Class 710 LO

[Val3ntine]

But of a curious one really, but does anyone know why non emergency end gangway stock were allowed on the Watford-Euston DC where I believe has single bore tunnels at Kensal Green? But then not allowed say on the ELL?

 

[swt_passenger]

But of a curious one really, but does anyone know why non emergency end gangway stock were allowed on the Watford-Euston DC where I believe has single bore tunnels at Kensal Green? But then not allowed say on the ELL?

I think there’s no “blanket ban“ on single bore tunnels. Each individual tunnel has its own detailed analysis.

 

[bluegoblin7]

It’s possible to evacuate via the side doors at Kensal Green. Front evacuation doors are only required where this is not possible.


photo licenses under CC-by-SA 3.0 - https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kensal_Green_stn_portals.JPG

 

[Val3ntine]

Gotcha. Cheers both

 

[Peter Sarf]

Gosh. I never realised there was a very narrow platform in those tunnels. That scene looks so underground. I mean very round tunnels with 3rd and 4th rails !. They must have been rather extravagant tunnels when they were built ?.

 

[jopsuk]

fairly extravagant, but they were built for mainline trains, not Underground

 

[Kay_M]

Hello all

To those that regularly use the trains on the west anglia route. How have you found these trains to be so far?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Hello all

To those that regularly use the trains on the west anglia route. How have you found these trains to be so far?

Hi - I've used them on the Cheshunt to Liverpool St albeit during these times so I haven't experienced any examples of when the trains are busy.

I find the aesthetics of them uplifting as well as the lighting and heating. Although in Summer it wasn't quite the cooling experience I had hoped for.

The seats are terrible, hard and uncomfortable. I use them for the longest distance on the line and I have back issues so its not great. I just can't understand how they have made them so bad.

 

[spark001uk]

I took one on the goblin from Gospel to barking when they first ran back in late 2019, and I remember I had a dead leg before I got to the end of the journey (which is only about half hour end to end).

 

[Kay_M]

Hi - I've used them on the Cheshunt to Liverpool St albeit during these times so I haven't experienced any examples of when the trains are busy.

I find the aesthetics of them uplifting as well as the lighting and heating. Although in Summer it wasn't quite the cooling experience I had hoped for.

The seats are terrible, hard and uncomfortable. I use them for the longest distance on the line and I have back issues so its not great. I just can't understand how they have made them so bad.

Ah I can imagine. It's similar to the 345s near my neck of the woods. I did wonder why they didn't make the interior of the trains similar to how the metropolitan line is set up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2021 ==

I took one on the goblin from Gospel to barking when they first ran back in late 2019, and I remember I had a dead leg before I got to the end of the journey (which is only about half hour end to end).

Oh wow I think for the Gob-line most of the stations are very close together so it's more of a commuter train as opposed to a long distant one. Thameslink train seats are worse

 

[class717]

I use the line a lot, and what I don't get is why they got rid of the forward facing seats in the spec

 

[spark001uk]

I use the line a lot, and what I don't get is why they got rid of the forward facing seats in the spec

More standing room, their main purpose being heavy inner London commuting.

 

[class717]

More standing room, their main purpose being heavy inner London commuting.

Crossrail will go through the middle of London and the 345s have forward facing seats

 

[DorkingMain]

Crossrail will go through the middle of London and the 345s have forward facing seats

There's potentially some pretty long distance journeys on Crossrail - for example, I imagine there will be quite a significant flow from stations like Stratford to Heathrow Airport

 

[VauxhallandI]

There's potentially some pretty long distance journeys on Crossrail - for example, I imagine there will be quite a significant flow from stations like Stratford to Heathrow Airport

However the speed it goes at and the lack of stations means the journey is almost as long as my Cheshunt to Liverpool St via Seven Sisters (approx 45 mins iirc)

 

[DorkingMain]

However the speed it goes at and the lack of stations means the journey is almost as long as my Cheshunt to Liverpool St via Seven Sisters (approx 45 mins iirc)

Perhaps, but the presumption with Cheshunt to Liverpool St is that you would use one of the fast Greater Anglia services that take 25-30 mins instead of 45.

