Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[Dave1987]

Only 26 are needed to run the full rural service. There are 38 of them. Not a waste, the tables and superior seating would be put to good use on the IC.

But it is only 1hr 40mins from London to Norwich. London to Clacton is 1hr 30mins and doesn’t get tables and "superior seating". It is a waste as you are taking out several bi-modes from the normal diagramming to sit idle just in case a 745 isn’t available. For the sake of tables and the seats far better to diagram in some 720's. Then you keep traction knowledge up so more depots sign the traction that is going to be the most prevalent on GEML. It makes so much sense for 720's to form a few London - Norwich services, even if that means some people have to make do without a table for their hour-long journey.

 

[Dave1987]

If a 745 fails at Norwich at the start of the day then it's far more likely there will be a spare 755 in the area rather than a 720. Conversely, if one of the sets stabled in London fails, the only replacement will be a 720.

There should be sufficient 745's so if one fails it will be replaced with another 745 if 720's are used for some services.

On a more general note, I can't help thinking they should have ordered an extra 745 and two fewer 720s.

But then you would have the same situation you have now where a main line depot does not sign the ubiquitous traction i.e Norwich do not sign 321's. Some links at Norwich will sign 720's which means that all mainline depots will sign the ubiquitous traction on GEML which will be 720's.

 

[samuelmorris]

Given the specification of the 720s, it'll be far less problematic if one substitutes for the proper stock than 321s as present.

 

[Bikeman78]

There should be sufficient 745's so if one fails it will be replaced with another 745 if 720's are used for some services.



But then you would have the same situation you have now where a main line depot does not sign the ubiquitous traction i.e Norwich do not sign 321's. Some links at Norwich will sign 720's which means that all mainline depots will sign the ubiquitous traction on GEML which will be 720's.

If there are enough 745s to cover all the diagrams, why would Norwich need to sign 720s?

 

[RailWonderer]

But it is only 1hr 40mins from London to Norwich. London to Clacton is 1hr 30mins and doesn’t get tables and "superior seating". It is a waste as you are taking out several bi-modes from the normal diagramming to sit idle just in case a 745 isn’t available. For the sake of tables and the seats far better to diagram in some 720's. Then you keep traction knowledge up so more depots sign the traction that is going to be the most prevalent on GEML. It makes so much sense for 720's to form a few London - Norwich services, even if that means some people have to make do without a table for their hour-long journey.

Eventually it doesn't matter what you or I think, GA's bid team did not consult the operations team so as a result, 720s are becoming permanent traction on the IC, which never should have happened. Clacton has never been IC. It's about passengers being given a proper service, the rail network doesn't exist only for the ultimate convenience of staff.

 

[dk1]

It's about passengers being given a proper service, the rail network doesn't exist only for the ultimate convenience of staff.

Like the good old BR days. Only if its 'operationally convenient'

 

[colchesterken]

I remember when Clacton was considered important, it could be said that the red 309s as original spec were better than what was used on the Norwich run at the time
If I remember it was under powered class 40s and second hand coaches, I think back in 1962 they were still using pre BR Mk 1 stock

 

[Dave1987]

Eventually it doesn't matter what you or I think, GA's bid team did not consult the operations team so as a result, 720s are becoming permanent traction on the IC, which never should have happened. Clacton has never been IC. It's about passengers being given a proper service, the rail network doesn't exist only for the ultimate convenience of staff.

Well that is in totally contrary to what I have been told. I am informed that the "Clacton Express" used to run. Passengers are being given a proper service. The passenger loadings in normal times are greatest between London and Ipswich. That is a 1hr 10min journey. Even London to Norwich is on 1hr 40mins. Hardly the 3hr plus journeys on other routes. For that time frame I am sure 720's will be an OK substitute for the services they will run instead of a 745. And I am sure people will be able to cope without tables, first class and a cafe bar when 745/1's substitute for a 745/0.

 

[Dave1987]

If there are enough 745s to cover all the diagrams, why would Norwich need to sign 720s?

For operational convenience. At the moment you have a ridiculous situation where a handful of depots do not sign the most common traction on the route they sign. I think people get so bleary-eyed about the old hauled sets they seem to forget that their replacements the 745's are very much the minority south of Ipswich. There will be over 10 720's for every 1 745. So operationally it very much makes sense for Norwich to sign 720's as well as 745's. It gives a lot of flexibility going forward.

 

[dk1]

Well that is in totally contrary to what I have been told. I am informed that the "Clacton Express" used to run. Passengers are being given a proper service. The passenger loadings in normal times are greatest between London and Ipswich. That is a 1hr 10min journey. Even London to Norwich is on 1hr 40mins. Hardly the 3hr plus journeys on other routes. For that time frame I am sure 720's will be an OK substitute for the services they will run instead of a 745. And I am sure people will be able to cope without tables, first class and a cafe bar when 745/1's substitute for a 745/0.

It's the other way around. 745/0s are Intercity.

