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Class 455 with AC Motors

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D365

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Perhaps you can explain to me why it took me 15 minutes to go from Ewell to Epsom with a 4 car after a light shower, because the unit couldn't get any grip.

Sadly I can't as I don't work for Vossloh, but as far as I can tell there doesn't seem to be confidence in retractioned EMUs across the board. As evidenced by the state of 317722 and the Class 321 Renatus units, and the fact that the Class 319s haven't been touched.

One wonders if 'retractioning' the Class 442s is actually a wise idea.
 
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CosherB

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Sadly I can't as I don't work for Vossloh, but as far as I can tell there doesn't seem to be confidence in retractioned EMUs across the board. As evidenced by the state of 317722 and the Class 321 Renatus units, and the fact that the Class 319s haven't been touched.

One wonders if 'retractioning' the Class 442s is actually a wise idea.

Of course it isn't! :shock:
 

HarleyDavidson

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Of course it isn't! :shock:

Ultimately it'll depend on what they put underneath, if they put Vossloh or Alsthom underneath, IMHO it'll be a complete disaster.

Put Siemens stuff underneath and I think it'll be pretty much spot on. From experience, I've found that Siemens stuff smashes the other stuff not just out of the proverbial ball park, but into high earth orbit by comparison when it comes to reliability.
 

samuelmorris

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(Devil's advocate) - and yet, before they were messed with, pretty sure the 458s outperformed every Siemens unit on the network for reliability, yet the 700 introduction is still marred by poor reliability a year after introduction into service.

In principle you may be right, but the above anecdote does suggest that reliability is as much about implementation than the quality of the delivered hardware.
 

HarleyDavidson

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(Devil's advocate) - and yet, before they were messed with, pretty sure the 458s outperformed every Siemens unit on the network for reliability, yet the 700 introduction is still marred by poor reliability a year after introduction into service.

In principle you may be right, but the above anecdote does suggest that reliability is as much about implementation than the quality of the delivered hardware.

I'll give you that, when the 444/450s first arrived they were diabolical, despite Siemens saying that they'll work perfectly "out of the box", but a lot of hard work behind the scenes has gone on to get them right and I can't think of a time when I've needed assistance with a Siemens unit.

However the 458s were worse as many know they were 4-JOP and they became known as 4 Jump Out & Push. I've not touched one for going on 3 years or so now and it's unlikely I'll ever drive them again.

The reason that 455s have done so well is because they were a basic unit with no fancy technology on them, basic 3 step braking (4 step now with enhanced emergency) and camshaft control which allowed you to hand notch them away in trying conditions. The new traction system will soon resort in my taking a trip to the chiropractor for a back or a trip to A&E for the times that they lurch forward as you come to a stand and nearly put you into the desk or windscreen.

I can't wait to see what the replacement will be like. It most certainly can't get any worse.
 

43096

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(Devil's advocate) - and yet, before they were messed with, pretty sure the 458s outperformed every Siemens unit on the network for reliability, yet the 700 introduction is still marred by poor reliability a year after introduction into service.

In principle you may be right, but the above anecdote does suggest that reliability is as much about implementation than the quality of the delivered hardware.

Yes, the 458s before rebuild were the most reliable trains in the country, after a lot of hard work from Wimbledon depot and Porterbrook. Then Alstom got them again and they went back to square one...

SWT engineers rate the Alstom Onix traction system as superior to the Siemens version. The issues with the 458s were about support from the builder, or lack of. This is/was a common Alstom failing - see also the VP185 engine for further evidence.

Personally, I prefer the 458s to the 450s: although build quality isn't as good as the Siemens kit, they are more comfortable, make better use of space (so before conversion a 458/0 had more seats than a 450) and the aircon works better. The Desiro does have toilets that work more often, though.
 

hwl

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Personally, I prefer the 458s to the 450s: although build quality isn't as good as the Siemens kit, they are more comfortable, make better use of space (so before conversion a 458/0 had more seats than a 450) and the aircon works better. The Desiro does have toilets that work more often, though.

One of the reason they were probably dumped was the seats not being closely packed enough and not enough hand rails....
 

HarleyDavidson

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SWT engineers rate the Alstom Onix traction system as superior to the Siemens version. The issues with the 458s were about support from the builder, or lack of. This is/was a common Alstom failing - see also the VP185 engine for further evidence.

Try getting a 458 to climb Bagshot or Camberley banks on a damp day or in the autumn and you might change your mind.

I had one start OK, but after about ½ mile got stuck and then start sliding backwards with the brakes on and when I tried to restart after sanding, it still went backwards (with the MS in forward I hasten to add) and it did eventually make Bagshot & Ascot, just ¾ hour late. I can't fault the brakes on them.

The Siemens traction system in the autumn is IMO vastly superior to the ONIX system which in autumnal/poor/low adhesion conditions really struggles to get going, unless of course they've reprogrammed them.
 
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Class455

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Have not been on the South West Main Line for a while now. Have any more 455/8's been seen with Vossloh Motors yet?
 

HarleyDavidson

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49 & 73 have still got DC motors, it seems the majority have been done. Now they just need to get the braking changeover sorted out.
 

Y186520

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2 coaches of a 455 were outside the Vossloh shed yesterday at 1250 with
the works shunter attached.

I could only see 1 coach number 71689 which ABRail says is in 455853.
 

Bornin1980s

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The reason that 455s have done so well is because they were a basic unit with no fancy technology on them, basic 3 step braking (4 step now with enhanced emergency) and camshaft control which allowed you to hand notch them away in trying conditions. The new traction system will soon resort in my taking a trip to the chiropractor for a back or a trip to A&E for the times that they lurch forward as you come to a stand and nearly put you into the desk or windscreen.

I can't wait to see what the replacement will be like. It most certainly can't get any worse.

What's hand notching? Can it only be done with camshaft based control systems?
 

Peter Mugridge

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A little bit worse than that even, the RAIB attended. I do not know the full story, and I am not suggesting the Vossloh traction equipment was to blame, but it was involved. I expect we will hear more from the RAIB in time.

https://twitter.com/raibgovuk/status/883349423006396416

Ah, that's news to me. I notice they say "severe electrical fault" so I guess I can rule out an instance of the brakes bleeding off - unless they're electrically controlled?
 

Peter Mugridge

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It looked like the pway gang were examining a pot?

On the adjacent track though. If a pot had gone bang, would they really have taken a train that's on another trackl out of service? Or is the train in the picture a different one and the affected one has already been removed?

I note the far unit in the picture is a 455/9 so the right series - the vents on the roof are a giveaway.
 

Bigfoot

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On the adjacent track though. If a pot had gone bang, would they really have taken a train that's on another trackl out of service? Or is the train in the picture a different one and the affected one has already been removed?

I note the far unit in the picture is a 455/9 so the right series - the vents on the roof are a giveaway.

Whatever exploded in the traction equipment blew the access panel off in to the four foot of platform 4. Something also ended up on platform 8!
 
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Platform two to platform eight is about 42 metres. The North Koreans will be approaching. Vossloh to improve their missile range......

Seeing as a 334 had a NIR for gas build up on IGBT I wonder if it might be similar. We'll wait for the report before playing speculation bingo too much
 
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