Class 387

[superalbs]

I believe I read somewhere that networkers can't have 2x2 seating, something to do with safety/crash worthiness IIRC.

The GWR networkers are receiving 2+2 seating when they head west.

 

[Class377/5]

I believe I read somewhere that networkers can't have 2x2 seating, something to do with safety/crash worthiness IIRC.

Er the TSGN livery 365 have 2+2 seating so that's another myth.

It's always been regarded as a problem for the next franchise. It would also need some additional stock post East Croydon / Windmill Bridge rebuild in CP6 so make sense to align the 455/313 replacement then as well.

Indeed. GTR expects the failure rates of the 455 to increase towards the end of the franchise. Although some of the changes in Metro routes will mean they are required less too.

 

[ScotGG]

I believe I read somewhere that networkers can't have 2x2 seating, something to do with safety/crash worthiness IIRC.

I so often hear things that can't happen with Southeastern services or its fleet that then happens elsewhere.

No 2x2 seating, but then 365s have it.

No air con on Networker bodies, but then it was installed during a refurb elsewhere (Chiltern?)

No more trains until late 2017. c2c until 2019. Then they kick off and get 6x387's in a few months.

SE Metro is often overlooked - no proper refurbs in how many years? No extra stock in a long time. Growth is very high and the excuses are grating a bit as paths go down for 3 years as London bridge is rebuilt and massive housing developments continue to open. Let's hope this new 387 development finally helps the area.

EDIT: Chiltern refurbed their 165s 10 years back and added air con and replaced some 3x2 with 2x2. SE's DC networkers trundle on at 25+ years of age with no proper work ever being done on some now very tired looking trains.

 

[hwl]

I so often hear things that can't happen with Southeastern services or its fleet that then happens elsewhere.

No 2x2 seating, but then 365s have it.

No air con on Networker bodies, but then it was installed during a refurb elsewhere (Chiltern?)

No more trains until late 2017. c2c until 2019. Then they kick off and get 6x387's in a few months.

SE Metro is often overlooked - no proper refurbs in how many years? No extra stock in a long time. Growth is very high and the excuses are grating a bit as paths go down for 3 years as London bridge is rebuilt and massive housing developments continue to open. Let's hope this new 387 development finally helps the area.

SK's manifesto commitment for TfL to takeover SE Metro services at the end of direct award is probably a key driver for change happening.
Unlike other TfL takeovers given the need for significant extra stock and life in the existing stock a decent refurb sounds probable.

I think from memory that the 3+2 issue may have referred to 1 particular set of seats in the DMUs in that it would cost a lot to solve but wasn't impossible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Er the TSGN livery 365 have 2+2 seating so that's another myth.



Indeed. GTR expects the failure rates of the 455 to increase towards the end of the franchise. Although some of the changes in Metro routes will mean they are required less too.

A few spare 455s in leaf-fall season would certainly be useful and will also help when some 377s next need a big overhaul.

Metro changes = more 10car using 377/3s?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Option 3 plus 15 extra sets for GWR to give a total of 29, plus the 8 we assumed were going to be 387130-137 - total 37.

A posting on wnxx (usually very well informed!) has said that 14 of the 20 Porterbrook speculative order are for GWR, plus an extra 15 units (not the full extra 29 on top of the speculative 20, as I suggested earlier).

So, for the confused (like me!)...
387101-129 with TSGN TL, future unconfirmed after 2018/19.
387201-227 with/for TSGN GatEx
387x01-x08 currently building for GWR
387x09-x22 14 units from Porterbrook speculative order, now for GWR
387x23-x37 15 extra units for GWR
387y01-y06 6 units from Porterbrook speculative order, for C2C until 2019.

How does this tie in with the revised electrification dates on the GW; Wasn't there a danger the that some of the 387/1's would be unable to run when displaced from Thameslink duties due to the delays in electrification?

IMO it makes more sense for TSGN to retain the 29x 387/1's for Great Northern services (their 110mph capability could be useful on the ECML). The following orders could then be built specifically for the GWML and be delivered to take advantage of the electrification milestones and completion dates.

 

[MatthewRead]

How does this tie in with the revised electrification dates on the GW; Wasn't there a danger the that some of the 387/1's would be unable to run when displaced from Thameslink duties due to the delays in electrification?

IMO it makes more sense for TSGN to retain the 29x 387/1's for Great Northern services (their 110mph capability could be useful on the ECML). The following orders could then be built specifically for the GWML and be delivered to take advantage of the electrification milestones and completion dates.

Yes then put 319s on the GWR along with the 365s

 

[Mikey C]

Indeed. GTR expects the failure rates of the 455 to increase towards the end of the franchise. Although some of the changes in Metro routes will mean they are required less too.

