Class 43 (HST) trains post 2020.

[starrymarkb]

So are you basically suggesting that the 'Virgin' 221s will have to stay on the WCML because they can tilt? That wasn't Virgin's intention in their WCML franchise proposals - they were explicitly going to replace the Voyagers...

With another batch of Tilting EMUs (probably Pendolinos)

222s don't tilt so would be speed restricted on the WCML

 

[swt_passenger]

With another batch of Tilting EMUs (probably Pendolinos)

222s don't tilt so would be speed restricted on the WCML

Sure, but I was really just pointing out that there was already a proposal to remove the 221s from the route - without even considering the use of other DMUs.

 

[Train wasp]

If and when HST sets are removed from service I wonder if any sets will be exported.

 

[Yew]

If and when HST sets are removed from service I wonder if any sets will be exported.

I wouldnt imagine so. but then again they sent the 141's to iran..


I suppose that Australia could be interested in some extra power cars for their sets?

 

[thenorthern]

So are you basically suggesting that the 'Virgin' 221s will have to stay on the WCML because they can tilt? That wasn't Virgin's intention in their WCML franchise proposals - they were explicitly going to replace the Voyagers...

I didn't say they would have to I just said it was a good idea because they were the only line they were permitted to tilt on.

 

[cjmillsnun]

So are you basically suggesting that the 'Virgin' 221s will have to stay on the WCML because they can tilt? That wasn't Virgin's intention in their WCML franchise proposals - they were explicitly going to replace the Voyagers...

I think it was being stated that to replace them with 222s wouldn't happen. I would agree. i would think they will be replaced with an EMU (probably a pendo of some kind)

 

[blackhill]

Pretty hopeless if they can't be diagrammed to go to Glasgow Queen Street though.

The six car sets that head to Aberdeen/Inverness are already full to capacity when they leave Glasgow - so little point in extending platforms into the concourse to accommodate 8 car trains then use heritage 6+2 sets with little more seating.

Maybe a few sets for operation as tourist friendly "pullmans" on the Edinburgh-Stirling-Inverness route would work.

And a refurbished set to operate as the (Independent) Scottish State Train - powered by Scotland's Oil...

HST's ran in to Queen St until early 90s and some London Hst services stared there too! The Scottish Government thinks 170's are not fit for purpose on long distance travel ie: Glasgow to Inverness/Aberdeen.

 

[The Planner]

I didn't say they would have to I just said it was a good idea because they were the only line they were permitted to tilt on.

There were TASS balises between Banbury and Oxford but we have ripped them out now.

 

[Class 170101]

There were TASS balises between Banbury and Oxford but we have ripped them out now.

What a waste of money.

 

[thenorthern]

What a waste of money.

A big one although it wasn't worth CrossCountry keeping it simply for that and some of the Birmingham to Manchester sections.

 

[Bodie]

The Scottish Government thinks 170's are not fit for purpose on long distance travel ie: Glasgow to Inverness/Aberdeen.

By God! I've found something I agree with the Scottish Government on!

HST's up here working Inverness/Aberdeen - Glasgow/Edinburgh would be great.

Any journey of more then three hours should not be a DMU.

Bit pie in the sky, but any hope a HST could work summer tourist specials on any of the North or West Highland lines (Kyle, Wick, Fort William)??????
Is it just impossible with the tight curves?
Always wanted to know.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I can see them becoming a staple for railtours. Fast enough to achieve line speed everywhere, and relatively easy to retrofit stuff like ERTMS in for when places finally go to level 3.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a few running well past the middle of the century, although obviously as heritage traction.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Another possibility - don't know if it would be viable - would be for use for mail trains possibly, just like what SNCF done with some of their old TGVs

 

[starrymarkb]

The LaPost TGVs were purpose built as a tag on to the main SNCF order for PSE sets rather then conversions of old sets. AFAIK SNCF haven't retired any TGVs yet.

 

[sprinterguy]

HST's ran in to Queen St until early 90s and some London Hst services stared there too!

Yes, but it was quite a tight squeeze to the extent that a 2+8 HST formation could only use one of the platforms at Queen Street, and even then may have encroached on the access to the adjacent platform line (See the attached photo). And route: oxfords' point still stands that why bother going to the effort and expense of extending the platforms at Queen Street to accept 8-car trains if you are still going to be limited to 6 carriage formations, as the power cars on an HST essentially take up the space of two carriages?

 

[Western Lord]

Was the Inter-City 125 really the first train outside of Japan to achieve 125 mph on regular service?

Certainly not! SNCF was running 200km/h services on classic lines in the sixties.

 

[al.currie93]

HST's ran in to Queen St until early 90s and some London Hst services stared there too! The Scottish Government thinks 170's are not fit for purpose on long distance travel ie: Glasgow to Inverness/Aberdeen.

Yes! I was on an Aberdeen to Edinburgh class 170 for the full 2 1/2 hours yesterday, and the HST that took me to Inverness the previous day was in a whole other league! 170s are really not intercity express trains, and shortened 5 or 6 coach plus 2 locomotive HSTs would be far better in my opinion for such routes.