 

[Dave1987]

It's the other way around. 745/0s are Intercity.

Sorry I worded that terribly.

 

[Dave1987]

On a positive note. 745's are arriving early everywhere now because of the much better performance.

 

[Bikeman78]

For operational convenience. At the moment you have a ridiculous situation where a handful of depots do not sign the most common traction on the route they sign. I think people get so bleary-eyed about the old hauled sets they seem to forget that their replacements the 745's are very much the minority south of Ipswich. There will be over 10 720's for every 1 745. So operationally it very much makes sense for Norwich to sign 720's as well as 745's. It gives a lot of flexibility going forward.

Perhaps they shouldn't have bothered with the 745s at all and just ordered more 720s? Although they'd be well and truly in the brown stuff now if they had done that.

 

[Dave1987]

Perhaps they shouldn't have bothered with the 745s at all and just ordered more 720s? Although they'd be well and truly in the brown stuff now if they had done that.

I'm not quite sure why there is such uproar about 720's operating in place of 745's on some services. In the future, I am sure there will be known diagrams that the 745/0's operate and I am sure lots will make sure they travel on those services. The people who are not so bothered about traveling on a 720 will probably have a bit more room. But at the end of the day all drivers on the mainline signing the more prevalent traction is operationally advantageous. Because there will be so few 745's on the GE mainline all drivers don't need to sign them.

 

[dk1]

Perhaps they shouldn't have bothered with the 745s at all and just ordered more 720s? Although they'd be well and truly in the brown stuff now if they had done that.

From what you hear it was the only way of getting the bimodes. Stadler where the only builder capable of offering them in the timeframe but the order wasntblsrge enough hence them getting the 20 745s.

 

[dk1]

On a positive note. 745's are arriving early everywhere now because of the much better performance.

Oh yes. They are like rockets and unfortunately still on class 90/DVT timings. I have spent as much as 19 minutes just sitting at stations on a standard journey on the GEML. No need for line speed either much of the time.

 

[RailWonderer]

I'm not quite sure why there is such uproar about 720's operating in place of 745's on some services. In the future, I am sure there will be known diagrams that the 745/0's operate and I am sure lots will make sure they travel on those services. The people who are not so bothered about traveling on a 720 will probably have a bit more room. But at the end of the day all drivers on the mainline signing the more prevalent traction is operationally advantageous. Because there will be so few 745's on the GE mainline all drivers don't need to sign them.

Never underestimate the passenger. Passenger uproar made national news when 450s were used vice 444s on the Portsmouth mainline for lack of 2+2 seating for journeys of 1h-1h30.
IC was a British Rail brand that the red trains never fell under.

 

[samuelmorris]

Never underestimate the passenger. Passenger uproar made national news when 450s were used vice 444s on the Portsmouth mainline for lack of 2+2 seating for journeys of 1h-1h30.
IC was a British Rail brand that the red trains never fell under.

Red trains?

 

[Dave1987]

Never underestimate the passenger. Passenger uproar made national news when 450s were used vice 444s on the Portsmouth mainline for lack of 2+2 seating for journeys of 1h-1h30.
IC was a British Rail brand that the red trains never fell under.

Sorry, a while ago you insinuated that a 720 regularly subbing for a 745 on the Norwich was "not giving a proper service". Well if that is the case then the poor citizens of Wivenhoe, Cambridge and the like at going to be subjected to a tortuous 1hr plus journey on a 720 in the future. Are you shouting from the rooftops that that is "not giving a proper service"? It all seems to be for you that on one particular route may have a 720 sub for a 745 that is an abomination. Well if they are good enough for the people of Wivenhoe and Cambridge etc for a 1hr+ journey why not the London to Norwich route for a few diagrams a day?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, a while ago you insinuated that a 720 regularly subbing for a 745 on the Norwich was "not giving a proper service". Well if that is the case then the poor citizens of Wivenhoe, Cambridge and the like at going to be subjected to a tortuous 1hr plus journey on a 720 in the future. Are you shouting from the rooftops that that is "not giving a proper service"? It all seems to be for you that on one particular route may have a 720 sub for a 745 that is an abomination. Well if they are good enough for the people of Wivenhoe and Cambridge etc for a 1hr+ journey why not the London to Norwich route for a few diagrams a day?

There were, pre-COVID, already 3+2 seated EMUs doing Norwich services. Though from my point of view 3+2 was the wrong choice, and 2+2 seated units should have been ordered, and then like 350/1s would have worked for most things.

 

[306024]

There were, pre-COVID, already 3+2 seated EMUs doing Norwich services. Though from my point of view 3+2 was the wrong choice, and 2+2 seated units should have been ordered, and then like 350/1s would have worked for most things.

Not in the peak on the GEML it wouldn’t have. Far too few seats. However uncomfortable 2+3 seating is, getting a seat is one of the passengers top priorities in surveys, standing to Chelmsford or Rayleigh isn’t.