I admit that doesn't do much for you from Theobalds Grove / Turkey St etc. but I think it's a fair assumption the majority of patronage will be at the southern end on shorter, busier journeys

 

[ijmad]

Crossrail will go through the middle of London and the 345s have forward facing seats

Crossrail will open at 24tph and is designed to go to 28tph or even 32tph, whereas the branch lines out of Liverpool Street and the GOBLIN and DC max out at 4tph in rush hour on a good day. More capacity means it's not designed with quite as bad a crush loading factor as some commuter lines.

 

[Andrew1395]

Gosh. I never realised there was a very narrow platform in those tunnels. That scene looks so underground. I mean very round tunnels with 3rd and 4th rails !. They must have been rather extravagant tunnels when they were built ?.

They were built specifically for a 4th rail electrified railway. They are new line tunnels designed by the LNWR

 

[20atthemagnet]

Crossrail will go through the middle of London and the 345s have forward facing seats

Doesn't matter. We have poor scope for capacity increase in terms of carriages for West Anglia from an infrastructure perspective at the moment. They took the decision to extract maximum capacity on the line for what is feasibly possible now. Would have been no point having mixed seating and later on removing it when passenger numbers start increasing. The current seating layout also has a big impact on dwell times as passengers no longer have to que at doors to file down into the train past transverse seating. The 317s were notoriously bad for this. If there is any hope for service increase in the future this will be pivotal. The trains were also supposed to serve a new 60,000 plus stadium at White Hart Lane, although because of Covid haven't been put up to task on any of the points they were hoping to address. But building them in the way they have makes them pretty much future proof from a capacity standpoint which is always going to be higher on the priority list than passenger comfort. All 710/1s also have future provision for a 5th MS coach to be dropped in as well should the infrastructure allow in the future. Liv to Cheshunt is 39minutes on LO. Most passengers will stick to the mainline to go to Cheshunt, and a fair few will go to Cheshunt and go back on the LO Liverpool St service to get to Theobalds Grove, Turkey St, or Southbury as its invariably its quicker than to do the full stopping from Liverpool Street. Passengers also have the choice of Southbury vs Brimsdown (1mile) Turkey St vs Enfield Lock (800m) and Theobalds Grove vs Waltham Cross (600m) Very few people are going to do that full 39mins unless they insist to which leaves the longest non optional route Liverpool Street - Enfield Town at 32 minutes.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Doesn't matter. We have poor scope for capacity increase in terms of carriages for West Anglia from an infrastructure perspective at the moment. They took the decision to extract maximum capacity on the line for what is feasibly possible now. Would have been no point having mixed seating and later on removing it when passenger numbers start increasing. The current seating layout also has a big impact on dwell times as passengers no longer have to que at doors to file down into the train past transverse seating. The 317s were notoriously bad for this. If there is any hope for service increase in the future this will be pivotal. The trains were also supposed to serve a new 60,000 plus stadium at White Hart Lane, although because of Covid haven't been put up to task on any of the points they were hoping to address. But building them in the way they have makes them pretty much future proof from a capacity standpoint which is always going to be higher on the priority list than passenger comfort. All 710/1s also have future provision for a 5th MS coach to be dropped in as well should the infrastructure allow in the future. Liv to Cheshunt is 39minutes on LO. Most passengers will stick to the mainline to go to Cheshunt, and a fair few will go to Cheshunt and go back on the LO Liverpool St service to get to Theobalds Grove, Turkey St, or Southbury as its invariably its quicker than to do the full stopping from Liverpool Street. Passengers also have the choice of Southbury vs Brimsdown (1mile) Turkey St vs Enfield Lock (800m) and Theobalds Grove vs Waltham Cross (600m) Very few people are going to do that full 39mins unless they insist to which leaves the longest non optional route Liverpool Street - Enfield Town at 32 minutes.

I seem to be that person who does full Theo to Liv St then! It normally takes about 40 mins. Great that there is a possibility of an extra carriage and you are damn right about the dwell times. Often you had people getting on before all had got off and the constant arguments about wanting people to move down a carriage that they will miss their stop trying to get off at if they did etc.

 

[20atthemagnet]

I seem to be that person who does full Theo to Liv St then! It normally takes about 40 mins. Great that there is a possibility of an extra carriage and you are damn right about the dwell times. Often you had people getting on before all had got off and the constant arguments about wanting people to move down a carriage that they will miss their stop trying to get off at if they did etc.

