Should EMR cancel the Class 810 order and/or return the trains?

[QSK19]

That will never happen! Not really possible for a start and then what would you do, design a new train and wait 10+ years for them to enter service, all with your current trains already destined for another operator with many already gone? And all the money already invested?
The issues aren't that bad, yes there are some teething issues but the severity of issues are reducing, and reliability is starting to improve.

I agree with you fully apart from saying that the issues aren’t that bad. The issues are terrible and absolutely unforgivable considering there has been all the time in the world to get these into service and bedded in fully - notwithstanding Covid, construction on them started 5 years ago.

I think that Hitachi was short-sighted when initially looking at the 810 programme, like it was simply a case of souping up an 802 and making them a little shorter. The sheer amount of liquidated damages is representative of this IMO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2026 ==

No. But if we were doing something like that, it needs to be scoped to look GB wide to look at all the other problematic rolling stock projects that probably constitute about a third of all the messages that have ever been posted here!


It's something they should be paying attention to, given there are a lot of significant DMU replacement orders, plus HS2 rolling stock contracts at various phases of procurement, which the taxpayer will be on the hook for, for decades. Not sure on the scope of the National Audit Office, but as GBR is increasingly responsible for rolling stock procurement, perhaps they will take a look.

Although to be fair, we already know most of the answers
1. DfT policies of "anything but electrification" and "maximise seats at all costs" leading to more exotic technical solutions bringing more risk; especially considering restrictive GB loading gauges compared to RotW (and worse trains from a passenger perspective).
2. Boutique customisation to very specific operator requirements losing economies of scale and increasing development costs, often leading to inflexible non-standard fleets that make redeployment slow and costly
3. Manufacturers overwhelmed by complexity; particularly software and systems integration

Can't think of a single rolling stock project that is not a victim of at least one of these factors. Class 810 is probably all 3.

Part of me wishes that none of the manufacturers had expressed interest in the tender. Would have focussed minds on something more achievable and things could have played out completely differently.

 

[Teapot42]

Would it be fair to say that a significant number of problems appear to be to do with running on diesel at 125mph? I know there are door lock issues, but they should be fairly easy to resolve. If things are too tightly packaged to operate reliably at full load in high ambient temperatures then it's a lot more challenging to fix.

If this is the case, would they maybe suffer less with another operator? For example, how much running do XC do at 125 where there isn't OHLE? You could even add Transpennine in there, much of the faster stuff for them seem to be wired, so if you reduce top speed under diesel to say 100 or 110mph, are they likely to be more reliable once the other niggles are done away with?

And if that would be the case, could there be an argument for the next new order to be for EMR, with a view to the 810s being cascaded sooner rather than later? It would mean several years of a degraded timetable to allow them to run at reduced performance, but if the design issues are fundamental then that might be the easiest option.

Of course, reinstating the electrification program to at least Derby would also be a must.

 

[Zomboid]

Of course, reinstating the electrification program to at least Derby would also be a must

I assume you meant to say Sheffield?

Straight electric trains aren't immune from issues, but having multiple traction systems and the associated control can't be helping.

 

[HighlandStorm]

Would it be fair to say that a significant number of problems appear to be to do with running on diesel at 125mph? I know there are door lock issues, but they should be fairly easy to resolve. If things are too tightly packaged to operate reliably at full load in high ambient temperatures then it's a lot more challenging to fix.

If this is the case, would they maybe suffer less with another operator? For example, how much running do XC do at 125 where there isn't OHLE? You could even add Transpennine in there, much of the faster stuff for them seem to be wired, so if you reduce top speed under diesel to say 100 or 110mph, are they likely to be more reliable once the other niggles are done away with?

Ambient heat would be less of a factor on ScotRail and ScotRail services only operate up to 100mph...

 

[MargaretNoodle]

Would it be fair to say that a significant number of problems appear to be to do with running on diesel at 125mph? I know there are door lock issues, but they should be fairly easy to resolve. If things are too tightly packaged to operate reliably at full load in high ambient temperatures then it's a lot more challenging to fix.

I wonder if that was the case whether it is strictly necessary to run the 810s at 125mph on Diesel? As far as I can tell, and please correct me if I'm wrong but there appears to be no more than 17 miles in either direction on the non-electrified midland mainline that is above 110mph - and most of that apart from about 4 miles north of Loughborough isn't 125.

If we were to assume instant acceleration even if all 17 miles was 125mph (most is only 115/120mph by the looks of it) that's still only going to save an absolute maximum of 66 seconds. When we consider acceleration and deceleration, plus the fact most is at a lower speed limit it must surely be less than that, maybe a 30-40 seconds time saving by being able to go above 110mph. Is that significant?

 

[Teapot42]

I assume you meant to say Sheffield?

Well, to Sheffield and Nottingham would be ideal, indeed through via Wakefield to Leeds even better.