 

[ModernRailways]

What are the chances of HSTs operating with one power car and a MK3 coach being converted into a driving van trailer? A bit like Network Rails 31 and DBSO.

 

[starrymarkb]

BR considered it for cross country then there was a big crash involving DBSO and the idea was dropped

Thing is a 170 is probably fine for the Scottish routes, and if the ScoGov thinks 170s are below them they'll hate having English Cast offs!

 

[cf111]

BR considered it for cross country then there was a big crash involving DBSO and the idea was dropped

Thing is a 170 is probably fine for the Scottish routes, and if the ScoGov thinks 170s are below them they'll hate having English Cast offs!

I think the 222s or the like would be better suited to routes like Inverness-Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen-Glasgow/Edinburgh. I understand it'd be a bit of a waste of a 125 MPH capable unit though.

The mid-carriage doors in the 170s can make the saloon very cold when they open at Pitlochry in the middle of January. That said I realise why the 170s were procured and my knowledge doesn't stretch far enough to suggest what might have been ordered in their stead at the time. Three carriages can also be a nightmare when things are busy and with no corridor between units, one half is often left without a catering trolley.

I quite like the 170s, my problem is really I don't think they're suited to long-distance routes of more than three hours.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The LaPost TGVs were purpose built as a tag on to the main SNCF order for PSE sets rather then conversions of old sets. AFAIK SNCF haven't retired any TGVs yet.

They're just beginning to retire the PSE sets.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=441736

 

[starrymarkb]

So the oldest TGVs are only a couple of years younger then the HSTs. Though reading it looks like these are the former Lyria sets that didn't get the speed upgrade in the 1990s.

Still 36 years is a good innings!

 

[Yew]

Yes, but it was quite a tight squeeze to the extent that a 2+8 HST formation could only use one of the platforms at Queen Street, and even then may have encroached on the access to the adjacent platform line (See the attached photo). And route: oxfords' point still stands that why bother going to the effort and expense of extending the platforms at Queen Street to accept 8-car trains if you are still going to be limited to 6 carriage formations, as the power cars on an HST essentially take up the space of two carriages?

Both power cars dont have to be on the platform. And dont forget a power car is shorter than a MK3, with luggage space

 

[sng7]

Both power cars dont have to be on the platform. And dont forget a power car is shorter than a MK3, with luggage space

Unfortunately the way queen street is layed out you have the buffer stop and one end and once you go of the other end of the platform you would probably be fouling at least some of the points so in this case you have to be

 

[RichmondCommu]

Certainly not! SNCF was running 200km/h services on classic lines in the sixties.

Using which rolling stock? I didn't think the SNCF had anything capable of running at 200km/h until the Corail stock was introduced in the mid to late 1970's.

 

[sprinterguy]

Unfortunately the way queen street is layed out you have the buffer stop and one end and once you go of the other end of the platform you would probably be fouling at least some of the points so in this case you have to be

In addition, at a terminus in particular you have the positions of the signals, typically at the platform end, to consider.

 

[Western Lord]

Using which rolling stock? I didn't think the SNCF had anything capable of running at 200km/h until the Corail stock was introduced in the mid to late 1970's.

SNCF introduced Europe's first 200km/h service in 1967, Le Capitole, from Paris Austerlitz to Toulouse. The train comprised modified BB9200 locos and specially prepared UIC Y type coaches. These were replaced in 1970 by CC6500 locos and new Grand Confort coaches and 200km/h running was extended to other trains out of Austerlitz to Bourdeaux as well as Toulouse.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I think they are targeting business traffic which doesn't tend to travel with hold baggage. Certainly with hand baggage only you can be on the DLR within 10 mins of engine shutdown

All sounds sensible, but I wonder if some businesspeople will still prefer the train, given that they can work solidly for something over two hours (in this case) while the train travels, whereas the restrictions on electronic devices on an aircraft - even once you have done the airport palaver and boarded - limit the useful working time significantly.

 

[SansPareil]

Does anybody remember when Virgin XC operated short formed HSTs in place of 158s due to unavailability? Would have been the late 90s, think they might have been as short as two coaches. I'd love to see the HSTs refurbished and retained in shorter formations to boost service frequencies and open up new through routes, sadly with the rail industry structured as it is, and interest rates so low, it's highly unlikely.

 

[al.currie93]

Does anybody remember when Virgin XC operated short formed HSTs in place of 158s due to unavailability? Would have been the late 90s, think they might have been as short as two coaches. I'd love to see the HSTs refurbished and retained in shorter formations to boost service frequencies and open up new through routes, sadly with the rail industry structured as it is, and interest rates so low, it's highly unlikely.

I'd like that idea too. They could easily then be used on shorter distance intercity and regional services, and I'd find them really quite nice on such services

Excuse my will to see them stay in service; I very much have an "if she's worn out, upgrade her and if she's broken, repair her" attitude to any machine of any sort not to mention their legacy and my fondness of them :P