All irrelevant now, getting a seat looks to be easy for a while to come.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Oh yes. They are like rockets and unfortunately still on class 90/DVT timings. I have spent as much as 19 minutes just sitting at stations on a standard journey on the GEML. No need for line speed either much of the time.

Of course with few passengers around station dwell times will be much shorter than usual and with still far fewer trains on the network be less congestion and a more clearer runs into stations so this is case for many other routes and operators. Look how punctuality has soared in recent weeks!!

 

[samuelmorris]

The entire bid (not that it's worth the paper it's written on now, even before covid) was built on number of seats into London - the more the better, that's why 2+3 airline seating and tip-up vestibule seats. 2+2 would undeniably provide a better travelling experience but wouldn't produce the numbers needed. The GEML was already pretty much full in the peak hours and even with 12-car trains standing for >40 minutes wasn't uncommon - while standing for short distances maybe preferable over cramped seating, the idea is the line was so busy that 2+2 wouldn't cut it for anything but the premium products (Norwich and StanEx), or the rural areas where there was scope to lengthen the trains. Where most services were already 12-car from London, with no options for frequency improvements and only fairly small gains from removing vestibules, the only solution was to stick with 2+3 seating throughout.

 

[RailWonderer]

Sorry, a while ago you insinuated that a 720 regularly subbing for a 745 on the Norwich was "not giving a proper service". Well if that is the case then the poor citizens of Wivenhoe, Cambridge and the like at going to be subjected to a tortuous 1hr plus journey on a 720 in the future. Are you shouting from the rooftops that that is "not giving a proper service"? It all seems to be for you that on one particular route may have a 720 sub for a 745 that is an abomination. Well if they are good enough for the people of Wivenhoe and Cambridge etc for a 1hr+ journey why not the London to Norwich route for a few diagrams a day?

Wivenhoe passengers can change at Colchester for an IC and Cambridge passengers can take the GN non-stop service to London, get better seats on both and book in advance to not pay over the odds. 720s on the WA for Cambridge are for intermediate stations and budget passengers who buy on the day at Cambridge/London. Last time I checked my rail map, Norwich doesn't have an alternative.

Anyway, I'm steering off topic. I don't want to clutter this thread on 745s.

 

[delticdave]

Oh yes. They are like rockets and unfortunately still on class 90/DVT timings. I have spent as much as 19 minutes just sitting at stations on a standard journey on the GEML. No need for line speed either much of the time.

I've no idea of the weight of a 90 + 8 Mk.3's & a DVT, but the locos continuous power output is 3728 kW on 4 axles, whereas the 745 is rated at 5200 kW on 8 axles. I suspect that the emu has a better power to weight ratio than the loco hauled sets & with double the number of powered axles it's almost certain to to have better acceleration.

I do have a similar situation with my personal transport, a FWD car with 252 ps & an AWD car with 300 ps. They have the same transmissions + the AWD car is lighter, so it's with no wheelspin it's acceleration is noticeably quicker.

 

[delticdave]

Not in the peak on the GEML it wouldn’t have. Far too few seats. However uncomfortable 2+3 seating is, getting a seat is one of the passengers top priorities in surveys, standing to Chelmsford or Rayleigh isn’t.

All irrelevant now, getting a seat looks to be easy for a while to come.

Can't really agree with you, 2+3 seating on commuter trains in North America is acceptable, 'cos the cars are wide enough for decent sized seats. In the UK, 2+2 = all the seats will be taken, but with 2+3 the middle seat is often empty.
Not so true when I started commuting back in '64, but we were somewhat skinnier back then.............

 

[delticdave]

Not passed to work South of Mark's Tey in passenger traffic or in multiple yet.

Any reason why they can't work into London yet?

ISTR that there was a (planned) rescue trial where a 755/3 was sent to London to drag a 745 back Norwich.

 

[dk1]

Any reason why they can't work into London yet?

ISTR that there was a (planned) rescue trial where a 755/3 was sent to London to drag a 745 back Norwich.

Ongoing testing and acceptance trials. No doubt CV19 is partly to blame for the extended delay in some way too. One operated Sunday ECS Norwich to Orient Way via the GEML and Liverpool St.

 

[OvergroundMatt]

Platform modifications are being carried out at Hackney Downs, according to this post on the GA website. Apologies if this has been mentioned before - but presumably means there were clearance issues there after all?

What’s happening about Greater Anglia’s new trains during lockdown?

Greater Anglia is currently replacing every single old train with brand new state-of-the-art trains built especially for us. During the current lockdown, we are continuing with our new trains programme - with testing, platform building work and staff training all taking place, so that more new...

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[LAX54]

Yes, certainly not needed commercially, but politically (as they always have been)? The discussion is more around the theory of a non-Covid timetable. As for three trains per hour to Norwich, could be another part of the bid that falls by the wayside.

There was / is no room for 3 an hour all day anyway from Ipswich, once beynd Diss, the signal spacing can handle 2 an hour easily, but when they shove an ECS or the N. Walsham tanks, it can get very tight !