Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[RailWonderer]

So just to test my understanding (and perhaps to summarise for those that aren't following every twist and turn of the soap opera), there are now 2 different 810 test/training operations
- 3AXX based around Derby that are units that have been accepted by EMR, and these are operated by EMR (crew training etc.)
- 5QXX based out of Old Dalby that are units still owned by Hitachi(?) and doing testing etc., prior to handover

Not sure whether both have run on the same day yet, the Old Dalby ones seem to have been cancelled for today.


Shame. We all secretly look forward to a good old crisis with decrepit cast-offs and heritage trains being press-ganged into frontline service.

I know. We all dread the overcrowding and cancellations the shortfall of stock will cause for passengers but as enthusiasts we'd all like to see a variety of old or shortformed stock on the MML for a very short period of time.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I wouldnt call that a win-win if timetabled passenger trains are cancelled

I agree, I was being sarcastic when I wrote it, but agree that it doesn't read back that way, sorry for that.

 

[Verulamius]

810008's trip today seems to have been problematic. Delays around the Trent junctions.

Realtime Trains | 3A27 1300 Etches Park Sdgs to St Pancras International | 15/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 3A27 1300 departure from Etches Park Sdgs to St Pancras International on 15/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[liamf656]

810008's trip today seems to have been problematic. Delays around the Trent junctions.

Realtime Trains | 3A27 1300 Etches Park Sdgs to St Pancras International | 15/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 3A27 1300 departure from Etches Park Sdgs to St Pancras International on 15/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Some slight issues with the unit I believe

 

[Trainman40083]

810008's trip today seems to have been problematic. Delays around the Trent junctions.

Realtime Trains | 3A27 1300 Etches Park Sdgs to St Pancras International | 15/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 3A27 1300 departure from Etches Park Sdgs to St Pancras International on 15/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Can't have been down to me taking a picture at Spondon.

 

[ryan125hst]

I also see that despite having four engines that are uprated compared to the other AT300 bi-modes, they only have two motor vehicles compared to the usual three on a 5-coach set. Do they offer greater performance on diesel than the trains currently in service but reduced performance on electric than existing trains? Surely they can't output the same power to fewer axles even if more powerful traction motors are used?

To answer my own question here, it seems that I am correct. mfranjic has previously posted this database of technical details.

It shows that most Class 800x trains have one traction motor per axle rated at 226kW and all four axles are powered in each motor vehicle, meaning each motor vehicle has a total power output from the traction motors of 904kW, or 1,212hp. This means that on a typical 5 car unit, the total power is 2,712kW, or 3,637hp. When on diesel, they have either 575kW per engine (787hp) in the case of LNER, or 700kW (939hp) per engine in the case of the uprated units operated by GWR, Hull Trains and Transpennine Express. Therefore, the total power output from the engine is a maximum of 2,100kW, or 2,817hp. Of course you then have to deduct the auxiliary power for the air conditioning, lighting etc, plus there will be losses from the engine as heat etc. Therefore the power available on diesel is far less than when running in electric mode.

The Class 810's are different, however, as only two of the five coaches have traction motors. However, the traction motors are more powerful, at 290kW each, or 389hp. Therefore, each set has a total power output of 2,320kW, or 3,111hp. The unit has four diesel engines that are also slightly more powerful, at 736kW (987hp), and therefore the total power output from the engines is 2,944kW (3,948hp). Unlike with any other Class 80x unit, the installed diesel power exceeds the installed traction motor power. Some of this power will be used to power the air conditioning, lighting etc, and some will be lost as heat, but it seems these units are designed in a way that the diesel engine can provide enough power to allow the full output of the traction motors, or at least very close to it. They are less powerful when running on electric mode than the other Class 80x units, but do the existing trains use full power anyway? I've seen mention of DfT specified acceleration curves being lower than full power. It's also still a healthy amount of power for a five coach train. By comparison, a Class 222 has 559 kW (750 hp) engines, so a five car unit has a total engine power of 2,795kW (3,750hp).

