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Class 458 refresh

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Goldfish62

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I see from the SWT "online chat" held last week that a refresh of the Class 458s will start in September.

I believe the seat cushions (standard class only) and flooring will be replaced, but no idea what other changes there may be. I wonder if there will be a repaint.
 
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Goldfish62

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Are the 460s still likely to be transferred to SWT?

The fact that SWT have announced the 458 refresh suggests that the 458/460 merger is definitely off, therefore it seems to me highly likely that SWT won't receive the 460s....
 

swt_passenger

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The fact that SWT have announced the 458 refresh suggests that the 458/460 merger is definitely off, therefore it seems to me highly likely that SWT won't receive the 460s....

We know from the webchat answers that yet again SWT are still treating rolling stock plans as 'DfT Confidential'.

What the 460s have got going for them is this. Because the only possible users are SE and SWT- and it's already been confirmed that the 460s are definitely off lease with SN by December, where else could they possibly be used?

Also, is there the political will to have them all go into storage?

Maybe let's not answer that one... :rolleyes:
 

455/8

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From what I've heard around our depot from managers and chatter is that SWT are getting the 460s and all but 8 458s will be refurbished into 5 car units for use on the windsor side allowing 10 car trains and will these units will also have a desiro style front cab fitted to them, the other 8 units will be kept as 4 cars for the Guildford - Ascot line to free up the 450s already working on that line for use on other lines such as Basingstoke, Alton, Portsmouth & other Main line work where they are better off.

As well as the 460s SWT are in talks to having the 456s as well one of which was sent away to see if it is possible to be used on the SWT network but then again this could all just be gossip/rumors floating around out train crews but its what I've been hearing.
 

Pumbaa

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It looked likely at one point before May 7th this year, but I'm pretty sure its been consigned to the dustbin now.

We'll find out whats definitely happening very soon, but if it involves spending money unnecessarily ie reforming sets and putting new cabs on, forget it. The 460s will go elsewhere but stay as they are.
 

swt_passenger

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Somebody else asked about Shepperton Branch and 455s.

They answered:

In the short term, the Shepperton branch will continue to be served predominantly by Class 455 rolling stock.

The government has asked us to develop proposals for increasing peak capacity on the suburban routes, including the Shepperton route, under its High Level Output Specification (HLOS) programme. The proposals are being considered by the Department for Transport, who have asked us to keep the details confidential for now.

If these plans were to go ahead, there may be some changes to the rolling stock used on the Shepperton branch in order to provide ten-car trains.

So that does hint at 10 car trains and possible changes to the rolling stock - of course that could just be towing a 456 around...
 

Skimble19

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From what I've heard around our depot from managers and chatter is that SWT are getting the 460s and all but 8 458s will be refurbished into 5 car units for use on the windsor side allowing 10 car trains and will these units will also have a desiro style front cab fitted to them, the other 8 units will be kept as 4 cars for the Guildford - Ascot line to free up the 450s already working on that line for use on other lines such as Basingstoke, Alton, Portsmouth & other Main line work where they are better off.

As well as the 460s SWT are in talks to having the 456s as well one of which was sent away to see if it is possible to be used on the SWT network but then again this could all just be gossip/rumors floating around out train crews but its what I've been hearing.
Where exactly are the extra cars going to come from for the 458's to be extended to 5 cars? I can't see them restarting the production line for a few trailer cars.. (I'd doubt it's even still possible for them to do so without massive cost)
 

DjU

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Where exactly are the extra cars going to come from for the 458's to be extended to 5 cars? I can't see them restarting the production line for a few trailer cars.. (I'd doubt it's even still possible for them to do so without massive cost)

The 8x 8-car Class 460

The plan was/is disband the 460 down to 5 car units use the spare carriages to extend a majority of the 458 units. All units would also get new cabs similar to the Desiros - to replace the unfit for purpose gangwayed cabs on the 458s.

The luggage coach would have also need to be converted.

This was one of the various proposals for 10 car running in the recent HLOS plan, it happening is dependent on a) the platforms being extended b) the obvious expense of the alterations. All of which is subject the Government spending review, as such the HLOS is on pause.
 

387star

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Hi I travelled on the South West Trans network and have a number of pointers/questions which I would much rather place here than taking up a new thread...

Why are the lights at Woolston station painted green and white rather like the Lymington Branch? (although the rest of the station is NSE/SWT... in fact most stations between Swanick and Southampton are in a sorry state...)

