Class 458/5

[fgwrich]

Here is a screenshot from BBC South Todays report (am I aloud to do this?).

The report is at 07:45 onwards.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b03dt20s/?t=7m45s

 

[arty762]

The programme seems to be ever-slipping. Last public advice from SWT was first unit delivered during September (which happened), public service for first pair during November and first pair of existing 458s being sent away before the end of the year.

Why's it all taking so long? It's not as if these are new trains. 3-, 4- and 8-car versions have been running around for years.

As was told to me by an engineer that was involved with the original Juniperss , the first 5 458/5s should be quite straight forward as they are made up from 460's , the fun will start when the first 458's go away to have a 460 coach blended into them , the software has had to be rewritten and there are many differences between the 460 and 458 to overcome.

 

[swt_passenger]

As was told to me by an engineer that was involved with the original Juniperss , the first 5 458/5s should be quite straight forward as they are made up from 460's...

I suggest that'll possibly be cancelled out by the fact that all the six ex GatEx units currently being done are having more significant structural alterations to the cabs.

However I have been thinking that the first four ex 460 units are going to be done on faster timescales to numbers 5 and 6 anyway, because they include the four allocated driving vehicles that were formerly luggage vans. They are having major structural alterations to provide the second sets of doors and most of their windows.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I posted a while back, while we were debating seats having arms or not, that it was quite possible that there'd be a mixture of 2+2 seating types - some with and some without.

Paul Bigland has now put some decent interior pictures online that show exactly that, both types of seats in the same unit.

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p368327642/h9ebf4cb#h1c05e5c1

http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p368327642/h9ebf4cb#h148fd1ca

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Here is a screenshot from BBC South Todays report (am I aloud to do this?).

The report is at 07:45 onwards.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b03dt20s/?t=7m45s

Full height grab rails at every seat? That's going to be a bit head and shoulder bashy isn't it?!

 

[swt_passenger]

Full height grab rails at every seat? That's going to be a bit head and shoulder bashy isn't it?!

It's probably considered necessary because the design assumes maximum standees. They did the same in the 455s, and the 450/5s also have those rails.

No-one seems to worry about vertical poles all over tube trains...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On the 455s and 450/0s, however, they haven't done them at every airline seat have they? The image a few posts above looks like every single seat has one.

 

[swt_passenger]

On the 455s and 450/0s, however, they haven't done them at every airline seat have they? The image a few posts above looks like every single seat has one.

It's a very 'foreshortened' view, so I'll reserve judgement. I don't think it looks so bad in Paul Bigland's shots, which are not trying to cover a whole coach length.

Was anyone else expecting those reasonably large tables by the way? They could do with a few of those in the 450s...

 

[TW7]

I'm a little confused by the "extra 20,000 seats" statement....

Currently the 458's have 3+2 seating, the 458/5 has 2+2 seating. I appreciate that there is an extra coach on every unit, however surely this would actually result in there being the same, if not less seats????

It looks very much like another stop-gap measure like the 450HC where you remove seats so that you can stuff extra passengers who have to stand....

 

[TEW]

Was anyone else expecting those reasonably large tables by the way? They could do with a few of those in the 450s...

Looks like the tables are just in the section between the cab and the first set of doors, so where the First Class area currently is on the 458/0s.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm a little confused by the "extra 20,000 seats" statement....

Currently the 458's have 3+2 seating, the 458/5 has 2+2 seating. I appreciate that there is an extra coach on every unit, however surely this would actually result in there being the same, if not less seats????

He's talking through his hat, by quite a huge factor, if applied to actual physical seats. As you suggest the 458/5 does apparently have very slightly less seats than a 458, (according to figures in wnxx) but there will be 36 of them replacing 30, so that is a slight increase in total seats for that class. The 456s also provide about 2400 individual seats.

However, as often the case, the way of getting these sort of vast increases for the purposes of PR spin is to start adding up multiple individual journeys across the whole day. As all the trains go in and out of Waterloo quite a few times, you can start generating big numbers - especially if you count both directions. This is typical of many TOC's PR to be fair, SWT are no different.

However in SWT's original PR about the 458/5s they didn't mention seats, but additional capacity, and when they later described the 456 cascade they used a figure of 2400 seats 'each day'. Inconsistency or what...

 

[jopsuk]

To be fair on the TOCs, talk of "seats per day" or "seats per day during rush hour" (the latter usually just count those in the peak-directon) is of more use to commuters.

 

[Eagle]

Indeed. 20,000 would be something not unlike the number of people who no longer have to stand. Although given that most people tend to come back the way they came, it might be closer to 10,000. Still a lot of people.

 

[swt_passenger]

To be fair on the TOCs, talk of "seats per day" or "seats per day during rush hour" (the latter usually just count those in the peak-directon) is of more use to commuters.

Agree. It would be helpful if someone who claims to be a BBC transport correspondent made it a bit clearer in his spiel as well though...

 

[Goldfish62]

Looks like the tables are just in the section between the cab and the first set of doors, so where the First Class area currently is on the 458/0s.

Yes, it's odd that an inner-suburban unit should have armrests and full tables.

I also see that the hinged cab access door has been retained. I assume that when units are coupled together this will be locked in the open position as I don't believe that units of this age are allowed to have manual passenger doors. Unless of course SWT have now decided that the gangways will be for crew access only, which goes against what they've said previously.

 

[MCR247]

Yes, it's odd that an inner-suburban unit should have armrests and full tables.