 

[800001]

Some slight issues with the unit I believe

Do we know what caused the issue?

 

[liamf656]

Do we know what caused the issue?

Not sure I'm afraid. All I know is that it came to a stand at Draycott with fault finding taking place at Trent Junction

 

[Merle Haggard]

To answer my own question here, it seems that I am correct. mfranjic has previously posted this database of technical details.

It shows that most Class 800x trains have one traction motor per axle rated at 226kW and all four axles are powered in each motor vehicle, meaning each motor vehicle has a total power output from the traction motors of 904kW, or 1,212hp. This means that on a typical 5 car unit, the total power is 2,712kW, or 3,637hp. When on diesel, they have either 575kW per engine (787hp) in the case of LNER, or 700kW (939hp) per engine in the case of the uprated units operated by GWR, Hull Trains and Transpennine Express. Therefore, the total power output from the engine is a maximum of 2,100kW, or 2,817hp. Of course you then have to deduct the auxiliary power for the air conditioning, lighting etc, plus there will be losses from the engine as heat etc. Therefore the power available on diesel is far less than when running in electric mode.

The Class 810's are different, however, as only two of the five coaches have traction motors. However, the traction motors are more powerful, at 290kW each, or 389hp. Therefore, each set has a total power output of 2,320kW, or 3,111hp. The unit has four diesel engines that are also slightly more powerful, at 736kW (987hp), and therefore the total power output from the engines is 2,944kW (3,948hp). Unlike with any other Class 80x unit, the installed diesel power exceeds the installed traction motor power. Some of this power will be used to power the air conditioning, lighting etc, and some will be lost as heat, but it seems these units are designed in a way that the diesel engine can provide enough power to allow the full output of the traction motors, or at least very close to it. They are less powerful when running on electric mode than the other Class 80x units, but do the existing trains use full power anyway? I've seen mention of DfT specified acceleration curves being lower than full power. It's also still a healthy amount of power for a five coach train. By comparison, a Class 222 has 559 kW (750 hp) engines, so a five car unit has a total engine power of 2,795kW (3,750hp).

Interesting. I haven't seen the weight of 810s anywhere but I might have missed it. I guess, because of the dual traction, that they're heavier than 222s. How does the power/weight ratio of an 810 on diesel (3,948 hp) compare with a 222 (3,750 hp)? It's only marginally more for the former (so an increase in weight would be significant), and he latter sometimes struggle on the Down from the Kettering stop to Desborough summit - though that might be because of engines switched off.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Whilst comparing with the 222s, are their Cummins QSKs still set at 750hp, unlike the 220s and 221s which were reduced to 700hp some years ago ?

 

[hwl]

Whilst comparing with the 222s, are their Cummins QSKs still set at 750hp, unlike the 220s and 221s which were reduced to 700hp some years ago ?

All 3 22x classes are 700hp

 

[tfw756rider]

All 3 22x classes are 700hp

Why? What difference in running cost does a reduction from 750hp to 700hp even make?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Why? What difference in running cost does a reduction from 750hp to 700hp even make?

Probably extends the life of the engines in maintenance periodicity. I am guessing by reduced RPM maybe . Certainly has history with Sulzer 12LDA28Cs in class 47s which were reduced from 2750 to 2580hp

 

[tfw756rider]

Probably extends the life of the engines in maintenance periodicity. I am guessing by reduced RPM maybe . Certainly has history with Sulzer 12LDA28Cs in class 47s which were reduced from 2750 to 2580hp

Ah that makes sense then, thanks.

 

[Richard Scott]

Probably extends the life of the engines in maintenance periodicity. I am guessing by reduced RPM maybe . Certainly has history with Sulzer 12LDA28Cs in class 47s which were reduced from 2750 to 2580hp

Not wishing to drift off topic but Sulzer engines were showing signs of fatigue at higher power so had to be reduced, not quite the same as prolonging maintenance intervals as on classes 22x.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Unlike with any other Class 80x unit, the installed diesel power exceeds the installed traction motor power.

