Class 387

[MatthewRead]

Apparently not. Going to Southern.

Hope they get refurbished they need it:-x

 

[Class377/5]

But they have never nor will they run for 'Southern' (neither the previous company, nor the current brand) so my comment stands.
As for state of play, so far we have 107 ordered ....

You are of course correct - my error - put it down to my old age!
I did however put inverted commas round Southern - I still consider that Brighton is a 'Southern' depot but I accept that the 387/1s are 'Thameslink' units at present although they will be 'GN' units (HE based) soon and will not be going to GW
Sorry
Interesting the 'so far' in your comment above!
Brian

There's going to be lots of interesting stuff happening and not all of it is decided yet.

 

[physics34]

Hope they get refurbished they need it:-x

Suspect they will just get a "refresh" just like the other southern ones did.... although the first ones to get the refresh are now tatty again!

 

[ScotGG]

Southeastern doesn't need to obtain the 365s, it got other stock which, if it happens, the new Thameslink routes, means it's getting more stock than it asked for on best case proposal.

But that's the thing with Southeastern and that franchise. If it happens. Which in recent years it never seems to to any great degree so crowding increases and will get worse from August.

Gaps of 20 minutes in the peaks at fast growing places like Deptford will start in 3 months due to Thameslink work at London Bridge. Perhaps that can't be helped, but to then have the first train after 20 minutes be only 10 carriages due to stopping at Woolwich Dockyard (which really needs sorting now), or lack of stock, is far from good.

And they lack stock to have many other metro trains at 12 carriages on the Bexleyheath line which will also be badly affected. Same with Hayes and Sidcup.

The plans needed finalising long ago to ensure improvements are already underway.

Surprise orders (or sped up) could be done for FGW, c2c etc but not SE somehow going back years.

 

[MatthewRead]

Suspect they will just get a "refresh" just like the other southern ones did.... although the first ones to get the refresh are now tatty again!

Exactly where as the SouthEastern white 375s are still in good condition yet they are getting refreshed and the Southern units are terrible and need to be refurbished!

 

[Class 466]

Exactly where as the SouthEastern white 375s are still in good condition yet they are getting refreshed and the Southern units are terrible and need to be refurbished!

Good condition being - worn away carpets, patched up external and internal paintwork, peeling vinyl on the doors, with an old musty smell inside to boot!

In comparison, the 7 odd SN 377s I have been on in the past week or so have all still been very smart inside...

 

[MatthewRead]

Good condition being - worn away carpets, patched up external and internal paintwork, peeling vinyl on the doors, with an old musty smell inside to boot!

In comparison, the 7 odd SN 377s I have been on in the past week or so have all still been very smart inside...

Even the newer 377/6s and 7s are in poor condition as are the 387s even the new ones for Gatwick Express are poor.
GTR and Southern need to introduce a deep clean on their trains like other TOCs

 

[Class377/5]

The plans needed finalising long ago to ensure improvements are already underway.

Surprise orders (or sped up) could be done for FGW, c2c etc but not SE somehow going back years.

SE has had new stock while actually having some routes taken off it meaning its pool of resources have actually increased.

As for new stock, did you miss the 395s? And they aren't all working on purely HS services either.

Exactly where as the SouthEastern white 375s are still in good condition yet they are getting refreshed and the Southern units are terrible and need to be refurbished!

Southern 377s have only finished refurbishment work last year remember. TL 377/5 have now been started.

 

[MatthewRead]

SE has had new stock while actually having some routes taken off it meaning its pool of resources have actually increased.

As for new stock, did you miss the 395s? And they aren't all working on purely HS services either.



Southern 377s have only finished refurbishment work last year remember. TL 377/5 have now been started.

But all of Southern's trains seem to lack cleanliness it's a wonder that hasn't been mentioned by the complaining passengers. After all First Great western were critized over it why aren't Southern?

 

[GodAtum]

Why do Thameslink 387s only have 1st class at one end, instead of both?

 

[ScotGG]

SE has had new stock while actually having some routes taken off it meaning its pool of resources have actually increased.

As for new stock, did you miss the 395s? And they aren't all working on purely HS services either.



Southern 377s have only finished refurbishment work last year remember. TL 377/5 have now been started.

I'm a metro user. 395s are of almost no relevance. And its metro routes which are seeing far higher growth than mainline or HS1 routes.

HS1 is often brought up when a lack of investment for metro is mentioned. It's been a curse for fast growing London surburban routes in many ways as it seems to deprive improvements there with it being a both a money sink (harming business cases across SE) and a flagship so the powers that be think the franchise is well catered for with nice fast shiny trains.

