Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Merle Haggard]

I thought they had started ‘repairing’ the damaged seating on 222s many months ago?

It's not just the seats that are not well maintained ...

 

[D365]

It's not just the seats that are not well maintained ...

As far as I’m aware, and given that they are intensively used, Etches Park is doing the best they can for the 222s.

 

[liamf656]

Current plan is September time. There are 4 '810-ready' diagrams which can be made Class 810 operated whenever they are ready.

The full rollout will be complete by December 2026

Have you got a source for this info? Even if it's true I don't actually see them in service that soon

 

[tram21]

Have you got a source for this info? Even if it's true I don't actually see them in service that soon

There was a bit in the Rail magazine from two weeks ago about it. I'll see if I can take a photo later.

 

[800001]

There was a bit in the Rail magazine from two weeks ago about it. I'll see if I can take a photo later.

I take what RAIL magazine print with a pinch of salt.
I believe that article mentions 10 car testing complete, or nearly complete? (Can’t remember the wording), however 10 car testing has not even commenced yet.

In the article they quote unit numbers in testing phase and routine testing, but repeat unit numbers , there is no accuracy or fact checking with what they write.
Also they state units up to 810021 are in assembly, but then say vehicles from 027 are involved in climate chamber testing. Nothing makes sense in the article.

 

[tram21]

I take what RAIL magazine print with a pinch of salt.
I believe that article mentions 10 car testing complete, or nearly complete? (Can’t remember the wording), however 10 car testing has not even commenced yet.

In the article they quote unit numbers in testing phase and routine testing, but repeat unit numbers , there is no accuracy or fact checking with what they write.
Also they state units up to 810021 are in assembly, but then say vehicles from 027 are involved in climate chamber testing. Nothing makes sense in the article.

I do tend to agree. I had heard the September/ Autumn date elsewhere too, but we'll see if it happens. At this point we can just hope testing continues to go well, and hopefully we'll be able to ride them soon.

 

[Snow1964]

Current plan is September time. There are 4 '810-ready' diagrams which can be made Class 810 operated whenever they are ready.

The full rollout will be complete by December 2026

I will believe it when they enter service.

The order was placed in July 2019, so that will be over 6 years (and at time of ordering were due to enter service in 2022), so running 3-4 years late

Abellio invests £400 million in new trains for East Midlands Railway | EMR

Abellio UK, recently awarded the new eight-year EMR franchise by the Department for Transport, has awarded a £400 million contract to Hitachi Rail to build a pioneering new fleet of intercity trains.

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

 

[norbitonflyer]

It's not just the seats that are not well maintained ...

Had a trip on a 222 to Sheffield and back last week. It seemed to be very well maintained (apart from one toilet out of order). Certainly nothing wrong with the seats.

How can they be so much better than the Voyagers, which are basically the same body and underfloor?

 

[43066]

Had a trip on a 222 to Sheffield and back last week. It seemed to be very well maintained (apart from one toilet out of order). Certainly nothing wrong with the seats.

How can they be so much better than the Voyagers, which are basically the same body and underfloor?

They’re a later evolution of the design, albeit I think the Voyagers are also fairly bombproof mechanically?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2025 ==

Current plan is September time. There are 4 '810-ready' diagrams which can be made Class 810 operated whenever they are ready.

The full rollout will be complete by December 2026

That certainly isn’t anything that’s been announced internally. Training is expected to commence this year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2025 ==

I take what RAIL magazine print with a pinch of salt.
I believe that article mentions 10 car testing complete, or nearly complete? (Can’t remember the wording), however 10 car testing has not even commenced yet.

In the article they quote unit numbers in testing phase and routine testing, but repeat unit numbers , there is no accuracy or fact checking with what they write.
Also they state units up to 810021 are in assembly, but then say vehicles from 027 are involved in climate chamber testing. Nothing makes sense in the article.

Rather poor and lazy journalism really.

 

[tram21]

That certainly isn’t anything that’s been announced internally. Training is expected to commence this year.

Ah okay my apologies. That's what I had understood from an internal source but I may have been mistaken. Let's hope for at least one diagram before the end of the year!

 

[Discuss223]

I will believe it when they enter service.

The order was placed in July 2019, so that will be over 6 years (and at time of ordering were due to enter service in 2022), so running 3-4 years late

Abellio invests £400 million in new trains for East Midlands Railway | EMR

Abellio UK, recently awarded the new eight-year EMR franchise by the Department for Transport, has awarded a £400 million contract to Hitachi Rail to build a pioneering new fleet of intercity trains.

