Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Domh245]

Is ABDO intended for just door release, rather than automatic opening? That does seem the more sensible way of doing it.

Given the main benefit of ABDO is shortening dwell times, I'd be surprised they didn't go full release and open á la 700s in the Thameslink Core

 

[spark001uk]

Given the main benefit of ABDO is shortening dwell times, I'd be surprised they didn't go full release and open á la 700s in the Thameslink Core

I doubt the time it takes pax to press a button on release is going to alter dwell time, in my experience most of them are hammering away at them almost before it grinds to a halt.! All I can see every door open doing is letting a shedload more heat/cool out.
Also wasn't the TL core auto doors more to do with the fact there (were) so many people to board/alight in such a short time in that section, in the planned 24 tph schedule?

 

[Goldfish62]

I doubt the time it takes pax to press a button on release is going to alter dwell time, in my experience most of them are hammering away at them almost before it grinds to a halt.! All I can see every door open doing is letting a shedload more heat/cool out.
Also wasn't the TL core auto doors more to do with the fact there (were) so many people to board/alight in such a short time in that section, in the planned 24 tph schedule?

London Underground removed door buttons to reduce dwell times and they're the masters of managing dwell times.

I think your second paragraph contradicts the first. You initially seem to be saying that removing door opening from passengers won't reduce dwell time then go on to explain exactly why it can reduce dwell time.

 

[hwl]

London Underground removed door buttons to reduce dwell times and they're the masters of managing dwell times.

I think your second paragraph contradicts the first. You initially seem to be saying that removing door opening from passengers won't reduce dwell time then go on to explain exactly why it can reduce dwell time.

Agreed, dwell time Earlsfield, Clapham Jn and especially Vauxhall is as important as Thameslink core as Vauxhall dwell time is effectively the main limitation on the entire service structure.

 

[spark001uk]

London Underground removed door buttons to reduce dwell times and they're the masters of managing dwell times.

I think your second paragraph contradicts the first. You initially seem to be saying that removing door opening from passengers won't reduce dwell time then go on to explain exactly why it can reduce dwell time.

Perhaps I should have been a little clearer, I agree it could help where boarding a huge number of pax at once in very frequent traffic is critical, but where services (and passenger numbers) are less intense, not so much so.

 

[Domh245]

Perhaps I should have been a little clearer, I agree it could help where boarding a huge number of pax at once in very frequent traffic is critical, but where services (and passenger numbers) are less intense, not so much so.

Which given that ABDO is planned for Surbiton/Richmond - Waterloo is exactly that. The question really is if ABDO will be constantly operational or just during the peaks - if it is constantly operational then I expect that the ABDO will just initiate door release and then the train will either automatically open all doors on release or not dependant on time of day/direction

 

[Val3ntine]

Which given that ABDO is planned for Surbiton/Richmond - Waterloo is exactly that. The question really is if ABDO will be constantly operational or just during the peaks - if it is constantly operational then I expect that the ABDO will just initiate door release and then the train will either automatically open all doors on release or not dependant on time of day/direction

The irony of this is that the system is not connected to the signalling I believe, so if a driver is on a restriction they are not to accept ABDO as the train will not recognise a Red signal to slow down or stop for so will SPAD. Of course during the peaks more trains will mean more restrictive signalling so may even be a case ABDO is used more outside of the peaks.

 

[Domh245]

The irony of this is that the system is not connected to the signalling I believe, so if a driver is on a restriction they are not to accept ABDO as the train will not recognise a Red signal to slow down or stop for so will SPAD. Of course during the peaks more trains will mean more restrictive signalling so may even be a case ABDO is used more outside of the peaks.

That's interesting. I would have thought that ABDO would not 'initiate' until essentially within the same signal block of the platform, particularly if the idea is to hit a (near to!) maximum braking curve. Surely it doesn't matter if the platform's starter is at danger when the train is going to come to a stop short of it

 

[Val3ntine]

That's interesting. I would have thought that ABDO would not 'initiate' until essentially within the same signal block of the platform, particularly if the idea is to hit a (near to!) maximum braking curve. Surely it doesn't matter if the platform's starter is at danger when the train is going to come to a stop short of it

Yeah that makes sense! I don’t think anyone actually knows yet how exactly it would work, I do remember seeing/hearing something about not accepting it on a restriction. But regardless even if it’s a platform starter that is on red, a SPAD would still be down to the driver say during rain/leaf fall.

 

[Pete_uk]

Would it not be easier for the driver to press a button that releases and opens all the doors on one side when the train has stopped?

 

[macaronlover]

.

 

[spark001uk]

+ 1 toilet in the shorter unit is very disappointing

I'll take that, it beats the zero of the 455s/707s (and frequently oou on 458s).

 

[theironroad]

I'll take that, it beats the zero of the 455s/707s (and frequently oou on 458s).

While having toilets is undoubtedly a good thing for passengers, I hope the working of these new toilets isn't a step backwards. While the biodigester system is great for keeping toilets in use, how will the cleansed waste water be disposed of?

If the system is designed to only dispense the water to ballast when stationary and not at places like waterloo, then that would be good.

Dispensing the water while the train is at speed goes back to the days of track workers, s&t etc all being potentially showered . While they will be happy it's not sewage, I'm sure they don't really want to go back to being sprayed either.