The change in routes has seen marginal changes. Still many 6 car peak services out of Vic (or often 4) and less than needed out of other termini. They desperately need longer metro services across the board and a firm plan for it. It's all so vague and has been for years.

 

[physics34]

SE has had new stock while actually having some routes taken off it meaning its pool of resources have actually increased.

As for new stock, did you miss the 395s? And they aren't all working on purely HS services either.



Southern 377s have only finished refurbishment work last year remember. TL 377/5 have now been started.

does that mean removal of FCC vinyls or repainting?

 

[387star]

does that mean removal of FCC vinyls or repainting?

They need it creaking seat springs

 

[Class 170101]

Is this right...

GTR 387s go to the GN side, 377/5s future unknown

GWR gets all new build 387s 8 we always knew about, 14 from Porterbrook speculative order and 23 additional units= 45 in total for GWR. Meaning likely no 365s to GWR? shortfall of five units

Six 387s for C2C temporarily

But they have never nor will they run for 'Southern' (neither the previous company, nor the current brand) so my comment stands. I think your confusing the Thameslink 387/1 that are based at Lovers for Thameslink ONLY work with GTR's 387/2 fleet that works out of Victoria (and were ordered by GTR not the disbanded New Southern franchise).

As for state of play, so far we have 107 ordered with the spilt as follows;

• 29x 387/1 for GTR
• 27x 387/2 for GTR GX services
• 6x 387/x for c2c (home post 2019 unknown)
• 45x 387/x for GWR

I would suggest the shortfall of five units could be covered by c2c's six 387s post 2019. Assuming of course c2c get brand new units to cover their franchise commitment and not their franchise commitment less the six 387s already lined up.

 

[Class377/5]

Why do Thameslink 387s only have 1st class at one end, instead of both?

Because Thameslink units have first class in one end not both. Same with 319 and 377s.

I'm a metro user. 395s are of almost no relevance. And its metro routes which are seeing far higher growth than mainline or HS1 routes.

HS1 is often brought up when a lack of investment for metro is mentioned. It's been a curse for fast growing London surburban routes in many ways as it seems to deprive improvements there with it being a both a money sink (harming business cases across SE) and a flagship so the powers that be think the franchise is well catered for with nice fast shiny trains.

The change in routes has seen marginal changes. Still many 6 car peak services out of Vic (or often 4) and less than needed out of other termini. They desperately need longer metro services across the board and a firm plan for it. It's all so vague and has been for years.

The Metro area has benefitted indirectly. If you have less services to run with the same amount of stock you increase where you can. Simply staying because you don't use the new units you seen no benefit is ignorant at best as your area (but perhaps not your daily train) will have benefitted in some way.

does that mean removal of FCC vinyls or repainting?

Not likely as they are painted purple so you won't actually gain anything expect the extra costs of removal and applying a new logo.

 

[ScotGG]

Its not ignorant as it isn't just my train, or even line. Metro has seen capacity cuts across the board with less services able to run. The Greenwich line particularly at peak times. With that happening decent forward planning would have ensured all remaining services were 12 carriages. They are not. Lack of stock and unsuitable stock/infrastructure issues were not solved so now a real squeeze is underway, getting worse soon.

It's affecting the whole area. Any change in routes/more stock is not being felt in metro areas for most.

 

[swt_passenger]

I would suggest the shortfall of five units could be covered by c2c's six 387s post 2019. Assuming of course c2c get brand new units to cover their franchise commitment and not their franchise commitment less the six 387s already lined up.

GWR's shortfall on 4 car EMUs is 13 units though, the poster you were replying to hadn't counted the whole original numbers as shown in the franchise agreement, which were 29 x 387/1 from GTR, 8 x new build 387/x, and 21 x 365s - total of 58.

 

[D365]

Don't forget the additional IEP/AT300 five-car units that are likely to be ordered.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't forget the additional IEP/AT300 five-car units that are likely to be ordered.

I'm not forgetting the additional IEPs, simply correcting the above calculation that the 'shortfall' is only 5 units so the 6 x 'temporary c2c units' will solve the 'problem'.

Extra IEPs is clearly the highly probable solution, but it would still have to cover the capacity of 13 x 4 car EMUs, not 5, IYSWIM...

 

[GodAtum]

Because Thameslink units have first class in one end not both. Same with 319 and 377s.

I really hate the design decision. At least Southern has 1st on both ends!

 

[swt_passenger]

I really hate the design decision. At least Southern has 1st on both ends!