I saw a 444 at Havant today and was surprised as I noted the set during the morning peak when I thought only 450s run. It also got me thinking... are the 444s diagrammed to run only fast services on the London-Portsmouth via Guildford route?

Some SWT stations have new signage mostly where it was really needed like Hilsea and the entrance to Portsmoutyh Harbour... can anyone confirm will all stations recieve the new signage...?

I was on a FGW 158 today and sorry to say the unit I was travelling on reframed from tip down tables... also the air con wasn't working. I realise FGW did nothing with the Air Con on refurbishment but what is the current system and why does it rarely/if at all ?? work?

I saw several 158s on the Portsmouth line... where do these run to (Sailsbury?) was interesting seeing a 158 call at St Denys to. Rather like the Lymington branch which gives rise to the obvious solution that yes, SWT should take 508s or whatever it can get its hands on as this is predominately third rail. Just electrify between Redbridge and Sailsbury and via Chandlers Ford!
 
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MCR247

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FGW 158s run from Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff Central via Salisbury and Bristol :)
 

MCR247

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They are used on a figure of Six service from Romsey - Salisbury going
Romsey - Chandlers ford - Eastleigh - Airport Pkwy - Southampton Central - Millbrook - Romsey - Salisbury

(Not all stations listed, but it stops at all stations)
 

387star

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No SWT have ex TPE 158s as well and I saw one depart from Portsmouth Harbour to Fareham which seemed odd. I realise they are cleaned etc at Fratton but they work passenger services to and from Portsmouth it would appear...
 

MCR247

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Well during the morning peak, one 159 ends up in Portsmouth, works a stopper to Southampton and then joins to a 158 going to Salisbury (but the 159 is locked OOU) and then is detatched in Salisbury
 

thefab444

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Why are the lights at Woolston station painted green and white rather like the Lymington Branch? (although the rest of the station is NSE/SWT... in fact most stations between Swanick and Southampton are in a sorry state...)

This was answered in the most recent SWT online Meet the Manager webchat. http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/archive.aspx

I saw a 444 at Havant today and was surprised as I noted the set during the morning peak when I thought only 450s run. It also got me thinking... are the 444s diagrammed to run only fast services on the London-Portsmouth via Guildford route?

No, a number of peak services on the Portsmouth line are 444 operated, and most services on Sundays.

Some SWT stations have new signage mostly where it was really needed like Hilsea and the entrance to Portsmoutyh Harbour... can anyone confirm will all stations recieve the new signage...?

No, only some, although I've no idea what the criteria were.
 

starrymarkb

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So why did I see a SWT 158 going from Portsmouth to Fareham?

Traction/Route knowledge. Basically they use a 158 or 159 to keep Fratton crews current on diesels, similarly they do a Southampton to Basingstoke run so that Salisbury crews keep their route knowledge. This means they can divert the West of England service via Southampton if required
 

387star

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Tanks for the info that's a shame though I was expecting a Southern style roll out of signage. Havant, Bedhampton, Fareham, Fratton, Hilsea and Southampton Central have the new signage.. Eastleigh, Botley, Hedge End, Netley, Woolston, Cosham etc are in dire need.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From what I've heard around our depot from managers and chatter is that SWT are getting the 460s and all but 8 458s will be refurbished into 5 car units for use on the windsor side allowing 10 car trains and will these units will also have a desiro style front cab fitted to them, the other 8 units will be kept as 4 cars for the Guildford - Ascot line to free up the 450s already working on that line for use on other lines such as Basingstoke, Alton, Portsmouth & other Main line work where they are better off.

As well as the 460s SWT are in talks to having the 456s as well one of which was sent away to see if it is possible to be used on the SWT network but then again this could all just be gossip/rumors floating around out train crews but its what I've been hearing.

Yet more 450s on the Porstmouth line will not be welcomed... It is a shame the 458s can't be used on the Portsmouth line
 

swt_passenger

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Why are the lights at Woolston station painted green and white rather like the Lymington Branch? (although the rest of the station is NSE/SWT... in fact most stations between Swanick and Southampton are in a sorry state...)

Woolston's colour scheme was done at the request of the local planning authority, specifically to match the new green footbridge, this was done as it impinges on the station building which is listed.

I saw a 444 at Havant today and was surprised as I noted the set during the morning peak when I thought only 450s run. It also got me thinking... are the 444s diagrammed to run only fast services on the London-Portsmouth via Guildford route?