Wouldn't it be better to send their 455s off on the same retractioning exercise that the SW ones had then?

 

[cactustwirly]

The GWR networkers are receiving 2+2 seating when they head west.

Yes, but it requires significant/expensive modifications (some safety equipment is stored underneath the seats) hence this is why only 166s will get 2+2

 

[jimm]

Why do Porterbook or GWR need to announce anything? Nothing has really changed as the for them the orders are existing. Bombardier tends to be slow on the announcements of of its follow on options.

Well if I was Porterbrook, I might want to say what I was up to - you know, rather like they did when they placed the initial order for more 387s last year... and GWR might quite like to tell passengers that instead of getting older electric units from elsewhere it will instead receive lots of shiny new ones...

So in other words your sticking your fingers in your ears and saying lalalala to anything bar official. Try to remember that in future when you ask for what's going on then.

Considering some of the things that have been posted here and elsewhere over the years as 'fact' only to turn out to be complete cobblers when there is an official announcement, I prefer to stick to real facts and announcements. Very boring, but there it is. And yes sir, I will remember...:roll:

You have made my point, one is an existing order (the 387s) where one is not an existing order (CAF and TPE haven't signed a deal, just CAF is lead bidder). The two cannot be compared as one is real and the other currently not.

Neither is real in terms of official announcements - show us such an announcement about these 387s and you might have a point - but right now we are still waiting.

The GWR networkers are receiving 2+2 seating when they head west.

Only the Class 166s are due to get 2+2 seats.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, but it requires significant/expensive modifications (some safety equipment is stored underneath the seats) hence this is why only 166s will get 2+2

It's not safety equipment, it's engine coolant header tanks - and I seem to recall Clarence Yard posted in another thread last year that even in the 166s there will still be benches of three seats over these tanks, because they are going to stay put. And the 165s are keeping 3+2 to maximise seating capacity on Bristol commuter services.

 

[jon0844]

I so often hear things that can't happen with Southeastern services or its fleet that then happens elsewhere.

No 2x2 seating, but then 365s have it.

No air con on Networker bodies, but then it was installed during a refurb elsewhere (Chiltern?)

I expect there's a common reason for this, and it's not safety. It's cost.

Air con would add a lot of cost.

Changing the seat bases/frames would cost a lot of money and, perhaps, the new seats would need to be certified (which wouldn't be impossible I'm sure). Currently, they just get new covers (or perhaps new innards too - but definitely the original seats).

One nice change on some 365s is with the first class tables, that have a bit that lifts up so people actually have a chance of getting in/out easily.

 

[palmersears]

Caught my first glimpse of these today, with 387222 sitting at Stafford at about 16:30. Only comment I can make is that the fronts seem to make very good fly catchers!

To satisfy the spotter in me, does anybody know the other unit number?

 

[Aws87024]

To satisfy the spotter in me, does anybody know the other unit number?

Should be 387223.

 

[physics34]

So I heard from a source the other day that 387/1s are staying with southern to allow the early withdrawal of 313s and 455s over the next 4 years...

The clue backing this up is that I will shortly be doing a 387 conversation course and I'm a southern driver not a gat-ex or thameslink driver.

 

[hwl]

So I heard from a source the other day that 387/1s are staying with southern to allow the early withdrawal of 313s and 455s over the next 4 years...

The clue backing this up is that I will shortly be doing a 387 conversation course and I'm a southern driver not a gat-ex or thameslink driver.

1st April was about 8 weeks ago.

 

[Class377/5]

So I heard from a source the other day that 387/1s are staying with southern to allow the early withdrawal of 313s and 455s over the next 4 years...

The clue backing this up is that I will shortly be doing a 387 conversation course and I'm a southern driver not a gat-ex or thameslink driver.

There are no 387s with Southern so any rumours of them staying have to be false as they don't have them in the first place! GTR is to retain the 387/1 but they are going to GN. Only Southern drivers who need to know 387 are ones who driver 387/1 on the 1Axx services GatEx. This has been planned for years.

No 313/455 withdrawal is currently planned for GTR.

 

[D365]

If anything, since GN is no longer supposed to be taking any, surely the Class 377s currently on Thameslink would be more effective to cascade back? As [I assume] they won't require driver retraining.

 

[hwl]

If anything, since GN is no longer supposed to be taking any, surely the Class 377s currently on Thameslink would be more effective to cascade back? As [I assume] they won't require driver retraining.

Not that many surplus 377s once all the 365s have gone. (But they are more useful on Southern). Mindyou a couple of extra 387 on GatEx so they could all go 12car possibly wouldn't go a miss (may be 4 needed to do this ).

 

[D365]

Not that many surplus 377s once all the 365s have gone. (But they are more useful on Southern).

