Class 802 IET on Night Riviera

[Bletchleyite]

IET replacements are probably more common than HST replacements were - as when there were a lot of HST power cars around, they could be put on the sleeper rake ahead of a class 57 if needed

Only the buffer fitted ones surely?

 

[Darandio]

Only the buffer fitted ones surely?

Non-buffer ones have deputised a few times using the drawbar.

 

[D6975]

Only the buffer fitted ones surely?

GWR didn't have any buffer fitted PCs. Ordinary PCs and drawbar have rescued/subbed for a 57 on the sleeper several times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Non-buffer ones have deputised a few times using the drawbar.

GWR didn't have any buffer fitted PCs. Ordinary PCs and drawbar have rescued/subbed for a 57 on the sleeper several times.

Thanks both. Must admit I thought that was for emergencies only - you learn something new every day!

 

[superalbs]

Thanks both. Must admit I thought that was for emergencies only - you learn something new every day!

People not getting a good night of sleep IS an emergency!

 

[dciuk]

Penzance has near enough the same number of HST power cars on shed each night as before.

But are there any drivers that sign both HST's and the route into Paddington? Also are HST power cars still route cleared for Paddington as I recall reading previously they were not (but I am not sure if that only applied to a "full" 4+2 Castle Set)

 

[185143]

But are there any drivers that sign both HST's and the route into Paddington? Also are HST power cars still route cleared for Paddington as I recall reading previously they were not (but I am not sure if that only applied to a "full" 4+2 Castle Set)

The NMT has been into Paddington very recently, so yes to the last point.

 

[Nym]

IET replacements are probably more common than HST replacements were - as when there were a lot of HST power cars around, they could be put on the sleeper rake ahead of a class 57 if needed

Except for the small matter of providing ETH to the carriages?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except for the small matter of providing ETH to the carriages?

Presumably "ahead of the 57" means it would still be in the formation to provide that, and this would only be workable if the fault wasn't one that completely knocked it out, just e.g. a cab fault?

I must admit I was surprised that once the Plymouth portion was dropped they didn't convert the coaches to HST hotel power and just stick a power car on each end, thus standardising the fleet.

 

[irish_rail]

But are there any drivers that sign both HST's and the route into Paddington? Also are HST power cars still route cleared for Paddington as I recall reading previously they were not (but I am not sure if that only applied to a "full" 4+2 Castle Set)

Plymouth and Exeter drivers sign both HSTs and the route into Paddington. Although I'm unsure of the relevance to this discussion?

 

[dciuk]

Plymouth and Exeter drivers sign both HSTs and the route into Paddington. Although I'm unsure of the relevance to this discussion?

Because HST power cars have been used in the past when a 57 has not been available and someone mentioned that Penzance still have about the same number of HST's on depot as they had when the (day time) Paddington services were run using an HST.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Power cars dragging the sleeper all the way to Pad would be a logistical problem although not impossible,although IIRC some have had their ATP isolated which I believe would stop them working past RDG. PAD drivers HST knowledge has probably long since lapsed so no PAD driver could move them around/drag them back to RDG depot. If the up sleeper failed in the West Country and cleared using power cars I'd imagine an IET replacement would be found for it due to lack of ETH. If failed beyond the West Country the 57 waiting at RDG for it would probably be sent for.

 

[43096]

I must admit I was surprised that once the Plymouth portion was dropped they didn't convert the coaches to HST hotel power and just stick a power car on each end, thus standardising the fleet.

There were no spare power cars available at the time to be able to implement this.

 

[Mogz]

Perhaps as a contingency the answer would be for GWR to have a specific IET set kitted out with Couchette style accommodation that can be bench style seating with side corridor during normal times but converted to lie-flat berths if an IET has to stand in for the sleeper.

Just a thought…

 

[JN114]

Perhaps as a contingency the answer would be for GWR to have a specific IET set kitted out with Couchette style accommodation that can be bench style seating with side corridor during normal times but converted to lie-flat berths if an IET has to stand in for the sleeper.

Just a thought…

And if it’s on its way through Llansamlet enroute to Swansea when the Up Sleeper fails at Camborne? Your special unit is 300mi away, so you’re left subbing a normal IET despite all the expense on the “special” replacement. So you’d actually need a whole fleet of them, and diagram them (and keep them on those diagrams) so that 1 was always near-ish Paddington with enough Fuel to get to Penzance at 2300 each evening, and 1 was always near-ish Penzance with enough Fuel to get to London at 2100 each evening.

