Class 458 refresh

[Goldfish62]

Are the 378s not supposed to have a top speed of 75 mph? I've also recently read that '378 style' internal layouts are on the agenda for the next GE inner suburban stock. Therefore it seems unlikely that 75 mph is now an obstacle.

Yes indeed - but may have been an issue at the time.

 

[RobShipway]

From what I've heard around our depot from managers and chatter is that SWT are getting the 460s and all but 8 458s will be refurbished into 5 car units for use on the windsor side allowing 10 car trains and will these units will also have a desiro style front cab fitted to them, the other 8 units will be kept as 4 cars for the Guildford - Ascot line to free up the 450s already working on that line for use on other lines such as Basingstoke, Alton, Portsmouth & other Main line work where they are better off.

As well as the 460s SWT are in talks to having the 456s as well one of which was sent away to see if it is possible to be used on the SWT network but then again this could all just be gossip/rumors floating around out train crews but its what I've been hearing.

So does that mean the class 450's doing the windsor route will be transferred to the Reading route?

 

[387star]

I have a feeling more 450s will move to the Portsmouth line permanently ousting the 444s from this line...

 

[swt_passenger]

I have a feeling more 450s will move to the Portsmouth line permanently ousting the 444s from this line...

Even if the 458/460 merge happens as proposed it only provides a net increase of either 6 or 8 units, depending on whose info you read. (This is because the balance of powered and unpowered vehicles in the 460 fleet doesn't provide for a straightforward mix of vehicles in the combined 5 car units.)

Clearly there has to be some exchange of 450s and 458s between routes depending on which route gets 10 car first. It is also important to note that there is a difference between the 'Windsor route' and the 'Windsor side'. '10 car on the Windsor side' doesn't necessarily mean 10 car trains to Windsor itself - it depends which of the Windsor side routes has its platforms lengthened first, if it happens at all.

On the point you raise on the Portsmouth route, as I say you are only talking about maybe half a dozen released 450s. There are enough 450 operated longish distance services such as Basingstoke - Waterloo that need 8 car trains strengthening to 12 car in the peaks to soak up all those units. Certainly nowhere near enough to turn the Portsmouth route over to all 450s, although again a couple of 8 cars might become 12...

 

[ChampsRacing]

Alot of rumours change from what depot u hear it from. Waterloo the rumour is 458s will have 460 coaches and 455s will couple with 456s and go on the windsors. Staines ive heard the 458s going onto the windsors, 450s on the readings and 460s going on rush hour suburbans with 455s. Either way we need more capacity.

 

[Lampshade]

Surely the 458s are fine where they are now, when I travel to/from Staines there are very few occasions where I haven't got a seat on a 458, yes there are quite a few people standing by Clapham Junction but it's still the same proportion of people that may be standing on a TPE 185 into Manchester.

 

[MCR247]

Surely the 458s are fine where they are now, when I travel to/from Staines there are very few occasions where I haven't got a seat on a 458, yes there are quite a few people standing by Clapham Junction but it's still the same proportion of people that may be standing on a TPE 185 into Manchester.

And was this during rush hour?

 

[Lampshade]

And was this during rush hour?

Morning peak yes, arrived into Waterloo around 8:45.

 

[ChampsRacing]

To be honest it wouldnt suprise me if 458s go onto the windsors. Us guards maybe taking the Readings off the commercial guards soon and they doing some of our windsors and weybridges so they can walk through and check tickets so the guards can just work the 458s from the cab which is the only place they currently can

 

[MCR247]

Morning peak yes, arrived into Waterloo around 8:45.

Well this morning, I was at Waterloo, trying to get the 08:50 to Reading. As it arrived we were just about to go to the platform, and there was a crowd going on for over 5 minutes getting off it. There was a queue of people waiting in line for it to finish. I would say it must have been pretty busy

 

[Aictos]

IF some 458s get a Desiro type front end during this refurbishment, would they not become renumbered to say Class 459?