For easy conversion to first class maybe?

 

[jopsuk]

More and more it is clear that whilst at first they're going to be operating inner suburban without 1st class, the plan really is to swiftly acquire an all-new inner suburban fleet and move these units onto outer suburban duties. The sections with armrests become 1st class, and they're already in outer suburban blue...

 

[swt_passenger]

For easy conversion to first class maybe?

That possibility did occur to me as well. Other posters have previously suggested the class might end up back on the Reading route eventually, if and when it gets lengthened for 10 cars as proposed in the CP5 plans.

 

[Goldfish62]

More and more it is clear that whilst at first they're going to be operating inner suburban without 1st class, the plan really is to swiftly acquire an all-new inner suburban fleet and move these units onto outer suburban duties. The sections with armrests become 1st class, and they're already in outer suburban blue...

Yes, although the as-delivered 1st Class sections were pretty basic on the 458s and as a result of complaints got completely upgraded. Simply retrimming the seats in the 458/5s would result in an even more basic 1st Class than the basic 1st Class that was ripped out!

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the 1st Class sections in the existing 458s, eg. whether the seats, reading lights and plug sockets remain.

 

[WillPS]

Yes, although the as-delivered 1st Class sections were pretty basic on the 458s and as a result of complaints got completely upgraded. Simply retrimming the seats in the 458/5s would result in an even more basic 1st Class than the basic 1st Class that was ripped out!

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the 1st Class sections in the existing 458s, eg. whether the seats, reading lights and plug sockets remain.

I'd be surprised if it was given this is a rebuild project...

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes, it's odd that an inner-suburban unit should have armrests and full tables.

I also see that the hinged cab access door has been retained. I assume that when units are coupled together this will be locked in the open position as I don't believe that units of this age are allowed to have manual passenger doors. Unless of course SWT have now decided that the gangways will be for crew access only, which goes against what they've said previously.

The doors have been altered; new hinges, handle and release mechanism to make them PRM-TSI compliant. They will be used as intended to allow through access between the units. There was a certain sceptism at the Park as to what exactly had been done... But that's what supposed to have been done nonetheless.

 

[Monty]

What I have heard is that it's a pretty tight fit in the inter-unit gangway and is not the most ideal of setups.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think anyone has mentioned SWT's latest PR piece on the 458/5s and 456s, which includes:

A total of 108 additional carriages will create capacity for an extra 23,000 peak-time travellers every day when all are in service. The carriages, which have been secured as part of the Government’s High Level Output Specification Programme (HLOS), will see a number of the busiest trains extended to run with 10-carriages and extra services introduced on some routes. As part of the HLOS scheme, Platform 20 in the former Waterloo International terminal will also come back into full use from May 2014. However, as part of plans to improve the service provided to customers during disruption, the South West Trains-Network Rail Alliance has confirmed this week that Platform 20 can now be used to relieve congestion at the station during times of disruption.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/extra train carriages.aspx

I see they describe that extra capacity (discussed on the previous page) in yet another different way. "Seats not included..."

 

[Goldfish62]

The doors have been altered; new hinges, handle and release mechanism to make them PRM-TSI compliant. They will be used as intended to allow through access between the units. There was a certain sceptism at the Park as to what exactly had been done... But that's what supposed to have been done nonetheless.

I wonder if they'll be locked open when units are joined together. If not then I doubt most people will realise they can walk through. Then we'll end up with what a few guards do on 450s - disable the doors and use the full width of the cab as their own private lounge...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see in the latest RAIL that SWT are saying that they expect the first pair in service before the end of November.

It's also mentioned that the platform extensions have been running late and Richmond has only just been completed.

Strangely, Richmond has what appears to be a permanent metal barrier blocking off the extension the up platform. Barnes and Queenstown Road still have their extensions hoarded off.

 

[Monty]

January if you are lucky , crew training hasn't started in earnest yet and there are still some issues that need to be rectified. The Guards panel layout in the PTSO has raised a few eyebrows too.

 

[SprinterMan]

January if you are lucky , crew training hasn't started in earnest yet and there are still some issues that need to be rectified. The Guards panel layout in the PTSO has raised a few eyebrows too.

I didn't think the ex-460 units had a PTSO :P

 

[Monty]

I didn't think the ex-460 units had a PTSO :P

It's where the acessable toilet is located and for the purposes of this conversation we shall refer to it as the PTSO since that's whats it's designated on the 458/0s for the time being.

 

[jopsuk]

Fair enough! Taking the 379s as a model, maybe the designation should TOSL(W) (the 379s have an unwieldy PTOSL(W))?

 

[Goldfish62]

January if you are lucky , crew training hasn't started in earnest yet and there are still some issues that need to be rectified. The Guards panel layout in the PTSO has raised a few eyebrows too.

January in which year?:roll:

Honestly, you'd have thought that detail stuff like this could have been dealt with through visits from SWT engineers during the seven extra months the first two units spent at Doncaster...

 

[SprinterMan]

It's where the acessable toilet is located and for the purposes of this conversation we shall refer to it as the PTSO since that's whats it's designated on the 458/0s for the time being.

Oh right, thanks for clarifying that

Adam

 

[WarrenTManager]

January in which year?:roll:

Honestly, you'd have thought that detail stuff like this could have been dealt with through visits from SWT engineers during the seven extra months the first two units spent at Doncaster...

Engineers are not Guards or Drivers. Engineers might be happy with a solution for it then take a million years to get through company councils or accepted by unions.