Indeed. The arguments in the morning peaks on the 317s were absolutely shocking. People would naturally gather in doorways for the reasons you describe leaving dozens behind on a platform with plenty of space between the transverse seating. Must have been really frustrating to see a train pull out with all the space in between. 710s are complete opposite in that regard. Seven Sisters is still quite busy, and a well filled platform will empty almost instantaneously.

To those of you eagle eyed will have noticed 710 4car carriage numbers numbered 1,2,3,5 the missing 4 is the theoretical 5th coach.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Indeed. The arguments in the morning peaks on the 317s were absolutely shocking. People would naturally gather in doorways for the reasons you describe leaving dozens behind on a platform with plenty of space between the transverse seating. Must have been really frustrating to see a train pull out with all the space in between. 710s are complete opposite in that regard. Seven Sisters is still quite busy, and a well filled platform will empty almost instantaneously.

To those of you eagle eyed will have noticed 710 4car carriage numbers numbered 1,2,3,5 the missing 4 is the theoretical 5th coach.

I hadn't noticed the numbering. I did notice the other day that there was a one set unit being used where I have only ever seen the two set formation. Is this a Covid thing? As one advantage of the new formations was that they were all going to be two sets you you don't get the short formation shuffle like before when a four cr would turn up even though an 8 car was advertised.

Exiting at SS however might bizarrely get sightly more annoying as there are too many reaching the stairs at once. Need a third staircase

 

[20atthemagnet]

I hadn't noticed the numbering. I did notice the other day that there was a one set unit being used where I have only ever seen the two set formation. Is this a Covid thing? As one advantage of the new formations was that they were all going to be two sets you you don't get the short formation shuffle like before when a four cr would turn up even though an 8 car was advertised.

Exiting at SS however might bizarrely get sightly more annoying as there are too many reaching the stairs at once. Need a third staircase

Saturday service all 8 car for nearly the whole day until advised by Tfl to aid social distancing. Went back to a normal 4 vs 8 in the latter part of December but Covid put an end to that pretty quickly!

 

[Bikeman78]

The current seating layout also has a big impact on dwell times as passengers no longer have to que at doors to file down into the train past transverse seating. The 317s were notoriously bad for this.

The 317s were never intended to run on stoppers to Chingford and Enfield. I take your point about the peak hour overcrowding. The 315s were better in my experience. I think BR got the balance of Metro vs long distance units slightly wrong.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Saturday service all 8 car for nearly the whole day until advised by Tfl to aid social distancing. Went back to a normal 4 vs 8 in the latter part of December but Covid put an end to that pretty quickly!

If they were to add the extra carriage to the sets would there be room to run 2x5 sets on the Seven Sisters line? That would be loads of extra capacity

 

[20atthemagnet]

If they were to add the extra carriage to the sets would there be room to run 2x5 sets on the Seven Sisters line? That would be loads of extra capacity

Unfortunately not. We run SDO at a few locations as even an 8 (4X4) doesnt fit. The system locks out last set of doors at Hackney Downs and the last 2 sets of doors at Stoke Newington depending on direction. 710s are a good few metres longer than the trains they replaced, mainly because of the sloped front.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Unfortunately not. We run SDO at a few locations as even an 8 (4X4) doesnt fit. The system locks out last set of doors at Hackney Downs and the last 2 sets of doors at Stoke Newington depending on direction. 710s are a good few metres longer than the trains they replaced, mainly because of the sloped front.

I’m happy to steam through Stokie and Hackney

 

[Jturner98]

Is 710256 in service yet? And is there any news on when the 5 car version will enter service?

 

[ijmad]

Unfortunately not. We run SDO at a few locations as even an 8 (4X4) doesnt fit. The system locks out last set of doors at Hackney Downs and the last 2 sets of doors at Stoke Newington depending on direction. 710s are a good few metres longer than the trains they replaced, mainly because of the sloped front.

Surely the sloped front is irrelevant for platform length, it's whether the first/last sets of doors are aligned that's important?

Plus if the driver can see signals and mirrors and so on, but they're a lot easier to move than extending platforms.

 

[Domh245]

Surely the sloped front is irrelevant for platform length, it's whether the first/last sets of doors are aligned that's important?

Plus if the driver can see signals and mirrors and so on, but they're a lot easier to move than extending platforms.

It's the extra length of the sloped cabs in the middle that cause the issues. The driving vehicles on a 710 are 21.4m, so there's ~3 extra metres of train in the middle compared to existing stock which means that everything on cars 5-8 is also shifted back 3 metres