premium payments. A bidder that proposed running full-length trains all-day would have lost the bid. EMR is the shortest of all intercity routes, serving only medium-sized cities with no particular tourism merits, and just doesn't have the all-day off-peak demand like its East Coast or West Coast neighbours.

It's also easy to forget that EMR demand and capacity forecasts were made in an era when HS2 was expected to whisk away the majority of East Midlands demand by 2033. The Leicester demand remaining with EMR would never have justified running full-length trains all day.

 

[Snow1964]

Richard Bowker of the excelent green signals Youtube channel put much of the blame on the gov for pausing/cancelling the wires north of Wigton. This created the need for a unique 222 performance bi mode rather than a simpler emu.. what do forum members think? Would a straight 8xx emu be much better.
K

He is right in sense of making a non standard batch of trains, shortening the vehicles and trying to pack extra power into the reduced space was always a very high risk strategy.

Of course the alternative of taking wires further north, or cost of altering infrastructure to allow 15-25m platform extensions vs the cost of redesign (70% of the train) and retooling to build it and risk of this bodged design not actually working, or being years late, and requiring expensive lease extensions of 222s

805 are Bimode, but as discussed at length the carriages are to long to allow 2 x 5 car sets to be platformed at St Pancras.

With hindsight appears to be daft choice, especially as Waterloo suburban 10 car scheme had produced knowledge on how to move junctions, signals and lengthen platforms.

Roger Ford's long-ish read on the Cl810 in August does state that EMR probably still has the nuclear option of rejecting the entire fleet. Retaining that option may be part of the reason why EMR are not accepting new Cl810 until the existing ones have improved.

EMR have ended up being backed into a corner, they are continuing with what appears to be a failed design, because they have let the troubled fleet run beyond any contingency plan (without knowing if and when 810s will work, they have relinquished ongoing use of existing fleet), whereas they should have had a backstop date where an alternative was put into place (a replacement order, with extension of 222s until ready, or alternative solution). I am guessing there are dates in agreements (even if not public) where a nuclear handback option is still possible.

Maybe the 810s would have better future rebuilt as EMUs with bit of battery capacity the a diesel bimode

 

[Carlisle]

Richard Bowker of the excelent green signals Youtube channel put much of the blame on the gov for pausing/cancelling the wires north of Wigton.

Great to hear the Cumbrian Coast line is finally getting some serious investment.

 

[NCT]

In terms of train length, at the time of Abellio going to the market, 26m cars were not the accepted/established standard. In fact that was the height of backlash against the IET - poor passenger comfort and poor value for money. As far as I recall, there was no prior expectation the order would go to Hitachi - I even remember there being a period where the working assumption was an inter-city Aventra.