Indeed the Southern 171s are basically 170s but with Dellner couplings as a example.

 

[jopsuk]

The plan though would be for them all to get it- and the reformed 460s. As there wouldn't be any "old spec" 458s at the end, it's up to the magical elves that make TOPS decisions whether to give them a different sub class number, give them a new class number or do nothing

 

[Goldfish62]

To be honest it wouldnt suprise me if 458s go onto the windsors. Us guards maybe taking the Readings off the commercial guards soon and they doing some of our windsors and weybridges so they can walk through and check tickets so the guards can just work the 458s from the cab which is the only place they currently can

About time too - it's a complete waste of time having commercial guards on the 458s. A few brave guards do do ticket checks, but only have time to check the carriages either side of the middle cabs before they have to rush back to open the doors.

It would be far better if the drivers were allowed to open the doors and then the guards close the doors using the cabs or the local panel near the toilets, which is set up for door closing only, as per Electrostars. Indeed, in the early days of 458 operation, drivers sometimes (extremely unofficially!) opened the doors to allow the guards to do a proper ticket check!

 

[455/8]

It would be far better if the drivers were allowed to open the doors and then the guards close the doors using the cabs or the local panel near the toilets, which is set up for door closing only, as per Electrostars. Indeed, in the early days of 458 operation, drivers sometimes (extremely unofficially!) opened the doors to allow the guards to do a proper ticket check!

The problem with the pannels next to the toilet is you cannot for any reason make a release on that pannel although there are release buttons there (due to opperating difficulties), so what happens if you close the doors but then need to re-open or re-release them for what ever reason such as a push chair stuck in the door way or a dog lead hanging out the door with the owner and the dog on different sides of the door? you can't do it thats why we cannot do it unless you were in say platform 1 at Ascot or platform 6/7 at Guildford.

SWT should make Guards work the 458s and put RPI/RPAs back on certain trains, even if it was just the services opperated by 458s that way the Commercial Guards can be put on to trains that are run by 450/444 & 158/159 stock or at a push 455s at least as a guard (commercial or non) you can walk through the trains and not need to rush back to the cab for the next station, this way SWT would stop ticket evaders and be able to lower ticket prices making the commute to work that bit easier and nicer for the passengers and make the job for us train crews that little bit easier and nicer too.

I know this is in an Idea world but you never know they may catch on one day

 

[The Engineer]

Aren't they 159 on SWT?

SWT have both Class 159's and some 158's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The plan though would be for them all to get it- and the reformed 460s. As there wouldn't be any "old spec" 458s at the end, it's up to the magical elves that make TOPS decisions whether to give them a different sub class number, give them a new class number or do nothing

The official plan is that:

458.001 - 458.008 remain as 4-car units
458.009 - 458.030 become 5-car 458.509 - 458.530
6 new units from Class 460's will be 458.531 - 458.536
(This uses 52 of the 64 class 460 cars)

The 8 Class 460 luggage vans would be scrapped, 2 driving motor cars and 2 intermediate toileted trailers kept as spares.

No Gatwick cabs are kept, all 12 new cabs will be Class 458 types, though ALL CLass 458s would be made mechanically coupling compatible with Class 450s.

In appearance then all vehicles will be in SWT livery but ex-Cl.460 vehicles will PROBABLY retain the ribbon effect glazing and side-skirts and so aid their identification!

Rumour is that if the DfT authorise anything soon, it will be this conversion as it is best value for money...

 

[Matt Taylor]

And just imagine, those scrap 460 vehicles could end up being towed to the scrapyard by the very traction they replaced, 73/2s (Gbrf). It's almost as ridiculous as putting brand new 390s into store due to railway politics.

 

[asylumxl]

And just imagine, those scrap 460 vehicles could end up being towed to the scrapyard by the very traction they replaced, 73/2s (Gbrf). It's almost as ridiculous as putting brand new 390s into store due to railway politics.