Also worth considering if the traction motors have a short term ratings that may give a further power boost during acceleration phases which would coincide with the diesel being asked for max power

 

[Richard Scott]

Also worth considering if the traction motors have a short term ratings that may give a further power boost during acceleration phases which would coincide with the diesel being asked for max power

Installed engine power exceeding motor rating certainly was common in locomotives so I would imagine in 810s by the time transmission loses and auxiliary loads are taken into account they will be comfortably within motor ratings.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Unit -09 was sitting outside the new depot building at Derby today, 1330ish, cab door open and people around. Don't know what was going on.

 

[800001]

Unit -09 was sitting outside the new depot building at Derby today, 1330ish, cab door open and people around. Don't know what was going on.

As it's there to help with training, training would be a good guess.

 

[Maddog83]

008 is in the shed or was earlier aswell. Instructor training has started.

 

[800001]

008 is in the shed or was earlier aswell. Instructor training has started.

They have started running training runs Derby to London. Instructir training ready to commence driver training very very soon.

 

[Aspen90]

Going on late in to the night too - was running until gone 2AM so there’s some serious training hours going in if that’s the case.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Also seems to have been an Old Dalby based set that spent the whole night going backwards and forwards between Kettering and Bedford.
An Old Dalby based set is now on its way to Sheffield, then looks like the plan is St Pancras via Leicester, then back to Old Dalby via Corby.

 

[50002Superb]

They have started running training runs Derby to London. Instructir training ready to commence driver training very very soon.

What’s the headcode for the Derby workings please?

 

[800001]

What’s the headcode for the Derby workings please?

3A26 and 27 I believe

 

[50002Superb]

3A26 and 27 I believe

Brilliant, thank you

 

[800001]

Going on late in to the night too - was running until gone 2AM so there’s some serious training hours going in if that’s the case.

Could be related to the fault on last week?

 

[notadriver]

Also worth considering if the traction motors have a short term ratings that may give a further power boost during acceleration phases which would coincide with the diesel being asked for max power

I’ve not seen any evidence then 80x units have any power boosts during acceleration. Information from the TMS torque outputs suggests the output is in line with the traction motor rating.

The 395s do/did have a boost however.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The traction curve is set electronically on all Hitachi 8xx units. They are governed to meet a theoretical end to end timing so as to reduce engine wear. Therefore the amount of hp you have under the floor may not directly affect the acceleration rate.

The curve on the GWR units was the subject of considerable debate when it was apparent that the electronic uplift to the hp rating (which is what all the GWR uprating is) wasn’t giving enough acceleration when it was really needed. The curve on the units had to be altered, with the aid of a laptop.

 

[ryan125hst]

Interesting. I haven't seen the weight of 810s anywhere but I might have missed it. I guess, because of the dual traction, that they're heavier than 222s. How does the power/weight ratio of an 810 on diesel (3,948 hp) compare with a 222 (3,750 hp)? It's only marginally more for the former (so an increase in weight would be significant), and he latter sometimes struggle on the Down from the Kettering stop to Desborough summit - though that might be because of engines switched off.

The database says the whole set is 237.6 tonnes. How does that compare to a Class 222?

Installed engine power exceeding motor rating certainly was common in locomotives so I would imagine in 810s by the time transmission loses and auxiliary loads are taken into account they will be comfortably within motor ratings.

It makes sense given the auxiliary loads required, particularly if ETH (Electric Train Heat) was added to a loco.

The traction curve is set electronically on all Hitachi 8xx units. They are governed to meet a theoretical end to end timing so as to reduce engine wear. Therefore the amount of hp you have under the floor may not directly affect the acceleration rate.

The curve on the GWR units was the subject of considerable debate when it was apparent that the electronic uplift to the hp rating (which is what all the GWR uprating is) wasn’t giving enough acceleration when it was really needed. The curve on the units had to be altered, with the aid of a laptop.

I don't think the GWR curve can be increased any more on diesel though can it? I thought there were engine limitations at certain speeds, particularly if the torque suddenly reduced?