However, getting to Derby means the bulk of both routes is covered by wires, with the remainder hopefully less of an issue with bimode. I believe also some of the outstanding challenges to electrification are between Derby and Sheffield, Dronfield being one.

Straight electric trains aren't immune from issues, but having multiple traction systems and the associated control can't be helping.

Of course, but I would assume having to cram all this in to an already condensed space is likely to be a significant issue. I must say I prefer the alternative of having an intermediate motor car (not sure if there is a more accepted term) as this avoids having to cram things in to already congested spaces. Plus I'd assume makes pure electric and bimode/trimode options much easier, as the majority of the train is just pure electric.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

Cancelling them would be a wonderful opportunity for the MML to be reduced to a commuter service to Corby, with Leicester passengers being pointed towards Nuneaton, Derby towards Tamworth, Nottingham towards Grantham and Sheffield to Doncaster. I'd be careful you don't give the idiots in charge ideas.

 

[dosxuk]

Many people have already been pointed in those directions as the reliability and comfort has been so atrocious in recent years that the longer route becomes more appealing.

 

[superkev]

I think it must be nearing the time to return the lot as not fit for purpose.
I believe Brenda Ansodo which Hitachi took over were involved with the design had of course a history of returned trains.
K

 

[InTheEastMids]

I think it must be nearing the time to return the lot as not fit for purpose.
I believe Brenda Ansodo which Hitachi took over were involved with the design had of course a history of returned trains.
K

Roger Ford's long-ish read on the Cl810 in August does state that EMR probably still has the nuclear option of rejecting the entire fleet. Retaining that option may be part of the reason why EMR are not accepting new Cl810 until the existing ones have improved.

However the small problem with nuclear options is they are mutually assured destruction. Realistically, EMR would be able to keep the current minimalist service running with the ~17 222s they still operate plus probably all of the ex-Avanti Cl221 that are currently with GC or off-lease at Alstom.

This would lead to all hell breaking loose at Holyrood, because it would blow up Scotrail's IC7 plan, cause outrage in the Scottish Government and play directly into a "Westminster Government shafts the Scots again" narrative for the SNP. And as the dust settles, GBR still need to go and find a 125mph bimode with high performance on diesel. Nobody else has one proven so it'd take at least 5 years to get back to where we are now and no guarantee it'd be problem free. .

 

[superkev]

Roger Ford's long-ish read on the Cl810 in August does state that EMR probably still has the nuclear option of rejecting the entire fleet. Retaining that option may be part of the reason why EMR are not accepting new Cl810 until the existing ones have improved.

However the small problem with nuclear options is they are mutually assured destruction. Realistically, EMR would be able to keep the current minimalist service running with the ~17 222s they still operate plus probably all of the ex-Avanti Cl221 that are currently with GC or off-lease at Alstom.

This would lead to all hell breaking loose at Holyrood, because it would blow up Scotrail's IC7 plan, cause outrage in the Scottish Government and play directly into a "Westminster Government shafts the Scots again" narrative for the SNP. And as the dust settles, GBR still need to go and find a 125mph bimode with high performance on diesel. Nobody else has one proven so it'd take at least 5 years to get back to where we are now and no guarantee it'd be problem free. .

I was puzzled by Roger Fords excellent article on the 810 proplems in that he said the bodyshells were Mig welded at Newton Aycliffe rather than Hitachi preffered stir welding. Im sure I read somewhere Hitachi had invested in a stir welding facility at Aycliffe. Anyone clarify.
Also re the nuclear option has anyone have a count up of spare 221s and 180s including the GC ones which 8xx replacements in build.
Thanks

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think it must be nearing the time to return the lot as not fit for purpose.
I believe Brenda Ansodo which Hitachi took over were involved with the design had of course a history of returned trains.
K

Wouldn't disagree with returning the 810s to Hitachi but.... EMR are happily trying to use six in service everyday. If they are that poor / unsafe / rubbish then they would not be coming off Etches Park every morning. Ansaldo Breda had a terrible reputation for train building and DfT should have run due process checks before signing on the dotted line. Hitachi Europe have got the DfT by the short and curlies!!! This is after the welding / aluminium grade of metal on the previous AT300 series.

 

[YorksLad12]

This would lead to all hell breaking loose at Holyrood, because it would blow up Scotrail's IC7 plan, cause outrage in the Scottish Government and play directly into a "Westminster Government shafts the Scots again" narrative for the SNP. And as the dust settles, GBR still need to go and find a 125mph bimode with high performance on diesel. Nobody else has one proven so it'd take at least 5 years to get back to where we are now and no guarantee it'd be problem free. .

They could have the 810s...

