Class 710 LO

[TRAX]

This might be because of the higher number of motors on these units.

 

[samuelmorris]

We’ll have confirmation soon enough anyway.

One could also wonder why the Desiro UK units weren’t affected by this either (350s on 25 k sounding the same as 450s on 750 V for example).

They're as different as the 710 if not moreso, really.
Example:

at 55s vs

at 31s

 

[Class 466]

This might be because of the higher number of motors on these units.

Only 1 more than a 375, 3 less than a 378!

 

[TRAX]

They're as different as the 710 if not moreso, really.
Example:

at 55s vs

at 31s

Indeed.

 

[theblackwatch]

I have 710267 delivered on 27/09/2018.

I'm trying to keep a log of them
https://partimespotter.wordpress.com/new-trains-info/class-710/

If you notice any I have missed let me know

Thanks but you have this as arriving in *July* whereas this was *September*. It may well have been a unit which was returning after being sent back (as I know one or two have gone back).

 

[Mikey C]

Or 376s sounding much louder and deeper than any other electrostar!

They operate in SE London, they need to sound tougher and more masculine

 

[The_Engineer]

They operate in SE London, they need to sound tougher and more masculine

Butch EMUs. I like it!!! -

 

[BlyRF]

Just to mention, I noticed the timings on Real Train Trains seem to show a lot as 710s even during normal time table times, unless i’m Reading it wrong?

 

[swt_passenger]

Just to mention, I noticed the timings on Real Train Trains seem to show a lot as 710s even during normal time table times, unless i’m Reading it wrong?

“Timed for.” Doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to see a 710.

 

[plcd1]

Just to mention, I noticed the timings on Real Train Trains seem to show a lot as 710s even during normal time table times, unless i’m Reading it wrong?

When TfL / Arriva last rejigged the GOBLIN timetable it was based on 710s being available so no shock that timings show class 710. I haven't checked other LO route timings to see if they also reflect 710 timings. Given the strong preference for relatively slow but reliable timings on LO services I am not expecting to see any great accelerations in run times. The only upside is that the 710s' performance might allow time to be made up if there is a small delay for some reason.

 

[87015]

710 timings on the T&H are accelerated compared to the previous DMU timings. End to end journey times however are constrained by bay platforms at both ends and what little you can do with this.

 

[Railperf]

710 timings on the T&H are accelerated compared to the previous DMU timings. End to end journey times however are constrained by bay platforms at both ends and what little you can do with this.

Which timings have been improved? I'm not sure that you can save more than a few seconds acceleration wise from each station due to the low maximum speeds involved - 30 to 45mph. Maybe a minute or two maximum could be saved in total - but then there will always be pathing time added - awaiting the end bay platforms unless the trains can be turned around quicker.
Actually calculated that around 13 to 15 seconds could potentially be saved on each 45mph station to station section based on recorded Class 345 acceleration to 45mph and a standard leisurely 5%G braking rate. The starts from Barking and Gospel Oak are hampered by slower speeds over single sections of track and the 710's being 4-car will run longer at slower speed before the rear of the train clears the low speed restrictions - so probably minimal improvement to the run times from Gospel Oak to Upper Holloway and Barking to Woodgrange Park.

Add to that the fact that NR timings are always rounded up or down to the nearest half a minute!

 

[hwl]

Which timings have been improved? I'm not sure that you can save more than a few seconds acceleration wise from each station due to the low maximum speeds involved - 30 to 45mph. Maybe a minute or two maximum could be saved in total - but then there will always be pathing time added - awaiting the end bay platforms unless the trains can be turned around quicker.
Actually calculated that around 13 to 15 seconds could potentially be saved on each 45mph station to station section based on recorded Class 345 acceleration to 45mph and a standard leisurely 5%G braking rate. The starts from Barking and Gospel Oak are hampered by slower speeds over single sections of track and the 710's being 4-car will run longer at slower speed before the rear of the train clears the low speed restrictions - so probably minimal improvement to the run times from Gospel Oak to Upper Holloway and Barking to Woodgrange Park.

Add to that the fact that NR timings are always rounded up or down to the nearest half a minute!

Much longer trains with double the number of doors should be good for dwell times compared to over loaded 172s.
A 710 should get to 50mph in about half the time a 172 does.

 

[Railperf]

Acceleration alone is only a fraction of the total journey time. Most of the station stops are 3/4 mile to 1 mile apart. A 345 accelerates to 45mph in around 22 to 23 seconds and around 0.18 miles. Braking at 5%g takes a quarter of a mile. The rest is cruising / coasting at a given speed.

Accelerating to a given speed in half the time does not mean you accelerate to a specific distance in half the time. Yes a 345 / 710 might get to 45mph in 23 seconds, but from rest to half a mile, that superior acceleration only yields around 13 seconds gain over a Class 172 - which for a DMU is no slouch.

 

[samuelmorris]

Using 0-45 in 22s (assuming continuously even acceleration which of course isn't quite true) versus 0-45 in 36s as the best/worst cases with braking at 45-0 in 45s for them both, with the average inter-station distance of 1.084 miles, gives a gain of exactly 7 seconds per stop, so 77 seconds in total across the route. At 45mph line speed, better acceleration versus one of the better DMUs doesn't make much difference. However, less severe overcrowding will probably have a 2+ minute benefit to dwell times along the length of the line at busy times. Plus, 1.3 minutes on a 34 minute route is still almost a 4% improvement, which isn't bad by itself either.

