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Class 710 LO

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swt_passenger

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Welcome to the forums,

Four car on DC, GOB, and the LO Liverpool St routes.
There are only 6 x 5 car, they are specifically to release 6 x 387s to the ELL.

The TFL explanation is included earlier in this thread, I’ll try and find it. It’s Post 35 in this thread that includes the quote...
 
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Railperf

Railperf

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Saturday I noted the 710's sitting at Willesden. At this rate there is no chance they will be in service by November on the Gospel Oak Barking route. Isn't this getting embarrassing for Bombardier? Seems crazy that they didn't stick to tried and tested software from the Electrostar units!! At this rate the GA Stadler units will be in service before the 710's.
 
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samuelmorris

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swt_passenger said:
Welcome to the forums,

Four car on DC, GOB, and the LO Liverpool St routes.
There are only 6 x 5 car, they are specifically to release 6 x 387s to the ELL.

The TFL explanation is included earlier in this thread, I’ll try and find it...
Click to expand...
Any reason they aren't making the Watford units 5-car? Interchangeability I assume...
 
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plcd1

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Railperf said:
Saturday I noted the 710's sitting at Willesden. At this rate there is no chance they will be in service by November on the Gospel Oak Barking route. Isn't this getting embarrassing for Bombardier? Seems crazy that they didn't stick to tried and tested software from the Electrostar units!! At this rate the GA Stadler units will be in service before the 710's.
Click to expand...

I think it has gone beyond embarrassing behind the scenes. OK most of the public don't know what's going on but some people who use the GOBLIN must be asking why they are still having to crush inside 2 car diesel trains when all the wires and metal work is there for electric trains. The other problem is the 172s are overstretched and prone to failure which is making the service unreliable which will be causing more upset. None of the reasonably informed comment I've read believes any of the new trains will be in service by November or December (the date has now slipped somewhat in the latest public statements). If we end up with a mess towards the end of the year then the reputational impact on several parties will be considerable and the political fall out for the Mayor will not be good given it comes on top of several other failings / delays.
 
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samuelmorris

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swt_passenger said:
I think the idea is to run 4 tph 4 car, and they believe that is adequate capacity. Interchangeability possibly does figure as well.
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As far as I know, upping to 4tph would require 8 units, not 6? So if they're only using 6 units as before, it'll have to stay 3tph.

With regard to the 172s being overstretched, that may well be so, but they'll still easily outstrip the reliability of the 710s' first year in service. The real problem is and remains the capacity issue of running 2-car services. With the line having been closed for such a long time, though, and still is regularly at weekends I notice, I suspect a lot of people may well have given up on the route. More people would probably do so if they realised 4-car services weren't coming any time soon. It's frustrating to some degree that these sorts of things are kept so quiet, though I can understand the reasoning behind it.
 
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swt_passenger

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greatkingrat said:
There are options in the contract to potentially lengthen them to 5 cars in the future.
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Oh sure, that’s all covered in the earlier TfL info and in discussions at the time. But the answer to the question posed above is that they’ll initially be four car.
 
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swt_passenger

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samuelmorris said:
As far as I know, upping to 4tph would require 8 units, not 6? So if they're only using 6 units as before, it'll have to stay 3tph.
Click to expand...
That was explained in the TfL info quoted earlier in post #35. They start with 6 already on order, add one extra from the 3 x 4 car newly ordered, and transfer the one that was originally planned to run the Romford - Upminster shuttle; the latter being replaced by a retained 315...
 
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samuelmorris

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Ah yes, I remember that being discussed now. As fun as it would be, I'm not convinced about the long-term viability of running a single 315. While the rest of the fleet is still knocking around waiting for Crossrail to open I'm sure it'll work fine, but when there really is only one unit left in the fleet, as soon as something major goes wrong with it, they're in deep trouble. Under that plan, is there any intention to replace it with a 710 in, say, 2021 when all the Crossrail and LO Aventras are up and running?
 
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plcd1

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samuelmorris said:
With regard to the 172s being overstretched, that may well be so, but they'll still easily outstrip the reliability of the 710s' first year in service. The real problem is and remains the capacity issue of running 2-car services. With the line having been closed for such a long time, though, and still is regularly at weekends I notice, I suspect a lot of people may well have given up on the route. More people would probably do so if they realised 4-car services weren't coming any time soon. It's frustrating to some degree that these sorts of things are kept so quiet, though I can understand the reasoning behind it.
Click to expand...

I agree with you that the 710s' reliability is likely to be dreadful for a fair time after they are actually put into service. I suspect the public have little appreciation of what may be headed their way in that respect. Judging by some recent photos peak time overcrowding remains a very serious issue, worsened since the peak extra workings were removed.

I'm local to the line but I haven't used it at all in recent months. On one occasion when it would have been genuinely useful it was closed - apparently there is a backlog of some civil engineering works which were not allowed to be done during the blockade. Yes I know that's bizarre but I suspect the pressure to ensure the wires were strung in the second blockades overrode all potential opportunity works. Hence the recent series of weekend full or part closures.

I'm not sure there would be a mass desertion of the service if people were aware of the delays. I think people can see with their eyes and read in local papers or websites that there are issues. The line user group is very vocal and has several "tame" politicians who regularly ask questions of TfL and the Mayor. Regular commuters know they've lost the extra peak services - perhaps some have gone elsewhere? It's extremely difficult to tell as TfL do not disaggregate the LO usage numbers to route level when they are published in the London Datastore. All we do know is that ridership across the network has plateaued in recent periods after many years of growth.
 
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samuelmorris

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Not so much mass desertion, but people will have got used to an alternative route after the two long-term closures of the line for electrification works. There are bound to be a few who won't want to come back until after the job is finished.
 
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HLE

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Well this sounds like it’s going to delay 2 planned cascades for this winter.

What a joke.
 
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theking

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Driver training starting this month.

First train on gob oct/nov.

Full gob service dec 2018.
 
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greatkingrat

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Where did you hear that from?

These trains haven't yet moved a single inch on the mainline under their own power, the idea they will be driver training in the next two weeks is ridiculous.
 
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HLE

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Interesting. Do LO drivers need a full traction course on the 710’s or is the plan for a conversion course considering they sign other EMU’s? Guessing the latter.

Still probably won’t happen this side of Christmas.
 
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slick

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HLE said:
Interesting. Do LO drivers need a full traction course on the 710’s or is the plan for a conversion course considering they sign other EMU’s? Guessing the latter.

Still probably won’t happen this side of Christmas.
Click to expand...



The thing is driver instructors have to be trained first.

If approval is gained in September, late December/early jan is achievable (at a push)
 
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greatkingrat

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Absolute minimum is 2 months to get enough drivers trained to run a service on the Goblin so would need to start pretty soon if going to be in service by December.
 
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BlyRF

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Ok so here we are in September getting news of driver training starting soon but what’s yet to be confined is whenever the Aventura Stock software has finished its programing or still in development let alone any more trains being delivered to Wilsden deport (considering the Derby works). I can’t help but feel this is gonna be another delay well Into next year February
 
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OvergroundMatt

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hwl

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slick said:
Any idea where they are running it? WCML appears to be blocked and no movements on the GOB atm
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6 runs 5Z50-55 (but with a mangled freight headcode and operator as ZZ on RTT) Willesden - Barking, Barking - Gospel Oak and return twice then Barking - Willesden
 
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