The existing contingency measures are well practiced, and well-enough received by passengers. On top of that we’re generally talking 2-3 times a year tops that it happens.

 

[irish_rail]

The existing contingency measures are well practiced, and well-enough received by passengers. On top of that we’re generally talking 2-3 times a year tops that it hahappens

Its a little more frequent than 3 times a year to be fair. Although should improve now ,with driver training at Plymouth on 57s due to resume shortly (the plan for Plymouth to lose 57 knowledge in favour of Penzance drivers doing it thankfully having been dropped!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2021 ==

Power cars dragging the sleeper all the way to Pad would be a logistical problem although not impossible,although IIRC some have had their ATP isolated which I believe would stop them working past RDG. PAD drivers HST knowledge has probably long since lapsed so no PAD driver could move them around/drag them back to RDG depot. If the up sleeper failed in the West Country and cleared using power cars I'd imagine an IET replacement would be found for it due to lack of ETH. If failed beyond the West Country the 57 waiting at RDG for it would probably be sent for.

No ATP isolated on any castle class power cars , all still have ATP fitted and working.

 

[ValleyLines142]

And if it’s on its way through Llansamlet enroute to Swansea when the Up Sleeper fails at Camborne? Your special unit is 300mi away, so you’re left subbing a normal IET despite all the expense on the “special” replacement. So you’d actually need a whole fleet of them, and diagram them (and keep them on those diagrams) so that 1 was always near-ish Paddington with enough Fuel to get to Penzance at 2300 each evening, and 1 was always near-ish Penzance with enough Fuel to get to London at 2100 each evening.

The existing contingency measures are well practiced, and well-enough received by passengers. On top of that we’re generally talking 2-3 times a year tops that it happens.

I think what @Mogz was suggesting having a IET unit as a reserve exclusively for Sleeper services, not one that is still used in regular service.

Perhaps 800026 (or whichever one is out of use still).

 

[Horizon22]

Perhaps as a contingency the answer would be for GWR to have a specific IET set kitted out with Couchette style accommodation that can be bench style seating with side corridor during normal times but converted to lie-flat berths if an IET has to stand in for the sleeper.

Just a thought…

Sometimes its been as a result of infrastructure issues & delays as opposed to a specific issue with the set so this would in no way resolve this problem and than that specific IET could be anywhere on the network at a given time. The diagrams cycle around depots quite often.

The IET fleet is completely stretched right now, having a "reserve" would be a complete waste of resources (even if it wasn't stretch it would still be a waste to be used maybe once every few months)

 

[Jim]

Down to 57 driver availability (sickness)

Not at all.

 

[JN114]

I think what @Mogz was suggesting having a IET unit as a reserve exclusively for Sleeper services, not one that is still used in regular service.

Perhaps 800026 (or whichever one is out of use still).

And which end do you keep it at? London or Penzance - there’s only 300mi between them if you pick the wrong one.

 

[43096]

I think what @Mogz was suggesting having a IET unit as a reserve exclusively for Sleeper services, not one that is still used in regular service.

Perhaps 800026 (or whichever one is out of use still).

Given that the Night Riviera is a financial basket case as it is, adding an 80x as a dedicated “just in case” for use 10 times per year is going to utterly cripple it, to the point that shutting the service completely would be the only realistic decision.

 

[FGW_DID]

Not at all.

that was the info I saw.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not at all.

Would you be able to perhaps correct him then, or did you just want to say he was wrong with nothing more to add

 

[tcm1106]

Nothing to do with driver issues (Friday night at least).
Lack of staff availability at Long Rock due to sickness, which essentially meant there was no way to facilitate entry and exit off the depot.

 

[irish_rail]

Nothing to do with driver issues (Friday night at least).
Lack of staff availability at Long Rock due to sickness, which essentially meant there was no way to facilitate entry and exit off the depot.

So how did they get the 802 on and off?

 

[dciuk]

So how did they get the 802 on and off?

Checking RTT, looks like it arrived on an inbound service from Paddington 20 minutes before departure

Realtime Trains - 1C88 1604 London Paddington to Penzance

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 1A50 2145 Penzance to London Paddington

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[ValleyLines142]

And which end do you keep it at? London or Penzance - there’s only 300mi between them if you pick the wrong one.

Well this is what I was thinking!