Railway mythology put about by the complaining people of Portsmouth, and their local newspaper. Going by the current diagrams, services to/from Portsmouth in both the peaks and throughout the working day are shared almost equally by 444s and 450s. 444s are also just as likely to be found on the 'via Basingstoke' route. The only day when nearly all the trains are 450s is Saturday, for some reason.

Some SWT stations have new signage mostly where it was really needed like Hilsea and the entrance to Portsmoutyh Harbour... can anyone confirm will all stations recieve the new signage...?

Yes - but only gradually. There have been indications that the 'white on navy blue' for station signs is to be a national policy, it comes form Adonis's time IIRC.

I saw several 158s on the Portsmouth line... where do these run to (Sailsbury?) was interesting seeing a 158 call at St Denys to.

As well as the obvious Salisbury Romsey service run by 158s, over the course of a day you'll see a mixture of 158s and 159s used on various peak only (ie extra to the normal clockface) services such as Portsmouth - Basingstoke, Portsmouth - Fareham, Winchester - Totton (this has to be a DMU because of dwell time in Totton yard). Also various Eastleigh - Portsmouths. A single return service from Southampton to Portsmouth and return uses a 159 in the morning, this was done to release a 450 for another service at that time.

Collectively the DMU services over the third rail are often referred to by SWT as the South Hampshire locals. Some of them are remnants of the old Basingstoke - Brightons - some timetable slots were diverted to/from Portsmouth in the peaks. A visit to Eastleigh very early, or very late will show 158s and 159s on a wide mix of odd short workings, most of which are fully in the third rail area.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yet more 450s on the Porstmouth line will not be welcomed... It is a shame the 458s can't be used on the Portsmouth line

If they did at least it would solve the 'we want white trains not blue trains' complaints. :)

Problem is the internal layout in standard is still 2+3 seating so pax would still complain like mad. :( That is after all the real complaint, not the body colour...

At least the number of webchat questions about the issue was down on last time - one of the longest on Portsmouth 450s appeared to come from serial questioner 'Peter Skuce' of GN fame...

Personally I'd filter out anything on the subject now, it got boring about 2 years ago...
 
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387star

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Thank you for that I appreciate the time you put in to that reply. Yes I noticed that Peter appear many times on the chat!

What is your verdict then regarding 450s?

I would say that personally I think the 444s are fine trains and can't see why passengers see them as inferior to the 442s?

I also like the 450s myself so when I suggested any more 450s wouldn't be liked some guessing work was going on about potential reactions based on what you call 'mythology'

It's good to see 444s still used though- so it really is a case of luck which unit you get and this applys for the poole services to? think weymouth trains are all 444s though...

(There were several mentions on the foum about the 450s, one poster calling them worse than the 455s whilst another didn't want them anywhere near the Reading line!)
 
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MCR247

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I find it quite funny how 450s have 3+2 but 455s have 2+2
 

387star

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Do you know why 3+2 seating wasn't fitted to the 455s when they carry the red inner surburban? livery... perhaps there was not enough space or more space was given to standing?
 

Electrostar

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IIRC the seating arrangement changed during refurbishment as the class operated high density commuter service in and around London.
 

swt_passenger

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The SWT 455 fleet was given a major refurb which removed the previous 2+3 seats and provided a 2+2 high standing capacity interior.

Significantly higher numbers of standees is allowed, calculated as 0.25 sq m per person rather than the normal 0.45 sq m.

It's only a matter of time before one of the London TOCs refits an old unit with 378 style seating, IMHO...

A subfleet of 28 of the 450s have also had high (standing) capacity modifications, much of their seating near the doors was altered to 2+2, and the first class replaced with 2+3 standard seats.
 

Goldfish62

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It's only a matter of time before one of the London TOCs refits an old unit with 378 style seating, IMHO...

I did read somewhere a few years ago that SWT did want to do just this to the 455 fleet, but HMRI did not allow it because the 75mph top speed was above that allowed for transverse seating because of safety implications for collisions.
 

387star

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Thank god for that. It may be suitable for Overground but never for Guildford-London etc
 

Peter Mugridge

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But there are some transverse seating areas in the SWT 455s. Not all tip up seats either - there are some fixed "bench" seating areas like that.
 

swt_passenger

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I did read somewhere a few years ago that SWT did want to do just this to the 455 fleet, but HMRI did not allow it because the 75mph top speed was above that allowed for transverse seating because of safety implications for collisions.

Are the 378s not supposed to have a top speed of 75 mph? I've also recently read that '378 style' internal layouts are on the agenda for the next GE inner suburban stock. Therefore it seems unlikely that 75 mph is now an obstacle.
 
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