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

If I recall correctly, the Class 222, predecessors of 810s were ordered in 2002 and delivered in to service by late 2004, just two and a half years later. This goes to highlight how humorously lengthy the introduction of Auroras is turning out to be.

 

[43066]

Ah okay my apologies. That's what I had understood from an internal source but I may have been mistaken.

No worries - there are always rumours! It has been stated internally that diagrams are going to be remaining roughly as they now are until they 810s are introduced. They’ve been fairly tight lipped about specific dates, probably rightly, because it keeps slipping. The article mentioned above is miles off and mostly nonsense.

Let's hope for at least one diagram before the end of the year!

Absolutely mate. Training should be well under way by the end of the year, so entry into service in 2026 seems feasible, based on a “finger in the air”.

 

[PG]

The first unit is not due to hand over to EMR until June/July, I find September as very unlikely.
The dates for every milestone with this fleet just keep slipping, and slipping and slipping.

Beginning to wonder now if they've been following the SWR guide to introducing new traction...

 

[43066]

Beginning to wonder now if they've been following the SWR guide to introducing new traction...

The stock is still being built and tested - very much not the same situation as SWR where most of the 701 fleet was physically built and handed over years ago!

 

[800001]

Beginning to wonder now if they've been following the SWR guide to introducing new traction...

Don’t think we can blame EMR for this, from my sources from both Hitachi and EMR, the blame (99%) lays firmly with Hitachi.

Poor project management, poor workmanship on the unit.

EMR are just as bewildered as the rest of us regards these units.

 

[PG]

The stock is still being built and tested - very much not the same situation as SWR where most of the 701 fleet was physically built and handed over years ago!

Don’t think we can blame EMR for this, from my sources from both Hitachi and EMR, the blame (99%) lays firmly with Hitachi.

Poor project management, poor workmanship on the unit.

EMR are just as bewildered as the rest of us regards these units.

Thanks to you both, I am both better informed and humbled.

 

[Carlisle]

I will believe it when they enter service.

The order was placed in July 2019, so that will be over 6 years (and at time of ordering were due to enter service in 2022), so running 3-4 years late

Indeed, for whatever reasons it’s a great shame such a sizeable part of the industry has totally lost the plot on introducing new stock in reasonable timescales post Covid.

 

[43066]

Don’t think we can blame EMR for this, from my sources from both Hitachi and EMR, the blame (99%) lays firmly with Hitachi.

Poor project management, poor workmanship on the unit.

EMR are just as bewildered as the rest of us regards these units.

Covid is still trotted out, but that’s wearing a bit thin when the start of the pandemic is coming up to five years ago now, hard to believe as that is.

 

[liamf656]

Covid is still trotted out, but that’s wearing a bit thin when the start of the pandemic is coming up to five years ago now, hard to believe as that is.

How long was production affected by Covid, directly? Because I think even if the demic had never happened we'd still be waiting a long time for these trains!

Had a trip on a 222 to Sheffield and back last week. It seemed to be very well maintained (apart from one toilet out of order). Certainly nothing wrong with the seats.

How can they be so much better than the Voyagers, which are basically the same body and underfloor?

Bombardier had learned from the Voyagers and tweaked the bits that were less than average when building the 222s. The lack of tilt in the Meridians is also a bonus as it meant they didn't need to narrow the body making it feel airy. The recent reupholstering in standard class is also well received.

Unfortunately a few let downs are the ongoing issues with the TMS/reservations, WiFi, the toilets and the high usage of tape holding things together. I'd imagine it is difficult though given that the loss of the 180s has stretched the fleet very thinly. Hopefully the 222s get a good refurbishment post-EMR and become amazing units again

 

[43066]

How long was production affected by Covid, directly? Because I think even if the demic had never happened we'd still be waiting a long time for these trains!

Indeed. It’s just nonsense, really.

 

[Snow1964]

How long was production affected by Covid, directly? Because I think even if the demic had never happened we'd still be waiting a long time for these trains!

The covid restrictions were reintroduced by area, so there is no exact duration, but 13-16 months is the usually accepted as cumulative disruption period.

Being generous anyone claiming a delay of over 18 months is solely due to covid is not being 100% honest.

 

[Nym]

One does also need to consider the changes brought in by the EU-Exit Regulations and transitioning from TSI to NTSN regulations and this being one of the first 'new' fleets since then.

Also the significant challenges of the many, many technical changes and wish list for this fleet when compared with running off some more of the same.