 

[800001]

Wouldn't disagree with returning the 810s to Hitachi but.... EMR are happily trying to use six in service everyday. If they are that poor / unsafe / rubbish then they would not be coming off Etches Park every morning. Ansaldo Breda had a terrible reputation for train building and DfT should have run due process checks before signing on the dotted line. Hitachi Europe have got the DfT by the short and curlies!!! This is after the welding / aluminium grade of metal on the previous AT300 series.

since Hitachi took over the Italian factory, what units have they built/designed? How are they operating in comparison with the 810s?

It is several years (7-8+?) since Hitachi took over, you would think the past reputation could be forgotten about by now.

 

[Wyrleybart]

since Hitachi took over the Italian factory, what units have they built/designed? How are they operating in comparison with the 810s?

It is several years (7-8+?) since Hitachi took over, you would think the past reputation could be forgotten about by now.

AIUI all AT300s were expected to need corrective welding and I notice 800102 has recently moved to Eastleigh. No idea how many have been done so far.
Some folk have long memories, particularly rail enthusiasts who particularly remember farces like the TPE CAF mk5s, the £30m wasted on retractioning the 442s and more recently the GWR regional services in Devon & Cornwall (insert whichever traction)

 

[Nym]

since Hitachi took over the Italian factory, what units have they built/designed? How are they operating in comparison with the 810s?

It is several years (7-8+?) since Hitachi took over, you would think the past reputation could be forgotten about by now.

Hitachi Rail Europe's design language (and the issues it creates, particularly when using that design language in places that aren't used to it) have been brought in from the factory in Italy.

 

[Railperf]

d as the dust settles, GBR still need to go and find a 125mph bimode with high performance on diesel. Nobody else has one proven so it'd take at least 5 years to get back to where we are now and no guarantee it'd be problem free. .

The only bi-mode that offers similar acceleration to a Class 222 is the 4-car Class 755/4 with the four engined power pack. But the UK version is a 100mph product. Though the acceleration in both electric and diesel modes suggests higher speeds are possible.

The FLIRT family do have 125mph EMU versions abroad. Realistically 110mph maximum speed would be okay on diesel if the acceleration can be maintained As the 755/4 is only 80m long vs 120m for a five-car Class 810, it is most likely some intermediate vehicles will be needed, additional power bogie and most likely an additional power pack.
Reliability of these units seems to be okay.

 

[class26]

what could be done is order an emergency batch of 807`s for the Midland mainline to be used as an interim until hitachi can sort out the 810`s. When, and if the 810`s are satisfactorily sorted the 807`s could then be transfered to Cross Country with a follow up order of 807`s to give XC enough trains for the job then the 220 / 221`s will be free for whatevber the GBR deems fit.

 

[800001]

807 are electric!
805 are Bimode, but as discussed at length the carriages are to long to allow 2 x 5 car sets to be platformed at St Pancras.

what could be done is order an emergency batch of 807`s for the Midland mainline to be used as an interim until hitachi can sort out the 810`s. When, and if the 810`s are satisfactorily sorted the 807`s could then be transfered to Cross Country with a follow up order of 807`s to give XC enough trains for the job then the 220 / 221`s will be free for whatevber the GBR deems fit.

 

[MCR247]

what could be done is order an emergency batch of 807`s for the Midland mainline to be used as an interim until hitachi can sort out the 810`s. When, and if the 810`s are satisfactorily sorted the 807`s could then be transfered to Cross Country with a follow up order of 807`s to give XC enough trains for the job then the 220 / 221`s will be free for whatevber the GBR deems fit.

I’d have thought by the time any new ‘stopgap’ fleet was built, the 810 issues will have either been fixed, or be enough of a persistent problem that a permanent solution is needed. And if the latter, then it’d be a waste of time and resources training crew on a fleet that won’t be sticking around

 

[Roylang]

Some folk have long memories, particularly rail enthusiasts who particularly remember farces like the TPE CAF mk5s, the £30m wasted on retractioning the 442s and more recently the GWR regional services in Devon & Cornwall (insert whichever traction)

Well that made me feel old, those are all fairly recent debarcles to me. I would suggest those of us with long memories would talk about Skippers being a failure in Cornwall, 458s with leaks, etc.

The point is, problems on entry into service is nothing new, but they are getting worse owing to increasing reliance on technology.

Roy

 

[Wyrleybart]

what could be done is order an emergency batch of 807`s for the Midland mainline to be used as an interim until hitachi can sort out the 810`s. When, and if the 810`s are satisfactorily sorted the 807`s could then be transfered to Cross Country with a follow up order of 807`s to give XC enough trains for the job then the 220 / 221`s will be free for whatevber the GBR deems fit.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but DfT should not have concocted their very expensive 2x5 car plan and just specified around 25 9 car "super 805s". 25 of these would have 50 cabs full of very expensive kit and couplers, whereas 33 5 car 810s have 66 cabs and couplers with all the attendance issues with coupling and uncoupling several times a day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 08:39 ==

Well that made me feel old, those are all fairly recent debarcles to me. I would suggest those of us with long memories would talk about Skippers being a failure in Cornwall, 458s with leaks, etc.