 

[Railperf]

Do the services suffer chronic lateness in the peaks?
I have mainly used these off peak..so usually station stops aren't an issue. And when travelling between Upper Holloway and Gospel Oak..there always is a mandatory wait for the Eastbound service to vacate the bay and clear the line. So unless the service is recast, a quicker journey time will result in a longer wait outside Gospel Oak. Longer trains and more space will be a godsend.

 

[plcd1]

Do the services suffer chronic lateness in the peaks?
I have mainly used these off peak..so usually station stops aren't an issue. And when travelling between Upper Holloway and Gospel Oak..there always is a mandatory wait for the Eastbound service to vacate the bay and clear the line. So unless the service is recast, a quicker journey time will result in a longer wait outside Gospel Oak. Longer trains and more space will be a godsend.

I was looking at some GOBLIN peak hour journey times on RTT recently. In the PM peak the problems start at Blackhorse Rd (BHO) heading east where you get extended dwell times and then it just gets worse at every subsequent stop as people battle to get on and off. Trains are busy from Gospel Oak to South Tottenham but it is the Vic Line interchange at BHO that creates the huge demand flow on the eastern end of the line. I believe 4 car trains will ease this hugely - provided there is not another huge bow wave of suppressed demand unleashed once longer trains actually run. I understand the AM peak is the reverse of the PM - trains repeatedly delayed from Wanstead Park onwards as people struggle to squash inside. Clearly the 710s will help with this. I am a tad sceptical about Blackhorse Rd in the AM peak because you will get huge crowds pouring off a 4 car onto a relatively narrow platform with only a single staircase (and lift) to the overbridge. I can readily see platform crowding posing an issue for how quickly trains can close their doors and depart. TfL / NR *really* should have widened the platforms at BHO while they had the opportunity.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Have these units developed any faults or are all the daily runs to Crewe and back contributing to the 2,000 miles of fault-free running?

 

[HLE]

Has the conversion course for LO drivers been signed off yet? It’s tight to say the least if they want to get the 710’s in service by the end of the year.

 

[theblackwatch]

Has the conversion course for LO drivers been signed off yet? It’s tight to say the least if they want to get the 710’s in service by the end of the year.

November was the last claim. Has it been put back to the end of the year?

 

[slick]

Has the conversion course for LO drivers been signed off yet? It’s tight to say the least if they want to get the 710’s in service by the end of the year.

As far as I’m aware classic drivers yes although the instructors haven’t even so much as been allowed near one yet let alone able to train anybody on them. All of the route accumulation has been done by freight drivers and bombardier technicians.

West Anglia on the other hand although signed off have nobody to conduct the practical training. It’s a royal mess at the moment. ARL have taken the position Chingford DIs are not actually true DIs that have the proper grade qualification. Simply drivers who have been given duties to “mind” new drivers. An internal vacancy has been scrambled for 12 month secondment for Operations Trainer for which their has been a grand total of 0 applicants.

 

[HLE]

Thanks for that, sounds like business as usual down that way too then! Not much chance of the 710’s being in service before Christmas then.

Might as well send 172002 back down south, if it’s still at Tyseley it’s just been sat there for the last few months.

 

[87015]

172002 hasn’t got to Tyseley unless it’s gone up in last few days, it’s been sitting on Ilford since the day it arrived from Willesden.

 

[HLE]

That’s strange....was all over the press that it had gone to Tyseley for assessment?

 

[plcd1]

Looks like another small delay before the trains enter service. Update by Arriva to London Travelwatch Board meeting this morning.

https://twitter.com/LonTravelWatch/status/1054669033600102400

ARL are about to launch the new trains and finalising software & driver training so that the new trains can be introduced as soon as possible. At the moment it is hoped that training will start early Dec with units gradually coming in after.

Also in later linked tweets.

After December? The Class 172s on GOB are allegedly going to West Midlands by or before Christmas. Are ARL hinting there may be a gap?

Stella Rogers, Customer experience director of ARL confirmed to the meeting that there will not be a gap.

EDIT - a clarification from Arriva Rail London at the London Travelwatch meeting.

Stella Rogers from ARL has clarified something she said earlier - driver training will commence in November not December. Capacity will be more than doubled with the new trains.

SECOND EDIT - Another clarification (!) from Arriva Rail London via London Travelwatch. Not sure it actually means anything though!

ARL hv asked us to clarify that they’re working with TfL, Bombardier & lease issues which wld be subject to contractual negotiations & their prog was compressed to intro new units on Barking Gospel Oak line as efficiently as they can, once Bombardier deliver the trains.

 

[samuelmorris]

Presumably then the 172s are not going to the West Midlands on time. I wonder how that's been arranged?

 

[HLE]

By WMT keeping hold of the 153’s and not transferring to EMT in December I would think.

 

[Elshad]

Hi,

I'm a bit confused about the 6 710s on the WLL/NLL. Will these be limited to just one route (e.g. only Richmond or only Clapham) or will they be mixed in randomly with 378s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi,

I'm a bit confused about the 6 710s on the WLL/NLL. Will these be limited to just one route (e.g. only Richmond or only Clapham) or will they be mixed in randomly with 378s?

I think those 6 x 5 car 710s (which are specifically to release 378s that can be used on the ELL) will be able to work to both Richmond and Clapham Jn. There seems no operational reason to keep them to one or other of the two routes.

 

[47421]

On the 172s not going to WMT, remember that one of the changes they planned for Dec 18 was the introduction of a second hourly BirmNS-Shrewsbury stopper, running via Aston and Bescot. That has been delayed along with all the other timetable changes deferred this Dec. That is a minimum of 3 unit diagrams they don't need to cover.