 

[supervc-10]

One thing that could help with dwell times, but without letting in unnecessary cold/hot air, is the system on the Manchester MetroLink where the door opening button can be pressed before the train comes to a halt. If ABDO is used like the automatic control on the ThamesLink core, then the doors could open immediately on unlocking by the ABDO system, rather than immediate activation of the buttons.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Would it not be easier for the driver to press a button that releases and opens all the doors on one side when the train has stopped?

No

 

[TRAX]

Meanwhile in some countries train doors are released automatically...

 

[DorkingMain]

Meanwhile in some countries train doors are released automatically...

On trains with air conditioning, opening up the doors at every station for a cold / warm blast of air to come in is not necessarily a good thing.

 

[swt_passenger]

On trains with air conditioning, opening up the doors at every station for a cold / warm blast of air to come in is not necessarily a good thing.

That’s presumably why people thought it wasn’t a good idea on S stock, yet it seems to have turned out they’re fine. and they have far more door area per car length...

 

[spark001uk]

Also I imagine they'll probably have a door timeout like most current stock, so shouldn't be too bad at longer stops.

 

[DennisM]

+ 1 toilet in the shorter unit is very disappointing

Has the number of toilets per unit been confirmed somewhere then?

I think having the doors opening automatically for part of the route and not the rest just adds confusion, most customers are using the service regularly and are all used to pressing a button to open the doors. Also using automatic opening at non ABDO stations would mean should a driver stop short, any doors off the platform would be opening onto the track and seriously increasing the risk of passenger injuries.

 

[fgwrich]

Has the number of toilets per unit been confirmed somewhere then?

I think having the doors opening automatically for part of the route and not the rest just adds confusion, most customers are using the service regularly and are all used to pressing a button to open the doors. Also using automatic opening at non ABDO stations would mean should a driver stop short, any doors off the platform would be opening onto the track and seriously increasing the risk of passenger injuries.

1 Toilet per 5 car and 2 Toilets per 10 car.

 

[TRAX]

On trains with air conditioning, opening up the doors at every station for a cold / warm blast of air to come in is not necessarily a good thing.

I said released, not opened.

 

[hwl]

I think having the doors opening automatically for part of the route and not the rest just adds confusion, most customers are using the service regularly and are all used to pressing a button to open the doors.

Thameslink users adapted quickly enough

Also using automatic opening at non ABDO stations would mean should a driver stop short, any doors off the platform would be opening onto the track and seriously increasing the risk of passenger injuries.

No they wouldn't as ASDO (automatic selective door operation) and CSDE (correct side door enabling) will sort that at all stations. ABDO is additional functionality to this for inner stations.

The 458s were retrofitted with ASDO, 707s came with ASDO. As a comparison the only stock at GTR without ASDO are the 313s 365 and 455s, everything newer has it there, SWT/SWR are a bit behind the curve.

Might I suggest researching ASDO before scaremongering?

 

[spark001uk]

Also using automatic opening at non ABDO stations would mean should a driver stop short, any doors off the platform would be opening onto the track and seriously increasing the risk of passenger injuries.

No it wouldn't, ASDO will prevent that.
I must say I'm somewhat surprised you know about ABDO but not ASDO.

 

[DorkingMain]

That’s presumably why people thought it wasn’t a good idea on S stock, yet it seems to have turned out they’re fine. and they have far more door area per car length...

They also spend a significant amount of their time operating in underground tunnels, which is the same reason it's not a problem on the Thameslink core.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2020 ==

No it wouldn't, ASDO will prevent that.
I must say I'm somewhat surprised you know about ABDO but not ASDO.

The ASDO technology that SWR uses on 444/450/707 will release the same number of doors no matter where the train stops.

 

[spark001uk]

The ASDO technology that SWR uses on 444/450/707 will release the same number of doors no matter where the train stops.

Yes, but we're talking about 701s. The ABDO will have to be happy a correct stop has been made before releasing doors.
Also on any classes where these out of course scenarios don't prevent door release, it is the responsibility of the driver/guard not to release doors until the train is in the correct position.

 

[DorkingMain]

Yes, but we're talking about 701s. The ABDO will have to be happy a correct stop has been made before releasing doors.
Also on any classes where these out of course scenarios don't prevent door release, it is the responsibility of the driver/guard not to release doors until the train is in the correct position.

Right, but that's not ASDO preventing it, that's ABDO preventing it. ASDO is nothing to do with stopping an out of course release, it's meant for short platforms.

 

[hwl]

Right, but that's not ASDO preventing it, that's ABDO preventing it. ASDO is nothing to do with stopping an out of course release, it's meant for short platforms.

It depends what ASDO system you have...
There is ASDO and ASDO!

 

[spark001uk]

OK I think the answer to the basic point that's been raised here is that safety is key, no doors are going to open onto the track, nobody's going to fall out.

What I'm keen to know is, will ABDO rely on information from the ASDO system regarding platforms, or is it totally separate, requiring new beacons to be installed?

 

[hwl]

OK I think the answer to the basic point that's been raised here is that safety is key, no doors are going to open onto the track, nobody's going to fall out.

What I'm keen to know is, will ABDO rely on information from the ASDO system regarding platforms, or is it totally separate, requiring new beacons to be installed?

The aim is for new rolling stock ASDO systems to use ETCS balises (as ABDO would) and ASDO on Thameslink has. The question is where they would try to use the existing Tracklink3 ASDO balises outside the ABDO area or just place some new ETCS balises (no external power) at every platform as needed?