Not on every class though, AIUI 377/6 and /7 have a larger 'first' area but at only one end. This has led to criticisms of them in other threads, not least because the external markings weren't clear.

EG this one that you started: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=120987

 

[southern442]

Not on every class though, AIUI 377/6 and /7 have a larger 'first' area but at only one end. This has led to criticisms of them in other threads, not least because the external markings weren't clear.

Their first class is hardly ever used though, and even when it is, most people can't tell the difference and sit there anyway.

 

[trainmania100]

Can anyone confirm to me if this is the modified class 387 returning?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97285/2016/06/12/advanced

5O13 10:48 PETERBORO MAINT SHED GBRF - 16:00 LOVERS WALK T&R.S.M.D running on 12/06/2016

 

[jimm]

I'm not forgetting the additional IEPs, simply correcting the above calculation that the 'shortfall' is only 5 units so the 6 x 'temporary c2c units' will solve the 'problem'.

Extra IEPs is clearly the highly probable solution, but it would still have to cover the capacity of 13 x 4 car EMUs, not 5, IYSWIM...

Doing some rough sums, nine more five-car 800/AT300 trains pretty much does cover that 13 x 4-car emu equivalent.

A four-car 387 seats 220-odd people, a five-car 800/AT300 train seats another 90 or so. The extra seats on nine AT300s would tot up to 3.5 more Class 387s, so ordering nine AT300s would provide 12.5 Class 387 equivalent units, so to speak.

If that happens, then the arrival at a later date of the other six Porterbrook 387s after c2c's new stock turns up would just be extra icing on the GWR cake. Though the extra seats may well come in handy if there is a big 'sparks effect' on traffic in the Thames Valley.

 

[Class377/5]

Can anyone confirm to me if this is the modified class 387 returning?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97285/2016/06/12/advanced

5O13 10:48 PETERBORO MAINT SHED GBRF - 16:00 LOVERS WALK T&R.S.M.D running on 12/06/2016

That's a 66 coming down to tow the first 313 to Wolverton.

Bit difficult for a 387 to do seeing as the mods are done at Bletchley.

Its not ignorant as it isn't just my train, or even line. Metro has seen capacity cuts across the board with less services able to run. The Greenwich line particularly at peak times. With that happening decent forward planning would have ensured all remaining services were 12 carriages. They are not. Lack of stock and unsuitable stock/infrastructure issues were not solved so now a real squeeze is underway, getting worse soon.

It's affecting the whole area. Any change in routes/more stock is not being felt in metro areas for most.

Capacity has changed yes but what was the alternative? Leave London Bridge as it was? You have stated that infrastructure issues were not solved, London Bridge requires massive change and it means real pain for a long term gain.

The forward planning is sadly not as good as it could have been with the original TLP plan of course meaning SE would have been able to pick up some stock prior to London Bridge HL works starting (with possibly 700s running around on various routes too). Last word is I do not agree with the point made of SE being a poor TOC that's seen no stock increase, it has.

But we are now getting well off the point of the thread now.

 

[GodAtum]

Their first class is hardly ever used though, and even when it is, most people can't tell the difference and sit there anyway.

Thameslink 1st seems very heavy used.

 

[jon0844]

Thameslink 1st seems very heavy used.

Yeah, and some of them even have first class tickets!

 

[Class455]

Loads of Class 387/2's have entered service now. Have any other Class 442's followed 442 422 off to Eastleigh for storage?

 

[RobShipway]

Loads of Class 387/2's have entered service now. Have any other Class 442's followed 442 422 off to Eastleigh for storage?

I suggest that you read the thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=127422&page=26 on any news to do with class 442's.

 

[physics34]

Their first class is hardly ever used though, and even when it is, most people can't tell the difference and sit there anyway.

well this is the vicious circle.

Maybe if the 1st class was better, more people would look at it and buy a ticket for it nevt time!!! Im sure they are losing out on a bit of revenue, from possible leisure 1st class passengers, because they are too tight to put better seating in and a lamp or something.

This is one of the reason i want a new TOC in. MAybe they would upgrade things like this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not likely as they are painted purple so you won't actually gain anything expect the extra costs of removal and applying a new logo.

obviously i know of the cost issue, but would they want the reminants of FCC to run through to 2021? WOuld they want purple units coupled to southern green ones for another 5 years or so?..thats assuming the 377/5s are still coming back to southern.

I know the lower part of the coaches (the FCC dynamic blocks or what ever they are called) is vinyl but he whole coach is purple. Maybe just the removal of this and some other vinyl applied.