 

[MCR247]

How long was production affected by Covid, directly? Because I think even if the demic had never happened we'd still be waiting a long time for these trains!


Bombardier had learned from the Voyagers and tweaked the bits that were less than average when building the 222s. The lack of tilt in the Meridians is also a bonus as it meant they didn't need to narrow the body making it feel airy. The recent reupholstering in standard class is also well received.

Unfortunately a few let downs are the ongoing issues with the TMS/reservations, WiFi, the toilets and the high usage of tape holding things together. I'd imagine it is difficult though given that the loss of the 180s has stretched the fleet very thinly. Hopefully the 222s get a good refurbishment post-EMR and become amazing units again

Do the 222s not still use a tapered bodyshell? I thought they did

 

[Merle Haggard]

As far as I’m aware, and given that they are intensively used, Etches Park is doing the best they can for the 222s.

Had a trip on a 222 to Sheffield and back last week. It seemed to be very well maintained (apart from one toilet out of order). Certainly nothing wrong with the seats.

How can they be so much better than the Voyagers, which are basically the same body and underfloor?

It's the attention to detail that I had in mind, summed up by

/snip/

Unfortunately a few let downs are the ongoing issues with the TMS/reservations, WiFi, the toilets and the high usage of tape holding things together. I'd imagine it is difficult though given that the loss of the 180s has stretched the fleet very thinly. Hopefully the 222s get a good refurbishment post-EMR and become amazing units again

The impression is created that once something's broken that's that; for instance, when a lavatory soap dispenser is broken it seems that, rather than repair it, there's just a supply of soap bottles, and when the vestibule door buttons don't work there's a (printed, house colours) label attached advising to use the foot stud.

It may be that expenditure on maintenance is very restricted because the trains only have a short-term future with EMR but there's a problem with that; before being returned to the lessees all these defects will have to be repaired anyway. For instance, the problem with vestibule door buttons is said to be that they are obsolete implying not longer made but that will have presumably have to be resolved before the trains are returned.

On the other hand, station staff and on-board people that I encounter are among the friendliest and most helpful anywhere on the network. That's why the tatty toilets, non-working doors - and seemingly always dirty windows - are such a disappointment.

 

[tram21]

On the other hand, station staff and on-board people that I encounter are among the friendliest and most helpful anywhere on the network.

Completely agree, its the main reason I enjoy travelling with EMR because the onboard staff are always amazing

 

[XCTurbostar]

Looks like todays 810 Test is a non-runner.

 

[Bikeman78]

It may be that expenditure on maintenance is very restricted because the trains only have a short-term future with EMR but there's a problem with that; before being returned to the lessees all these defects will have to be repaired anyway. For instance, the problem with vestibule door buttons is said to be that they are obsolete implying not longer made but that will have presumably have to be resolved before the trains are returned.

The buttons look pretty similar to hundreds of other door buttons used on many different types of unit. Even if they are obsolete, precuring a different type shouldn't be that hard. As you say, all the defects will need sorting before the units are handed back, so they might as well get on with it now. They are very tightly diagrammed. I did have the diagrams but I have mislaid them. I think it is 24 diagrams for 27 units.

 

[PG]

As you say, all the defects will need sorting before the units are handed back, so they might as well get on with it now. They are very tightly diagrammed. I did have the diagrams but I have mislaid them. I think it is 24 diagrams for 27 units.

Of course it could be with that high level of availability that they can't do anything other than routine maintenance. Might the Rosco get them back as is and get Widnes (or somewhere) to rectify faults, then invoice EMR?

 

[D365]

Of course it could be with that high level of availability that they can't do anything other than routine maintenance. Might the Rosco get them back as is and get Widnes (or somewhere) to rectify faults, then invoice EMR?

Yes that’s spot on. Unplanned maintenance is undertaken at Central Rivers due to limited capacity at Etches Park, but this results in more units than normal being out of traffic. I’m not sure what arrangements will be made wrt handback.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes that’s spot on. Unplanned maintenance is undertaken at Central Rivers due to limited capacity at Etches Park, but this results in more units than normal being out of traffic. I’m not sure what arrangements will be made wrt handback.

You would think (hope?) that at handback they would go for a proper mid life refurb before heading to a new operator so in reality what would be the point in fixing relatively minor trim and button type issues that absolutely create a very poor impression for the current passenger, but would go in the scrap bin when any proper refurb work go underway.

Tho I admit this is to assume that DfT would think the passengers paying their ever increasing fares actually deserve properly maintained and smart trains to travel in...both now and when moved to a new user where there capacity is no doubt desperately needed.