Once the 29 Class 387/1s have transferred to Great Northern, is it known yet whether the remainder of the fleet will consist of 365s, 377/5s or (possibly) additional 387s?

 

[physics34]

There are no 387s with Southern so any rumours of them staying have to be false as they don't have them in the first place! GTR is to retain the 387/1 but they are going to GN. Only Southern drivers who need to know 387 are ones who driver 387/1 on the 1Axx services GatEx. This has been planned for years.

No 313/455 withdrawal is currently planned for GTR.

Sub leased to TL from southern, so technically they are staying.

Info from GTR training staff so don't shoot the messenger.

 

[southern442]

Sub leased to TL from southern, so technically they are staying.

Info from GTR training staff so don't shoot the messenger.

Is it still a sublease now that they are basically the same franchise?

 

[GodAtum]

Why was a gatEx attached to a Thameslink today? I saw a Brigton service at East Croydon around 1850 (I think the 1W51).

 

[bengley]

Why was a gatEx attached to a Thameslink today? I saw a Brigton service at East Croydon around 1850 (I think the 1W51).

TL have been running them for months

 

[postye]

Why was a gatEx attached to a Thameslink today? I saw a Brigton service at East Croydon around 1850 (I think the 1W51).

387201-203 are on log term loan to Thameslink to allow the 387/1 fleet to undergo software modifications

 

[Class 466]

Once the 29 Class 387/1s have transferred to Great Northern, is it known yet whether the remainder of the fleet will consist of 365s, 377/5s or (possibly) additional 387s?

The 377/5s won't necessarily be heading to GN now.

 

[Skimble19]

There are no 387s with Southern so any rumours of them staying have to be false as they don't have them in the first place! GTR is to retain the 387/1 but they are going to GN. Only Southern drivers who need to know 387 are ones who driver 387/1 on the 1Axx services GatEx. This has been planned for years.

No 313/455 withdrawal is currently planned for GTR.

If the 387/1s are heading to GN, is this instead of, or as well as the 377/5s? Wonder where this will leave the 365s.. Will be a shame to see them go but the 387s are a fitting replacement, which from a personal level I would rather have over the 377/5s because of the better interior spec

 

[D365]

If the 387/1s are heading to GN, is this instead of, or as well as the 377/5s? Wonder where this will leave the 365s..

That is exactly what I'm wondering, as well as the quantity of the remaining units. 29 x 387/1 but original planning was for 38 x 365/377

 

[jon0844]

If the 387/1s are heading to GN, is this instead of, or as well as the 377/5s? Wonder where this will leave the 365s.. Will be a shame to see them go but the 387s are a fitting replacement, which from a personal level I would rather have over the 377/5s because of the better interior spec

The 377/5s look quite worn and tired already. Nothing a refresh couldn't sort, but I'd sooner have new trains in the first place.

Will we see any stock changes by the December 2016 timetable change or is it all happening next year when we hopefully see some 700s too on GN?

 

[Class377/5]

If the 387/1s are heading to GN, is this instead of, or as well as the 377/5s? Wonder where this will leave the 365s.. Will be a shame to see them go but the 387s are a fitting replacement, which from a personal level I would rather have over the 377/5s because of the better interior spec

387/1 instead of 377s.

Sub leased to TL from southern, so technically they are staying.

Info from GTR training staff so don't shoot the messenger.

No, technically they are not staying as Southern have never had 387s. FCC and now GTR has them but Southern brand doesn't use them. As for sub leasing, that's something that happens between difference companies. Southern and Thameslink (brands) are all part of the same company, GTR.

I suggest your ignore what you've been told over the cascade as the 387s were never going to be put in a Southern pool. For a start you can't use them with any other 377 in service making them difficult to use. For reference the 377 and 387 work as well with each other as 319 and a 465.

 

[D365]

387/1 instead of 377s.

Since there's more 387/1s than there are 377/5s, does that mean that more 365s will be replaced (as 21 units were planned to be released to GWR originally), or will the future Great Northern fleet be larger than originally planned?

I suggest your ignore what you've been told over the cascade as the 387s were never going to be put in a Southern pool. For a start you can't use them with any other 377 in service making them difficult to use. For reference the 377 and 387 work as well with each other as 319 and a 465.

Is there any reason why the 387s were not specified to be compatible with 'traditional' Class 377s?

 

[AM9]

Since there's more 387/1s than there are 377/5s, does that mean that more 365s will be replaced (as 21 units were planned to be released to GWR originally), or will the future Great Northern fleet be larger than originally planned?



Is there any reason why the 387s were not specified to be compatible with 'traditional' Class 377s?

Isn't that because they are of a later design, i.e. they have a control system that is similar to the 379s rather than the 10+ year old 377/1s.