I agree. It's absolutely ridiculous. The 460s are well suited for their purpose.

 

[Electrostar]

It reminds me of when I've read about BR scrapping non-standard stock in the 50s or 60s. Am I right in thinking of those early privatised TOC's only Chiltern chose a product, the Turbostar, which attracted further orders and spawned electric variants? I guess the GEC Juniper and Alstom Coradia units were deemed too sub-standard to ever become serious contenders but it all just seems an awful waste of money.

 

[Matt Taylor]

In 1998 HEX ordered class 332s from Siemens which then led to Northern Spirit ordering 333s a year later. Two years later the success of the 332s and 333s led to SWT placing the largest ever rolling stock order (at the time) with Siemens to replace slam doors with Desiros, then came the 360s, 350s, and 185s.

 

[Electrostar]

I didn't realise the 332s and 333s were built by Siemens, I thought they were a Spanish company. I was also thinking of the very early days of privatisation... Ok there's no excuse from me on this one.

 

[asylumxl]

They were built by CAF and Siemens. They're not Desiros. I agree with what you said.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well, well, well... look what I found on You Tube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT-SZ3z48CY&feature=channel

So back in May 2009 they were already testing 10 car rakes on the SWT suburban - which shows how serious the planning for this is.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, well, well... look what I found on You Tube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT-SZ3z48CY&feature=channel

So back in May 2009 they were already testing 10 car rakes on the SWT suburban - which shows how serious the planning for this is.

I think it was already obvious there were plans for 10 car operation, it's been described in increasing detail ever since the SWML RUS, the first RUS published. The CP4 enhancement plan has page after page of info about 10 car platform lengthening in the SW division, just like it has for Central and Southeastern.

The point is that there is hardly any money to pay for it all, or the extra stock, which is why they are fiddling about with 458/460 conversions, and thinking of sticking 2 car 456s without gangways onto the end of 2x455s.

Neither of these are the preferred option, which was for extra Desiro units and extra (fifth) vehicles.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

True, but the date of that test run being May 2009 is long after the 5 car Desiro idea had vanished but some time before the 460 / 458 mixture idea surfaced isn't it?

Plus, the fact that a 10 car test was actually run doesn't seem to have become generally known. There is a bit of an irony in the proposal to move the 456s to SWT because when they were originally ordered the intention was that they wouldbe delivered to the then SW Division of NSE, but that never happened - they went straight to what was then the South London Lines division...

 

[jopsuk]

It reminds me of when I've read about BR scrapping non-standard stock in the 50s or 60s. Am I right in thinking of those early privatised TOC's only Chiltern chose a product, the Turbostar, which attracted further orders and spawned electric variants? I guess the GEC Juniper and Alstom Coradia units were deemed too sub-standard to ever become serious contenders but it all just seems an awful waste of money.

The 168s were a development of the Networker Turbo class 165/166 . They were pretty much going to be ordered by NSE anyway- but privitisation/the 1000 day order drought intervened.

 

[swt_passenger]

True, but the date of that test run being May 2009 is long after the 5 car Desiro idea had vanished but some time before the 460 / 458 mixture idea surfaced isn't it?

I don't think so. The tender for 120 -180 additional vehicles to run in 5 car trains was just newly published in April 2009, and has since been mired in DfT delays, before being put on the back burner by the new government.

The 458/460 mixing (rather than extra Desiro carriages) is just part of a competing proposal to try and win the competition. Obviously (up to) 64 x 460 vehicles and potentially 48 x 456 vehicles doesn't meet the numbers firms were originally invited to tender for.

But the mix and match proposal has never been officially mentioned (SWT stonewall questions about it referring to Dft confidentiality requirements).

It is a repeating story in Modern Railways, so obviously it has a fairly reasonable chance of happening, but just because it has had more publicity doesn't mean the new Desiro stock option was actually withdrawn...