The point is, problems on entry into service is nothing new, but they are getting worse owing to increasing reliance on technology.

Roy

IIRC the 458s were alleged to be a huge problem with coupling them together by depot staff at one point ?

The "Skippers" - actually the whole class 142 fleet which had to have redesigned doors, brakes and transmissions !!

Yup. Loads of memories

 

[superkev]

Richard Bowker of the excelent green signals Youtube channel put much of the blame on the gov for pausing/cancelling the wires north of Wigston. This created the need for a unique 222 performance bi mode rather than a simpler emu.. what do forum members think? Would a straight 8xx emu be much better.
K

 

[DaveyJones]

Richard Bowker of the excelent green signals Youtube channel put much of the blame on the gov for pausing/cancelling the wires north of Wigton. This created the need for a unique 222 performance bi mode rather than a simpler emu.. what do forum members think? Would a straight 8xx emu be much better.
K

When comparing the 807 and 805 performance at Avanti, i'd say a pretty serious case exists for Electric Only Units... but only if the infrastructure exists to support it

 

[Roger B]

When comparing the 807 and 805 performance at Avanti, i'd say a pretty serious case exists for Electric Only Units... but only if the infrastructure exists to support it

Ermm .. the 805s have diesel engines as well!

Pretty essential really along the north Wales coast.

 

[DaveyJones]

Ermm .. the 805s have diesel engines as well!

Pretty essential really along the north Wales coast.

Thats what i meant - the 807 sailed from Service introduction to business as Usual, the 805 Introduction was torrid for the customers on the NW Coast...

 

[NCT]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but DfT should not have concocted their very expensive 2x5 car plan and just specified around 25 9 car "super 805s". 25 of these would have 50 cabs full of very expensive kit and couplers, whereas 33 5 car 810s have 66 cabs and couplers with all the attendance issues with coupling and uncoupling several times a day.

This has been covered multiple times in this thread and others.

Remember the EMR fleet decision was made in an environment of competitive tender where DfT's main interest was maximising premium payments. A bidder that proposed running full-length trains all-day would have lost the bid. EMR is the shortest of all intercity routes, serving only medium-sized cities with no particular tourism merits, and just doesn't have the all-day off-peak demand like its East Coast or West Coast neighbours.

It's also easy to forget that EMR demand and capacity forecasts were made in an era when HS2 was expected to whisk away the majority of East Midlands demand by 2033. The Leicester demand remaining with EMR would never have justified running full-length trains all day.

 

[Snow1964]

Richard Bowker of the excelent green signals Youtube channel put much of the blame on the gov for pausing/cancelling the wires north of Wigton. This created the need for a unique 222 performance bi mode rather than a simpler emu.. what do forum members think? Would a straight 8xx emu be much better.
K

He is right in sense of making a non standard batch of trains, shortening the vehicles and trying to pack extra power into the reduced space was always a very high risk strategy.

Of course the alternative of taking wires further north, or cost of altering infrastructure to allow 15-25m platform extensions vs the cost of redesign (70% of the train) and retooling to build it and risk of this bodged design not actually working, or being years late, and requiring expensive lease extensions of 222s

805 are Bimode, but as discussed at length the carriages are to long to allow 2 x 5 car sets to be platformed at St Pancras.

With hindsight appears to be daft choice, especially as Waterloo suburban 10 car scheme had produced knowledge on how to move junctions, signals and lengthen platforms.

Roger Ford's long-ish read on the Cl810 in August does state that EMR probably still has the nuclear option of rejecting the entire fleet. Retaining that option may be part of the reason why EMR are not accepting new Cl810 until the existing ones have improved.

EMR have ended up being backed into a corner, they are continuing with what appears to be a failed design, because they have let the troubled fleet run beyond any contingency plan (without knowing if and when 810s will work, they have relinquished ongoing use of existing fleet), whereas they should have had a backstop date where an alternative was put into place (a replacement order, with extension of 222s until ready, or alternative solution). I am guessing there are dates in agreements (even if not public) where a nuclear handback option is still possible.

Maybe the 810s would have better future rebuilt as EMUs with bit of battery capacity the a diesel bimode

 

[Carlisle]

Richard Bowker of the excelent green signals Youtube channel put much of the blame on the gov for pausing/cancelling the wires north of Wigton.

Great to hear the Cumbrian Coast line is finally getting some serious investment.

 

[NCT]

In terms of train length, at the time of Abellio going to the market, 26m cars were not the accepted/established standard. In fact that was the height of backlash against the IET - poor passenger comfort and poor value for money. As far as I recall, there was no prior expectation the order would go to Hitachi - I even remember there being a period where the working assumption was an inter-city Aventra.