Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[PG]

Tho I admit this is to assume that DfT would think the passengers paying their ever increasing fares actually deserve properly maintained and smart trains to travel in...both now and when moved to a new user where there capacity is no doubt desperately needed.

Is it just me thinking that politics might come into play here? Reasonable probability that the majority of the fleet go to Scotrail so letting them pick up the bill for sorting defects keeps the DfT kitty fuller...

 

[WesternLancer]

Is it just me thinking that politics might come into play here? Reasonable probability that the majority of the fleet go to Scotrail so letting them pick up the bill for sorting defects keeps the DfT kitty fuller...

Surely not….);

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for the discussion of Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread elsewhere.

Now can we get back on topic please.

thanks

 

[XCTurbostar]

Looks like today's 810 Tests: 5Q41, 5Q42 & 5Q43 are non-runners as well.

 

[QSK19]

I get the feeling more and more that introduction will start 2026, never mind be under way come the new year. The continuous issues really are getting (or maybe I should write “have got”) ridiculous.

Lessons must be learned once this wretched introduction is completed.

 

[tram21]

I get the feeling more and more that introduction will start 2026, never mind be under way come the new year. The continuous issues really are getting (or maybe I should write “have got”) ridiculous.

Lessons must be learned once this wretched introduction is completed.

We don't know that there are ongoing issues? Unless I'm mistaken there's not been any specific issues with the production apart from it's been very very slow and far behind schedule.

I do wonder why testing remains very few and far between though, although afaik the testing has been successful so far

 

[800001]

We don't know that there are ongoing issues? Unless I'm mistaken there's not been any specific issues with the production apart from it's been very very slow and far behind schedule.

I do wonder why testing remains very few and far between though, although afaik the testing has been successful so far

There are some very specific issues been talked about internally at hitachi by staff working on the units, however as there is nothing officially confirmed that’s why it is not documented on here.

 

[D365]

There are some very specific issues been talked about internally at hitachi by staff working on the units, however as there is nothing officially confirmed that’s why it is not documented on here.

And I suspect that this is how it will remain for now.

 

[Discuss223]

I'm not sure how the specific issues spoken of can be arising so numerously when the Class 810 is similar in design and build to the Class 801, 802 etc. I know the carriage lengths are different and the nose cone and seating but how much of the equipment such as components and wiring is a completely new design?

 

[LowLevel]

I'm not sure how the specific issues spoken of can be arising so numerously when the Class 810 is similar in design and build to the Class 801, 802 etc. I know the carriage lengths are different and the nose cone and seating but how much of the equipment such as components and wiring is a completely new design?

All sorts of systems and fittings have been changed, either in their type or supplier, some of which have perhaps had unintended consequences?

There's plenty about them that has nothing in common with the other builds.

 

[800001]

I'm not sure how the specific issues spoken of can be arising so numerously when the Class 810 is similar in design and build to the Class 801, 802 etc. I know the carriage lengths are different and the nose cone and seating but how much of the equipment such as components and wiring is a completely new design?

About 70% of the train is a new design compared to all previous models!

 

[poffle]

About 70% of the train is a new design compared to all previous models!

805s have given quite a bit of trouble on Avanti particularly on diesel. I do think that lots of microfleets individually redesigned for each ToC isn't a great idea for the rail industry overall. Disproportionate amount of troubleshooting required and when these need to go for another life somewhere else in the network it's going to create more difficulties.

 

[DaveyJones]

805s have given quite a bit of trouble on Avanti particularly on diesel. I do think that lots of microfleets individually redesigned for each ToC isn't a great idea for the rail industry overall. Disproportionate amount of troubleshooting required and when these need to go for another life somewhere else in the network it's going to create more difficulties.

Hopefully Avanti's trauma will be to the Aurora's benefit...

 

[Discuss223]

Hopefully Avanti's trauma will be to the Aurora's benefit...

Are they mechanically similar?

 

[STINT47]

Anyone willing to bet that it will be 2027 before they are in service?

 

[800001]

Anyone willing to bet that it will be 2027 before they are in service?

If it takes that long, then Hitachi really need to close the factory.

 

[ChrisC]

Anyone willing to bet that it will be 2027 before they are in service?

