Class 460s - future?

[MidnightFlyer]

I was reading up on the history of the Gatwick Express, and at the start of this century they were running services using brand new Class 460 EMUs. I am now aware that GX runs using the old SWT 442 trains. AFAIK 460s have no owner, so what is going to happen to them? Or, as more of a fantasy thing, what could happen to them? I am aware that they run on the juice rail, but could the y be converted to AC or diesel in order to broaden their futures?

Many thanks

EDIT - when I say 'owner' I mean by way of a TOC

 

[Turbostar]

I'm pretty sure, because they're in the 'Juniper' family of Alstom's units, they have the facility to operate on 25kV ac once adapted, as the same as their sister units the Class 458's.

 

[T163R]

The 460s will go to South West Trains to strengthen SWT 458s to five car formations

 

[hougtimo]

I don't get why the GX would get rid of new trains for older stock?

 

[T163R]

I don't get why the GX would get rid of new trains for older stock?

I don't get why the GX would get rid of the 460s !

 

[87019Chris]

Convert to ac and use them on the manchester airport runs

 

[DjU]

The 460s will go to South West Trains to strengthen SWT 458s to five car formations

That was one possibilities, but nothing has ever been done with regards to that proposal.

In fact I believe the owner of UKmodernEMU gen group has indicated that the 460 do have a future lined up and it not one that seems to have previously been discussed.

 

[87019Chris]

I don't get why the GX would get rid of the 460s !

i didnt understand that either and because of the luggage areas they were well designed for the airport runs

 

[T163R]

That was one possibilities, but nothing has ever been done with regards to that proposal.

Well that's what written in the Ian Allan ABC RAIL GUIDE 2011 book !

 

[MidnightFlyer]

i didnt understand that either and because of the luggage areas they were well designed for the airport runs

To be fair, the 442s have quite good luggage space too. I'll have to check, but they may have more seats as well.

Well that's what written in the Ian Allan ABC RAIL GUIDE 2011 book !

Printed in March, a lot can change in four months

 

[T163R]

Printed in March, a lot can change in four months

I thought it was printed in January...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

You've just argued my own argument for me! I thought it wasn't at the very start of the year, obviously it is!

 

[T163R]

You've just argued my own argument for me! I thought it wasn't at the very start of the year, obviously it is!

Page 3: "Information in Rail Guide 2011 is correct to 11 January 2011

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That is the end of compilation date, not the publishing date, but I'll give it to you anyway.

442s are far nicer trains than Junipers anyway (dare I say the best third rail train ever?).

 

[T163R]

That is the end of compilation date, not the publishing date, but I'll give it to you anyway.

I suppose they didn't add anything after 11 January 2011, otherwise they would've changed the date in the Introduction (p. 3).

442s are far nicer trains than Junipers anyway (dare I say the best third rail train ever?).

460s: ugliest train ever ?

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm pretty sure, because they're in the 'Juniper' family of Alstom's units, they have the facility to operate on 25kV ac once adapted, as the same as their sister units the Class 458's.

460s don't have pantograph wells, but the 458s do. And I have no idea why. So conversion to AC is going to be, err, tricky to say the least!

If they were capable to being AC converted, then send them to fTPE to run Airport - Scotland.

 

[T163R]

i didnt understand that either and because of the luggage areas they were well designed for the airport runs

BTW, are GX 460s going to be replaced ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

460s: ugliest train ever ?

Quite attractive compared to a 220!

BTW, are GX 460s going to be replaced ?

GX 460s have been replaced by the 442s, which work it as we speak. 442s were replaced by 444s on SWT's network, and 460s currently lie unused.

 

[T163R]

Quite attractive compared to a 220!

Are you kidding me ? hock:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Are you kidding me ? hock:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

OK, compare it to a 455!

 

[NXEA!]

Quite attractive compared to a 220!



GX 460s have been replaced by the 442s, which work it as we speak. 442s were replaced by 444s on SWT's network, and 460s currently lie unused.

Actually, the 442's were indirectly replaced by the 458's, because of lower leasing charges on the 458's, or so I have read. And they didn't lose any coaches because there are 24 of the 5 car 442's which is 120 coaches, and there are 30 of the 4 car 458's which is 120 coaches also. The 458's were re-deployed on Reading and Weybridge services which allowed the 450's in use there to move to Portsmouth Harbour workings, which increased capacity. This in turn released the 444's to move to the Weymouth area. So you were correct, I just thought I should clarify why it happened in the first place. In an ideal world, I'd still have the 442's on the better suited long-distance Weymouth runs, the 444's on the Portsmouth line and the 458's working the Reading route and the Alton route, with the 450's increasing capacity and working the couple of 'diesel over the juice' diagrams at present such as the Lymington branch. And further to your comment about the 442's being the best DC EMU, how dare you! Everybody knows it was the Ceps, Cigs and Veps!

 

[T163R]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

OK, compare it to a 455!

175 or 180

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I don't get why the GX would get rid of new trains for older stock?

Because the DfT told them to?

 

[northwichcat]

The 460s will go to South West Trains to strengthen SWT 458s to five car formations

So won't that just result in 3 car 460s to go somewhere else, opposed to where the 460s actually finish up?

 

[NSEFAN]

Perhaps they will end up like the South Eastern 508s. That would be a bit of a waste to say the least...

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps they will end up like the South Eastern 508s. That would be a bit of a waste to say the least...

Even more of a waste. Merseyrail had a look at taking on extra 508s but said the ones available are in a very sorry state and would cost a fortune to keep going. The 460s are only 10 years old.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't get why the GX would get rid of new trains for older stock?

Improved overall passenger capacity on the whole route from Brighton to Victoria. The 8x 8 car fleet was sized exactly for a 4 tph service as far as Gatwick only. To extend to Brighton in the peaks needed more trains all round - and by standardising on 442s rather than the original mixed fleet of 460 and 442 they get a vast improvement in seating capacity too...

The 10 car 442 pairing has nearly 690 seats, approximately double the capacity of a single 8 car 460, which has a very poor capacity of 342. The latter was fine for offpeak airport traffic but a waste of paths for peak services...

 

[Juniper Driver]

Funny thing is I saw 460001 heading towards Victoria (from Clapham) on Monday? I think it was.Was surprised to see it.

 

[swt_passenger]

So won't that just result in 3 car 460s to go somewhere else, opposed to where the 460s actually finish up?

No, because the plan was quite a bit more complex than just shortening the 460s, involving most of the 30 x 4 car 458s as well. Many of the 64 in total ex 460 carriages were to be be completely rebuilt, and inserted into 458s, and some would donate motor bogies or be scrapped. A key part of the plan included new 'Desiro style' gangwayed cabs for the whole combined fleet - and there was also supposed to be a small remaining fleet of maybe 6 x 4 car units presumed to be for the Guildford - Ascot shuttles (and possibly somewhere else). I believe a significant issue was to find or convert 30 intermediate motored carriages to add into the 458s - it isn't straightforward at all because of the 460s motor/trailer ratio...

As noted above though, it has all gone very quiet - and SWT have stonewalled all questions about the possibility of taking on the 460s during their recent webchats.

 

[150222]

sorry this is not really relevent to this thread but would it be at all possible to convert 456's to AC power?