I think it was earlier in this long thread, when there were already significant delays but not as bad as it’s now become, compensation for the delay was discussed. Some people suggested that EMR might get a couple of very useful extra units as compensation, but it was made clear back then that was not going to happen.

 

[800001]

I think it was earlier in this long thread, when there were already significant delays but not as bad as it’s now become, compensation for the delay was discussed. Some people suggested that EMR might get a couple of very useful extra units as compensation, but it was made clear back then that was not going to happen.

They won’t get free units.
There will be financial penalties within the contract. Where if Hitachi do not deliver against that contract, then ‘fines’ will
Kick in.

 

[43096]

About 70% of the train is a new design compared to all previous models!

And? Hitachi signed the contract to deliver in the agreed timescales. Assuming they are a vaguely competent rolling stock manufacturer* they should have known what was involved.

* given the involvement of the former Ansaldo Breda sites and their lengthy rap sheet of appalling builds, that may be questionable.

 

[800001]

And? Hitachi signed the contract to deliver in the agreed timescales. Assuming they are a vaguely competent rolling stock manufacturer* they should have known what was involved.

* given the involvement of the former Ansaldo Breda sites and their lengthy rap sheet of appalling builds, that may be questionable.

And what?
I answered a question someone asked about similarity’s between other units. That is all.

 

[DaveyJones]

Are they mechanically similar?

I'd be surprised if Hitachi have developed 2 different engine units to the same emissions regulations

 

[QSK19]

They won’t get free units.
There will be financial penalties within the contract. Where if Hitachi do not deliver against that contract, then ‘fines’ will
Kick in.

Indeed. A check on Companies House of Rock Rail East Midlands shows “liquidated damages” revenue of £15.29m in their 2023 accounts.

At this rate, we’ll see more such revenue in the 2024 accounts!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

I'd be surprised if Hitachi have developed 2 different engine units to the same emissions regulations

I was under the impression that the 805s have the same engine as the 810s albeit de-rated. I stand to be corrected, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

Anyone willing to bet that it will be 2027 before they are in service?

I would stake a quid!

 

[STINT47]

The only silver lining that I can see from this is that the compensation can be used to improve rail in the East Midlands.

Some investment in stations and some cheaper fares would be a good start.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed. A check on Companies House of Rock Rail East Midlands shows “liquidated damages” revenue of £15.29m in their 2023 accounts.

Thats the only payment from Hitachi for LDs but more than likely they will have more to come in FY24. Looking a lousy investment for Rock Rail they've expended best part of £500m on acquiring the units on debt which should have started amortising from 24 with no lease income to fund it is likely to have required an amendment to loan terms.

 

[Discuss223]

The only silver lining that I can see from this is that the compensation can be used to improve rail in the East Midlands.

So could the money saved by not ordering them and keeping the perfectly adequate existing fleet.

 

[43074]

So could the money saved by not ordering them and keeping the perfectly adequate existing fleet.

I don't think the 222s are "perfectly adequate" these days, there aren't enough of them to run the number of 10-cars that are needed these days (shown by how often the 0630 from Sheffield/1732 from St Pancras are short formed to 5-cars) and there's no point investing in electrification but not having a fleet of trains which can take full advantage of it.

 

[Trainbike46]

And? Hitachi signed the contract to deliver in the agreed timescales. Assuming they are a vaguely competent rolling stock manufacturer* they should have known what was involved.

* given the involvement of the former Ansaldo Breda sites and their lengthy rap sheet of appalling builds, that may be questionable.

is the former AnsaldoBreda site involved with the 810s? I thought this was all Newton Aycliffe?

 

[QSK19]

is the former AnsaldoBreda site involved with the 810s? I thought this was all Newton Aycliffe?

I think (part of) 810002 is there for wind tunnel testing?

 

[800001]

I think (part of) 810002 is there for wind tunnel testing?

Some coaches of 810002 are in Italy at the Pistoia plant, and I believe the design work was also done there for the 810s

 

[QSK19]

Some coaches of 810002 are in Italy at the Pistoia plant, and I believe the design work was also done there for the 810s

Many thanks for clarifying.